Prayer practises.

[Frankj]

"
So, according to you it is OK for someone to ask you to pray to God for them, and you will do it.
But it's not OK for you to ask someone else to pray to God for you.
You don't see an error with that?"

You are equating some dead person -presumably Christian- that has been declared a saint by men to be the same as a living person that is also a fellow practicing Christian. Matthew 18:20 " For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. ".

'm not seeing any reference to some saint or saints being present in this at all.

When asked how to pray by a disciple, Jesus taught to pray directly to "Our Father" not to some dead person that has been declared holy as a saint (A practice that didn't start until somewhere around the third century as near as I can tell, not something practiced before that).

Is this not good enough? Do you actually need something more tangible than this (as did Dan with their golden calf or the Israelite's in the desert while Moses was absent)?

Falsity is everywhere, it began creeping into the Church from the beginning and has been subtly and progressively taken over sound doctrine for centuries.

Matthew 24:4 " And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.". The first thing Jesus said when asked about the signs of last days.

The words of Jesus override the wisdom of men, particularly in these days we live in.

This is how I believe.

 

[Stephen]

You are equating some dead person -presumably Christian- that has been declared a saint by men to be the same as a living person that is also a fellow practicing Christian.

Are you saying the people in heaven are dead?
But Jesus said ““I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die..” (John 11: 25-26,
And they know what is happening on earth:
"I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance".(Lk 15:7)
They know someone on earth has repented and they are rejoicing./

"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev 5:6)
They are presenting the prayers of the saints (on earth). before the Lamb (Jesus)

As are angels
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Rev 8:3-4)

Matthew 18:20 " For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. ".

Irrelevant comment

'm not seeing any reference to some saint or saints being present in this at all.

Then you are not looking

When asked how to pray by a disciple, Jesus taught to pray directly to "Our Father" not to some dead person that has been declared holy as a saint (A practice that didn't start until somewhere around the third century as near as I can tell, not something practiced before that).

As I said before, it depends what you mean by pray.
When Jesus taught them how to pray he gave them specific words.
Do you only use those specific words?

Is this not good enough? Do you actually need something more tangible than this (as did Dan with their golden calf or the Israelite's in the desert while Moses was absent)?

Falsity is everywhere, it began creeping into the Church from the beginning and has been subtly and progressively taken over sound doctrine for centuries.

Matthew 24:4 " And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.". The first thing Jesus said when asked about the signs of last days.

The words of Jesus override the wisdom of men, particularly in these days we live in.

More irrelevant comments.

This is how I believe.

I believe those in heaven are closer to God than we are.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective? And they are in the very presence of God

 

[Frankj]

"
I believe those in heaven are closer to God than we are.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective? And they are in the very presence of God"

And how do you know who is in heaven? Or whether they are asleep (as Jesus referred to the dead) or alive as conscious persons? And if they have been declared saints by men does God honor that declaration and make them the greatest in heaven with privileges and status above those who only sleep while awaiting judgment? (as for me, I do not have the authority to judge souls and their eternal fate so I do not know who is and who is not in Heaven or even if there is anyone at all there yet)

The Bible says the dead know nothing, why does it say this if it isn't true and true on every level?

Just way too many questions about worshiping and praying to anyone other than the Father in Jesus name arise (Praying directly to Jesus would also be acceptable since he has returned to unity with the Father, but no one prayed to him while he was on earth) or praying to any graven image at all since that image is not and has never been alive.

Why would I pray to anyone other than Jesus and allow the possibility of serious error entering my prayers by doing something I was not told to do by Jesus while he was on earth? The words of Jesus are true and infallible but the words of men should always be considered as fallible and in a distant second place to those spoken by Jesus.

This is how I believe. This is what I strive to live my life in accordance with and I don't think I am wrong to be doing this. I don't condemn anyone else's beliefs, we all see a different part of the elephant, I just offer my own for consideration since that is what my life has led me to believe.

