Refugees and refuge.

[MoreCoffee]

Obadiah 1:10-14 For the slaughter and violence done to your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off for ever. 11 On the day that you stood aside, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth, and foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem, you too were like one of them. 12 But you should not have gloated over your brother on the day of his misfortune; you should not have rejoiced over the people of Judah on the day of their ruin; you should not have boasted on the day of distress. 13 You should not have entered the gate of my people on the day of their calamity; you should not have joined in the gloating over Judah's disaster on the day of his calamity; you should not have looted his goods on the day of his calamity. 14 You should not have stood at the crossings to cut off his fugitives; you should not have handed over his survivors on the day of distress.

Numbers 35:9-34 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you cross the Jordan into the land of Canaan, 11 then you shall select cities to be cities of refuge for you, that the manslayer who kills any person without intent may flee there. 12 The cities shall be for you a refuge from the avenger, that the manslayer may not die until he stands before the congregation for judgment. 13 And the cities that you give shall be your six cities of refuge. 14 You shall give three cities beyond the Jordan, and three cities in the land of Canaan, to be cities of refuge. 15 These six cities shall be for refuge for the people of Israel, and for the stranger and for the sojourner among them, that anyone who kills any person without intent may flee there. 16 "But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 17 And if he struck him down with a stone tool that could cause death, and he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 18 Or if he struck him down with a wooden tool that could cause death, and he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 19 The avenger of blood shall himself put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. 20 And if he pushed him out of hatred or hurled something at him, lying in wait, so that he died, 21 or in enmity struck him down with his hand, so that he died, then he who struck the blow shall be put to death. He is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him. 22 "But if he pushed him suddenly without enmity, or hurled anything on him without lying in wait 23 or used a stone that could cause death, and without seeing him dropped it on him, so that he died, though he was not his enemy and did not seek his harm, 24 then the congregation shall judge between the manslayer and the avenger of blood, in accordance with these rules. 25 And the congregation shall rescue the manslayer from the hand of the avenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to his city of refuge to which he had fled, and he shall live in it until the death of the high priest who was anointed with the holy oil. 26 But if the manslayer shall at any time go beyond the boundaries of his city of refuge to which he fled, 27 and the avenger of blood finds him outside the boundaries of his city of refuge, and the avenger of blood kills the manslayer, he shall not be guilty of blood. 28 For he must remain in his city of refuge until the death of the high priest, but after the death of the high priest the manslayer may return to the land of his possession. 29 And these things shall be for a statute and rule for you throughout your generations in all your dwelling places. 30 "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 31 Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer, who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death. 32 And you shall accept no ransom for him who has fled to his city of refuge, that he may return to dwell in the land before the death of the high priest. 33 You shall not pollute the land in which you live, for blood pollutes the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of the one who shed it. 34 You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell, for I the LORD dwell in the midst of the people of Israel."

Make room not walls. Be welcoming not hostile.

 

[MennoSota]

Obadiah 1:10-14 For the slaughter and violence done to your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off for ever. 11 On the day that you stood aside, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth, and foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem, you too were like one of them. 12 But you should not have gloated over your brother on the day of his misfortune; you should not have rejoiced over the people of Judah on the day of their ruin; you should not have boasted on the day of distress. 13 You should not have entered the gate of my people on the day of their calamity; you should not have joined in the gloating over Judah's disaster on the day of his calamity; you should not have looted his goods on the day of his calamity. 14 You should not have stood at the crossings to cut off his fugitives; you should not have handed over his survivors on the day of distress.

Numbers 35:9-34 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you cross the Jordan into the land of Canaan, 11 then you shall select cities to be cities of refuge for you, that the manslayer who kills any person without intent may flee there. 12 The cities shall be for you a refuge from the avenger, that the manslayer may not die until he stands before the congregation for judgment. 13 And the cities that you give shall be your six cities of refuge. 14 You shall give three cities beyond the Jordan, and three cities in the land of Canaan, to be cities of refuge. 15 These six cities shall be for refuge for the people of Israel, and for the stranger and for the sojourner among them, that anyone who kills any person without intent may flee there. 16 "But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 17 And if he struck him down with a stone tool that could cause death, and he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 18 Or if he struck him down with a wooden tool that could cause death, and he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 19 The avenger of blood shall himself put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. 20 And if he pushed him out of hatred or hurled something at him, lying in wait, so that he died, 21 or in enmity struck him down with his hand, so that he died, then he who struck the blow shall be put to death. He is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him. 22 "But if he pushed him suddenly without enmity, or hurled anything on him without lying in wait 23 or used a stone that could cause death, and without seeing him dropped it on him, so that he died, though he was not his enemy and did not seek his harm, 24 then the congregation shall judge between the manslayer and the avenger of blood, in accordance with these rules. 25 And the congregation shall rescue the manslayer from the hand of the avenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to his city of refuge to which he had fled, and he shall live in it until the death of the high priest who was anointed with the holy oil. 26 But if the manslayer shall at any time go beyond the boundaries of his city of refuge to which he fled, 27 and the avenger of blood finds him outside the boundaries of his city of refuge, and the avenger of blood kills the manslayer, he shall not be guilty of blood. 28 For he must remain in his city of refuge until the death of the high priest, but after the death of the high priest the manslayer may return to the land of his possession. 29 And these things shall be for a statute and rule for you throughout your generations in all your dwelling places. 30 "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 31 Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer, who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death. 32 And you shall accept no ransom for him who has fled to his city of refuge, that he may return to dwell in the land before the death of the high priest. 33 You shall not pollute the land in which you live, for blood pollutes the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of the one who shed it. 34 You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell, for I the LORD dwell in the midst of the people of Israel."

