Problematic verses?

[tango]

What do people do when they find verses of the Bible that don't seem to fit in with their preferred interpretation, or that clash with everyday experience?

I always figure that Scripture must support Scripture, so if there's a conflict it means we've missed something and there must be another way of interpreting it. I've come across a few people who tend to just gloss over other explanations because they don't cope very well with having a worldview challenged. It's a few encounters like that, that caused my signature to evolve into what it is now.

 

[Ruth]

Being that the bible was written a few thousand years ago I've found that it does not support social rights of many, one being gay people. Society is adjusting to it better than ever and in the times of the Bible people were taught it's an abomination. There are some holy people that are accepting it now a days and I think that is just wonderful. Judge not and thee shall not be judged. More or less.

 

[tango]

Being that the bible was written a few thousand years ago I've found that it does not support social rights of many, one being gay people. Society is adjusting to it better than ever and in the times of the Bible people were taught it's an abomination. There are some holy people that are accepting it now a days and I think that is just wonderful. Judge not and thee shall not be judged. More or less.

In OT times physical homosexual acts were described as an abomination. In NT times Paul didn't seem to have much time for homosexuals either, given what he wrote in Rom 1:22-30. There are other passages in the NT that don't paint homosexuals in a very positive light either.

The fact that society changes doesn't mean that God moves with the times, it may just mean that society drifts further from God. Which is pretty much what Jesus said would happen.

"Judge not" needs to be used with a little care, given the context. Jesus talked of trying to remove a speck from our brother's eye while we have a plank in our own, and says we should remove the plank so we can see clearly to remove our brother's speck. He doesn't say we should ignore our brother's speck, just that we need to sort ourselves out first. Certainly in that context I think there's an awful lot of obsessing about homosexuality as if it were The Sin above all other sins, when in reality it's perhaps just a particularly visible sin. If two men walk into church holding hands it's a pretty safe bet they are a gay couple, whereas if a man and a woman walk into church holding hands nobody can tell if she is cheating on him, if he is addicted to pornography, if they are fiddling their taxes, if they speak ill of each other, or whatever else might be going on behind closed doors.

It's easy to point fingers at sins we're unlikely to get caught up in ourselves. As a heterosexual man it's safe to speak against homosexuality because the chances of me ever being caught in a compromising position with another man are vanishingly small. Preaching against adultery is riskier because even with the best intentions I never know if some time in the future some woman is going to throw herself at me at a time I'm particularly vulnerable, at which point I'd face not only the consequences of the indiscretion but the (justified) cries of hypocrisy given I was preaching against that very thing.

 

[psalms 91]

In OT times physical homosexual acts were described as an abomination. In NT times Paul didn't seem to have much time for homosexuals either, given what he wrote in Rom 1:22-30. There are other passages in the NT that don't paint homosexuals in a very positive light either.

The fact that society changes doesn't mean that God moves with the times, it may just mean that society drifts further from God. Which is pretty much what Jesus said would happen.

"Judge not" needs to be used with a little care, given the context. Jesus talked of trying to remove a speck from our brother's eye while we have a plank in our own, and says we should remove the plank so we can see clearly to remove our brother's speck. He doesn't say we should ignore our brother's speck, just that we need to sort ourselves out first. Certainly in that context I think there's an awful lot of obsessing about homosexuality as if it were The Sin above all other sins, when in reality it's perhaps just a particularly visible sin. If two men walk into church holding hands it's a pretty safe bet they are a gay couple, whereas if a man and a woman walk into church holding hands nobody can tell if she is cheating on him, if he is addicted to pornography, if they are fiddling their taxes, if they speak ill of each other, or whatever else might be going on behind closed doors.

It's easy to point fingers at sins we're unlikely to get caught up in ourselves. As a heterosexual man it's safe to speak against homosexuality because the chances of me ever being caught in a compromising position with another man are vanishingly small. Preaching against adultery is riskier because even with the best intentions I never know if some time in the future some woman is going to throw herself at me at a time I'm particularly vulnerable, at which point I'd face not only the consequences of the indiscretion but the (justified) cries of hypocrisy given I was preaching against that very thing.

All true, God does not change and neither should we. The obstacles we overcome in life gives us a powerful testimony of what God has done in our lives and once free we can help otehrs to become free as well

 

[BruceLeiter]

What do people do when they find verses of the Bible that don't seem to fit in with their preferred interpretation, or that clash with everyday experience?

I always figure that Scripture must support Scripture, so if there's a conflict it means we've missed something and there must be another way of interpreting it. I've come across a few people who tend to just gloss over other explanations because they don't cope very well with having a worldview challenged. It's a few encounters like that, that caused my signature to evolve into what it is now.

People tend to set up their reasoning powers as the ultimate test of the truth instead of humbly submitting to the fact that there are mysteries in the Bible that we will never be able to figure out and to which we must submit because God's Word says so--like the Trinity and the divine and human natures of Jesus.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Being that the bible was written a few thousand years ago I've found that it does not support social rights of many, one being gay people. Society is adjusting to it better than ever and in the times of the Bible people were taught it's an abomination. There are some holy people that are accepting it now a days and I think that is just wonderful. Judge not and thee shall not be judged. More or less.

The homosexual lifestyle is clearly unbiblical, but I love everyone, including gay people. That's the distinction that I believe the Bible makes.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Being that the bible was written a few thousand years ago I've found that it does not support social rights of many, one being gay people. Society is adjusting to it better than ever and in the times of the Bible people were taught it's an abomination. There are some holy people that are accepting it now a days and I think that is just wonderful. Judge not and thee shall not be judged. More or less.