 

[Stephen]

And how do you know who is in heaven? Or whether they are asleep (as Jesus referred to the dead) or alive as conscious persons? And if they have been declared saints by men does God honor that declaration and make them the greatest in heaven with privileges and status above those who only sleep while awaiting judgment? (as for me, I do not have the authority to judge souls and their eternal fate so I do not know who is and who is not in Heaven or even if there is anyone at all there yet)

The Bible says the dead know nothing, why does it say this if it isn't true and true on every level?

Just way too many questions about worshiping and praying to anyone other than the Father in Jesus name arise (Praying directly to Jesus would also be acceptable since he has returned to unity with the Father, but no one prayed to him while he was on earth) or praying to any graven image at all since that image is not and has never been alive.

Why would I pray to anyone other than Jesus and allow the possibility of serious error entering my prayers by doing something I was not told to do by Jesus while he was on earth? The words of Jesus are true and infallible but the words of men should always be considered as fallible and in a distant second place to those spoken by Jesus.

This is how I believe. This is what I strive to live my life in accordance with and I don't think I am wrong to be doing this. I don't condemn anyone else's beliefs, we all see a different part of the elephant, I just offer my own for consideration since that is what my life has led me to believe.

Lots of opinions there. And until you back them up with scripture that's all they are, and not worth arguing about.

Moreover you just keep evading my questions.
Your said "When asked how to pray by a disciple, Jesus taught to pray directly to "Our Father""
I asked "When Jesus taught them how to pray he gave them specific words. Do you only use those specific words?"
No Answer

You ask "And how do you know who is in heaven? Or whether they are asleep (as Jesus referred to the dead) or alive as conscious persons?"
But, as I quoted, Jesus said ““I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die..” (John 11: 25-26)
So don't you believe Jesus?,

Finally, before I give up on this discussion, why do you keep throwing in bits of anti-Catholic bigotry like claiming Catholic pray to graven images?
And
"Falsity is everywhere, it began creeping into the Church from the beginning and has been subtly and progressively taken over sound doctrine for centuries." It may be in your church but not in mine.

 

[Frankj]

""Falsity is everywhere, it began creeping into the Church from the beginning and has been subtly and progressively taken over sound doctrine for centuries." It may be in your church but not in mine."

You are critical of me for stating my opinions that I have learned from the Bible then you conclude your entire post condemning me with your opinion.

Interesting.

Why do Christian discussions always seem to be like Christians throwing scripture at each other the way enemy soldiers throw spears at each other? Nothing but discord and disharmony that places barriers between each other and between ourselves and God, almost never an honest movement to help each other develop a deeper understanding and closer relationship to God. This is the falsity of the Church.

This is why the Church today has no power, the kind of power Jesus spoke of when he said
“Truly I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them."

The falsity of the modern Church is that is has more faith in a D11 CAT than it does in the word of Jesus to accomplish this task, which is why it turns to those things it actually believes gives them power on earth instead of toward the truth of faith and prayer as Jesus taught.

May your day bring you blessings of love and understanding.

 

[BruceLeiter]

No they are not God.
They are not omniscient. If they hear our prayers it is because it is God’s will that they do and He will make it possible.

God makes things known to people as he wills and makes possible.

Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord." And the Lord said to him, "Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, and he has seen a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight." (Acts 9:10-12)

God communicates to Ananias that Paul is praying and that he (Ananias) must go and lay hands on Paul. God communicates to Paul that Ananias will come to him and lay hands on him to receive his sight. Neither are omniscient yet they know things that only God can know. They know because God wills that they know and makes it known to them.

God has only given us glimpses of what goes on in heaven. Paul was taken up into heaven “and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter” (2Cor 12:4). We cannot expect to understand God’s ways in any detail. Yet we do know some things, if not in details.

We know that those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth.
Lk 15:7 & 10
Rev 6:10

We also know that (at least) some of those in heaven are presenting out prayers before the throne.
Rev 5:8 & 8:3
Tobit 12:12

So, where do you find in the Bible that saints and Mary hear your prayers? You refer to two living humans, Paul and Ananias. God could make it happen that dead saints hear people's prayers, but in what passage is it found? And please don't give me the silence of Scripture. If it doesn't say something, you don't know what it doesn't say. Understand?

Your use of Jesus' sayings in Luke 15:7,10 doesn't prove anything. Just because angels experience joy in heaven over a repentant sinner doesn't say how they got the information at all. You are adding to Scripture what is not there.

 

[Stephen]

So, where do you find in the Bible that saints and Mary hear your prayers? You refer to two living humans, Paul and Ananias. God could make it happen that dead saints hear people's prayers, but in what passage is it found? And please don't give me the silence of Scripture. If it doesn't say something, you don't know what it doesn't say. Understand?

Your use of Jesus' sayings in Luke 15:7,10 doesn't prove anything. Just because angels experience joy in heaven over a repentant sinner doesn't say how they got the information at all. You are adding to Scripture what is not there.

Those on heaven are aware of what is happening on earth.
"I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance".(Lk 15:7)
They know someone on earth has repented and they are rejoicing. The point is they know.

"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev 5:6)
They are presenting the prayers of the saints (on earth). before the Lamb (Jesus)

As are angels
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Rev 8:3-4)

I believe those in heaven are closer to God than we are.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective? And they are in the very presence of God

 

[BruceLeiter]

Those on heaven are aware of what is happening on earth.
"I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance".(Lk 15:7)
They know someone on earth has repented and they are rejoicing. The point is they know.

"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev 5:6)
They are presenting the prayers of the saints (on earth). before the Lamb (Jesus)

As are angels
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God." (Rev 8:3-4)

I believe those in heaven are closer to God than we are.
“The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective” (Jas 5:16). Are not those in heaven righteous & therefore their prayers powerful and effective? And they are in the very presence of God

Brother Steven, 1) How do you know that the ones in heaven saw it directly or maybe they heard it from God?
2) It's obvious that it is a metaphor comparing symbolic bowls to prayers, which come up to God, not to the creatures.
3) Yeah, it's an angel, not Mary or the human saints with the prayers that come to God.
4) James wasn't talking about angels, saints, or Mary but about believers on earth:
Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.
Jas 5:18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.

I think that you are trying to stretch Scripture beyond its breaking point to justify the Popes' addition of a tradition apart from the Bible that shouldn't have been added as normative for people's beliefs and lives.

 

[Stephen]

Brother Steven,

It's Stephen

1) How do you know that the ones in heaven saw it directly or maybe they heard it from God?

I've covered this already:

If they hear our prayers it is because it is God’s will that they do and He will make it possible.

As I have already shown, those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth
Lk 15:7 & 10, Rev 6:10 and Heb 12:1

2) It's obvious that it is a metaphor comparing symbolic bowls to prayers, which come up to God, not to the creatures.

The "bowls of prayer" don't "come up to God", they are being presented to God.

3) Yeah, it's an angel, not Mary or the human saints with the prayers that come to God.

"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev 5:6)
They are presenting the prayers of the saints (on earth). before the Lamb (Jesus)

The 24 elders represent the 12 tribes Of Israel of the Old Testament and the 12 Apostles of the New Testament. Thus they represent those holy people of the OT & NT presenting the prayers of those on earth to God.

4) James wasn't talking about angels, saints, or Mary but about believers on earth:
Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
Jas 5:17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.
Jas 5:18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.

So you think that either those in heaven are not righteous, or that God doesn't accept the petitions of the righteous in heaven - only those on earth.

I think that you are trying to stretch Scripture beyond its breaking point to justify the Popes' addition of a tradition apart from the Bible that shouldn't have been added as normative for people's beliefs and lives.

You can think that but you are wrong.

 

[BruceLeiter]

It's Stephen

I've covered this already:



As I have already shown, those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth
Lk 15:7 & 10, Rev 6:10 and Heb 12:1



The "bowls of prayer" don't "come up to God", they are being presented to God.



The 24 elders represent the 12 tribes Of Israel of the Old Testament and the 12 Apostles of the New Testament. Thus they represent those holy people of the OT & NT presenting the prayers of those on earth to God.



So you think that either those in heaven are not righteous, or that God doesn't accept the petitions of the righteous in heaven - only those on earth.


You can think that but you are wrong.

We aren't getting anywhere here in understanding each other, so I'm going stop. But I'm thankful that you folks, Stephen, do believe in the Trinity and all the most important Christian beliefs.