Make room not walls. Be welcoming not hostile.

I agree, which is why I am suggesting we place everyone on a slow boat to Australia.

 

[atpollard]

I agree, which is why I am suggesting we place everyone on a slow boat to Australia.

Australia just leaves them on the boats ... that was how they “welcomed” unwanted refugees.

 

[psalms 91]

Obadiah 1:10-14 For the slaughter and violence done to your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off for ever. 11 On the day that you stood aside, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth, and foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem, you too were like one of them. 12 But you should not have gloated over your brother on the day of his misfortune; you should not have rejoiced over the people of Judah on the day of their ruin; you should not have boasted on the day of distress. 13 You should not have entered the gate of my people on the day of their calamity; you should not have joined in the gloating over Judah's disaster on the day of his calamity; you should not have looted his goods on the day of his calamity. 14 You should not have stood at the crossings to cut off his fugitives; you should not have handed over his survivors on the day of distress.

Numbers 35:9-34 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you cross the Jordan into the land of Canaan, 11 then you shall select cities to be cities of refuge for you, that the manslayer who kills any person without intent may flee there. 12 The cities shall be for you a refuge from the avenger, that the manslayer may not die until he stands before the congregation for judgment. 13 And the cities that you give shall be your six cities of refuge. 14 You shall give three cities beyond the Jordan, and three cities in the land of Canaan, to be cities of refuge. 15 These six cities shall be for refuge for the people of Israel, and for the stranger and for the sojourner among them, that anyone who kills any person without intent may flee there. 16 "But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 17 And if he struck him down with a stone tool that could cause death, and he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 18 Or if he struck him down with a wooden tool that could cause death, and he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 19 The avenger of blood shall himself put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. 20 And if he pushed him out of hatred or hurled something at him, lying in wait, so that he died, 21 or in enmity struck him down with his hand, so that he died, then he who struck the blow shall be put to death. He is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him. 22 "But if he pushed him suddenly without enmity, or hurled anything on him without lying in wait 23 or used a stone that could cause death, and without seeing him dropped it on him, so that he died, though he was not his enemy and did not seek his harm, 24 then the congregation shall judge between the manslayer and the avenger of blood, in accordance with these rules. 25 And the congregation shall rescue the manslayer from the hand of the avenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to his city of refuge to which he had fled, and he shall live in it until the death of the high priest who was anointed with the holy oil. 26 But if the manslayer shall at any time go beyond the boundaries of his city of refuge to which he fled, 27 and the avenger of blood finds him outside the boundaries of his city of refuge, and the avenger of blood kills the manslayer, he shall not be guilty of blood. 28 For he must remain in his city of refuge until the death of the high priest, but after the death of the high priest the manslayer may return to the land of his possession. 29 And these things shall be for a statute and rule for you throughout your generations in all your dwelling places. 30 "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 31 Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer, who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death. 32 And you shall accept no ransom for him who has fled to his city of refuge, that he may return to dwell in the land before the death of the high priest. 33 You shall not pollute the land in which you live, for blood pollutes the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of the one who shed it. 34 You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell, for I the LORD dwell in the midst of the people of Israel."

Make room not walls. Be welcoming not hostile.

I agree we dont need a wall but I also agree that we cant be flooded with illegals either.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I agree we dont need a wall but I also agree that we cant be flooded with illegals either.

You're right, brother psalms 91. Walls won't work, as the USA and Israel have discovered and as the former East Germany discovered. Floods of refugees is also a problem as Europe discovered in 2015. So how does a Christian think the issues through given the example God gave in ancient Israel?

 

[Albion]

The Berlin Wall actually worked very effectively.

 

[psalms 91]

You're right, brother psalms 91. Walls won't work, as the USA and Israel have discovered and as the former East Germany discovered. Floods of refugees is also a problem as Europe discovered in 2015. So how does a Christian think the issues through given the example God gave in ancient Israel?

Obviously the first thing is to help change the condtions that are making them want to come here and have a strict immigration policy that is enforced but with compassion. Until what drove them here is changed they will keep trying

 

[psalms 91]

The Berlin Wall actually worked very effectively.

Yeah if you want to shoot those who try to cross. Not very christioan I think and tunnels and boats also avoid the problem of the wall

 

[Albion]

Well, I don't care to champion the Berlin Wall!

But it very definitely did reduce the movement of people across the border to a trickle. And while there were shootings that we in this country would not engage in, the wall would have to be considered effective with or without that Communist policy of shooting anyone entering the no-mans zone..

 

[psalms 91]

And of course the smugglers wouldnt dig tunnels, oh wait they already have and Israel has a lot of experience with them as well. Cant see 23 billion being spent on something that will not work anyway

 

[Josiah]

The USA has accepted and embraced more immigrants and refugies than any other nation on the planet and in all history....

The USA has the identical same process for this as virtually every other country..... at one time, people could just "show up" on US soil (I've toured Ellis Island, closed when all concluded that policy was inhumane) but now we have he same policy as virtually every other country: One is to visit the USA Embassy or Consulates of their home country (those seeking asylum may visit either in any country, and the UK one if there is not one of the USA)... their application will be processed quickly and first (before those who choose to ignore the policy of virtually every country on the planet). The Embassies and Consulates are authorized to issue various visas and to grant asylum, making it simple, quick, and safe to cross the boarder to fly to the USA an to freely and legally enjoy this great country. Yes, there are those who feel they need to circumvent process and just crash the boarder or enter illegally (they must have valid reasons to conclude their application at the Embassy would not be approved - for example, their horrible criminal record) and there are communist, leftest countries financing some of this for reasons we can only image.

But the reality remains: By far, the USA has legally embraced and welcomed more immigrants and those seeking asylum than any other country.



- Josiah




.

 

[psalms 91]

The USA has accepted and embraced more immigrants and refugies than any other nation on the planet and in all history....

The USA has the identical same process for this as virtually every other country..... at one time, people could just "show up" on US soil (I've toured Ellis Island, closed when all concluded that policy was inhumane) but now we have he same policy as virtually every other country: One is to visit the USA Embassy or Consulates of their home country (those seeking asylum may visit either in any country, and the UK one if there is not one of the USA)... their application will be processed quickly and first (before those who choose to ignore the policy of virtually every country on the planet). The Embassies and Consulates are authorized to issue various visas and to grant asylum, making it simple, quick, and safe to cross the boarder to fly to the USA an to freely and legally enjoy this great country. Yes, there are those who feel they need to circumvent process and just crash the boarder or enter illegally (they must have valid reasons to conclude their application at the Embassy would not be approved - for example, their horrible criminal record) and there are communist, leftest countries financing some of this for reasons we can only image.

But the reality remains: By far, the USA has legally embraced and welcomed more immigrants and those seeking asylum than any other country.



- Josiah




.

There is truth in what you say Josiah, much truth. The fact is that this is how it should be done but many feel they cant for whatever reason and many are just poor and afflicted by the gangs and even their own government they are not all criminals or communists. I would say that the majority of them are not. Improving conditions in these countries would go a long way towards stopping this and that would be no easy task but it is the long term solution that will work best.

 

[Josiah]

Just CURRENTLY, right now, there are more legal immigrants and refugies living in the USA (37 million) than there are people living in Australia (25 million).

FAR more people have been embraced in the USA as immigrants and refugies than any other country on the planet and in all human history.

 

[psalms 91]

Just CURRENTLY, right now, there are more legal immigrants and refugies living in the USA (37 million) than there are people living in Australia (25 million).

FAR more people have been embraced in the USA as immigrants and refugies than any other country on the planet and in all human history.

This is true and as a prosperous country with freedom we attract the most as well. We cannot sustain an open border policy but at the same time there has to be compasson and reason used when it comes to deportation and admittance as well. Jesus said about treating the least of these I believe and mentioned how we treat the poor and widows as well, we should act accordingly as a country and for the most part have but recently some of what has been done has not lived up to that standard.

 

[NewCreation435]

Obadiah 1:10-14 For the slaughter and violence done to your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off for ever. 11 On the day that you stood aside, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth, and foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem, you too were like one of them. 12 But you should not have gloated over your brother on the day of his misfortune; you should not have rejoiced over the people of Judah on the day of their ruin; you should not have boasted on the day of distress. 13 You should not have entered the gate of my people on the day of their calamity; you should not have joined in the gloating over Judah's disaster on the day of his calamity; you should not have looted his goods on the day of his calamity. 14 You should not have stood at the crossings to cut off his fugitives; you should not have handed over his survivors on the day of distress.

Numbers 35:9-34 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 "Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you cross the Jordan into the land of Canaan, 11 then you shall select cities to be cities of refuge for you, that the manslayer who kills any person without intent may flee there. 12 The cities shall be for you a refuge from the avenger, that the manslayer may not die until he stands before the congregation for judgment. 13 And the cities that you give shall be your six cities of refuge. 14 You shall give three cities beyond the Jordan, and three cities in the land of Canaan, to be cities of refuge. 15 These six cities shall be for refuge for the people of Israel, and for the stranger and for the sojourner among them, that anyone who kills any person without intent may flee there. 16 "But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 17 And if he struck him down with a stone tool that could cause death, and he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 18 Or if he struck him down with a wooden tool that could cause death, and he died, he is a murderer. The murderer shall be put to death. 19 The avenger of blood shall himself put the murderer to death; when he meets him, he shall put him to death. 20 And if he pushed him out of hatred or hurled something at him, lying in wait, so that he died, 21 or in enmity struck him down with his hand, so that he died, then he who struck the blow shall be put to death. He is a murderer. The avenger of blood shall put the murderer to death when he meets him. 22 "But if he pushed him suddenly without enmity, or hurled anything on him without lying in wait 23 or used a stone that could cause death, and without seeing him dropped it on him, so that he died, though he was not his enemy and did not seek his harm, 24 then the congregation shall judge between the manslayer and the avenger of blood, in accordance with these rules. 25 And the congregation shall rescue the manslayer from the hand of the avenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to his city of refuge to which he had fled, and he shall live in it until the death of the high priest who was anointed with the holy oil. 26 But if the manslayer shall at any time go beyond the boundaries of his city of refuge to which he fled, 27 and the avenger of blood finds him outside the boundaries of his city of refuge, and the avenger of blood kills the manslayer, he shall not be guilty of blood. 28 For he must remain in his city of refuge until the death of the high priest, but after the death of the high priest the manslayer may return to the land of his possession. 29 And these things shall be for a statute and rule for you throughout your generations in all your dwelling places. 30 "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 31 Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer, who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death. 32 And you shall accept no ransom for him who has fled to his city of refuge, that he may return to dwell in the land before the death of the high priest. 33 You shall not pollute the land in which you live, for blood pollutes the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of the one who shed it. 34 You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell, for I the LORD dwell in the midst of the people of Israel."

Make room not walls. Be welcoming not hostile.

Looks like your taking some verses out of context to try to make a political point. If anything, the refuge situation tells me that the situation where these people lived is intolerable and we should do more as a country to help them deal with corruption and violence where they were living rather than doing absolutely nothing which is what the US response has been to our neighbors to the south

 

[tango]

I always think of two people from my own past.

One was sent to the UK as a refugee when he was under 10 to escape the civil war. I don't know how he got to the UK or how he was sent but as far as I could tell he had no immediate family with him. I worked with him as an adult, when he had obviously settled and worked in a professional job, having become a productive member of UK society. I see no reason not to welcome people like him, wherever they come from.

And then there was the guy who came as a refugee and did little more than learn how to game the system. All sorts of things provided for free, everything translated into their native language (free of charge, naturally) and for the time I knew him it was clear he had no intention of working. It's easy to see why countries don't want people like that in any number.

Of course when you also get the criminals who ended up spending time in British jails because they couldn't be deported due to human rights (apparently the poor dears would face persecution in their homelands), one has to wonder what sort of person repays the kindness of their new host nation offering them asylum by committing serious crimes there. Personally I'd say if you're convicted of serious crimes against the host nation (and I'm talking about things like rape and murder, not petty theft or similar) then you get deported whatever you might face back at home.

 

[tango]

Just another thought, the call to Christians is to help people, not to vote for politicians who promise to force someone else to help people. If you're so keen to help refugees, open your home and offer them a place to live. If all you want to do is force someone else to pay for a place for them to live, you don't get to claim to be doing the Christian thing.

 

[MennoSota]

It should be noted that Obadiah had nothing to do with immigration issues. To quote from Obadiah as a prooftext is just silly.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Looks like your taking some verses out of context to try to make a political point. If anything, the refuge situation tells me that the situation where these people lived is intolerable and we should do more as a country to help them deal with corruption and violence where they were living rather than doing absolutely nothing which is what the US response has been to our neighbors to the south

How much extra context do you want?

 

[MennoSota]

Looks like your taking some verses out of context to try to make a political point. If anything, the refuge situation tells me that the situation where these people lived is intolerable and we should do more as a country to help them deal with corruption and violence where they were living rather than doing absolutely nothing which is what the US response has been to our neighbors to the south

You are correct, however, in other places, this becomes the role of the UN. This is an international crisis and therefore the effort to assist these person's in crisis should be lead by an international body such as the UN.