I believe that the Bible supports the belief that Christians should love their enemies and refuse to judge or condemn people for their sinful behavior, as Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount. However, we should also take note of and reject sinful lifestyles for ourselves. It's the fine line between both love for all and justice for sins, both of which are God's characteristics.

 

[JustTheFacts]

What do people do when they find verses of the Bible that don't seem to fit in with their preferred interpretation, or that clash with everyday experience?

I always figure that Scripture must support Scripture, so if there's a conflict it means we've missed something and there must be another way of interpreting it. I've come across a few people who tend to just gloss over other explanations because they don't cope very well with having a worldview challenged. It's a few encounters like that, that caused my signature to evolve into what it is now.

I've found that all valid word of God will support the rest in totality make sense too.

 

[Uncle_Sol]

Being that the bible was written a few thousand years ago I've found that it does not support social rights of many, one being gay people. Society is adjusting to it better than ever and in the times of the Bible people were taught it's an abomination. There are some holy people that are accepting it now a days and I think that is just wonderful. Judge not and thee shall not be judged. More or less.

On the specific theme you mentioned and that of posts 3-7:

The Bible used to say dogs by which we knew it didn't mean dogs.
Colloquialisms Paul cites can mean "tops" or "bottoms" as subculture and in those days people really did take their subcultures more seriously than we do now.
"Passion" means actually "carried away"
St Paul was not a Freudian, he was a Roman. My God is not a Freudian.
All his letters were read en route by non recipients.
Readers and hearers knew what individual circumstances he was talking about. His letters aren't treatises.
Just because contractors are telling children that there is something wrong with their emotions and then patronising them for it, that doesnlt mean that is objective reality
(If churches provisionally demoted the sacrament of communion that would simplify things also)
The entire set of questions is how and why to always be Holy Spirit filled, as well as when and why not to intrude in private affairs. Life is too serious for authorities to get wrong.

I think there are lots of other instances, for example mentions of predestination aren't problematic either when you use logical prioritisation (I've been with Hunnius and Arminius since my infancy and thought it was normal Christianity to)

 

[BruceLeiter]

What do people do when they find verses of the Bible that don't seem to fit in with their preferred interpretation, or that clash with everyday experience?

I always figure that Scripture must support Scripture, so if there's a conflict it means we've missed something and there must be another way of interpreting it. I've come across a few people who tend to just gloss over other explanations because they don't cope very well with having a worldview challenged. It's a few encounters like that, that caused my signature to evolve into what it is now.

What do they do, or what should they do? What specific problem with Scripture do you want to discuss?

 

[BruceLeiter]

Being that the bible was written a few thousand years ago I've found that it does not support social rights of many, one being gay people. Society is adjusting to it better than ever and in the times of the Bible people were taught it's an abomination. There are some holy people that are accepting it now a days and I think that is just wonderful. Judge not and thee shall not be judged. More or less.

I believe that the Bible teaches us on the one hand to love our enemies and that we're all equal in status before our God as humans and at the same time, that we have different roles in life as children, parents, wives, husbands, slaves or employees, and masters or bosses. Both are true.

 

[JustTheFacts]

Being that the bible was written a few thousand years ago I've found that it does not support social rights of many, one being gay people. Society is adjusting to it better than ever and in the times of the Bible people were taught it's an abomination. There are some holy people that are accepting it now a days and I think that is just wonderful. Judge not and thee shall not be judged. More or less.

Hello Ruth, The Bible contains the word of God and the word of God does not change over any time period. That means the Words of Jesus mean what they did 2,000 years ago, and Jesus said he did not come to remove or replace the Law, he came to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-20). What Is the Law? Jesus discussed aspects of it throughout his mission. What did Jesus say about sexual relations? From the WEB version in Matthew Chapter 5.

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Jesus also condemned the actions of a woman having sexual relations outside of marriage. I am a male who is attracted to females and I have my guidelines per the Word of God. Females and males attracted to the same sex have the same guidelines through the Law and the words of Jesus. We can’t change the word of God but we can change our behavior. It’s tough for all of us regardless of atttraction.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Hello Ruth, The Bible contains the word of God and the word of God does not change over any time period. That means the Words of Jesus mean what they did 2,000 years ago, and Jesus said he did not come to remove or replace the Law, he came to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17-20). What Is the Law? Jesus discussed aspects of it throughout his mission. What did Jesus say about sexual relations? From the WEB version in Matthew Chapter 5.

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce. 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Jesus also condemned the actions of a woman having sexual relations outside of marriage. I am a male who is attracted to females and I have my guidelines per the Word of God. Females and males attracted to the same sex have the same guidelines through the Law and the words of Jesus. We can’t change the word of God but we can change our behavior. It’s tough for all of us regardless of atttraction.

I agree, JustTheFacts! God has taught me a very effective way to channel our desires only to a spouse and to no other person.
1) As true believers, we are attached to Jesus spiritually (John 15, as a branch to a vine).
2) Thus, we are raised with Jesus to new birth and life (Colossians 3:1--first clause).
3) As a result, we can draw on his resurrection power to make changes in our lives from the old nature to his new one (rest of Colossians 3).
4) Prayer is the key to victory in our Christian lives (for example, Ephesians 6:18-20 and 1 Thessalonians 5:17).
5) As a result, we must pray daily for the Father through Jesus' victory to replace our old-nature qualities with new-nature ones.
6) Jesus' death and resurrection must be the basis for such victory prayers.
7) We must persist in prayer like the widow in Jesus' parable, one of the few in which he explains the story:
Luk 18:1 And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart.
Luk 18:2 He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man.
Luk 18:3 And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’
Luk 18:4 For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor respect man,
Luk 18:5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.’”
Luk 18:6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says.
Luk 18:7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily.