Pastors

[Tigger]

Education by the spirit is disregarded as worthless not mans degrees

Sure the Holy Spirit teaches all believers but why wouldn't someone want a Pastor that appreciated the giants in the faith and learn from those that went before them? That's not saying they should stop being Bereans and question everything that's being taught to them.

 

[Brighten04]

My experience is that wisdom is held in high regard among the faithful and hard earned degrees in theology and the ancient tongues in which the holy scriptures were written is also accounted as valuable though the two are different and wisdom is of a different order than the information one acquires in education.

:amen: Education is very much valued. But education without wisdom is sort of empty. Wisdom is to be coveted. For the Bible says.

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Proverbs 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

14 For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.

 

[tango]

I agree.

While a solid, extensive education and solid knowledge of Scripture, theology, church history, etc. insures nothing, and while some uneducated, untrained person certain can be used by God, THAT SAID, I think there is much value to good education, a good reason why for nearly 2000 years pastors have been among the best educated people in all society. I'm concerned about "the blind leading the blind." I'm concerned about the ignorant "educating" the ignorant. I'm concerned about people (innocent, trusting) looking to their pastor who (to be blunt) doesn't know what he's talking about.

I've read about some "pastor" preaching what was just pure heresy - it's just he innocently didn't know that, he had never heard of that heresy and the huge part of Christian heresy that dealt with it, he just didn't know because no one taught. After YEARS of him preaching that obvioius heresy, another pastor told him and he repented. But that was after YEARS. I wonder how often that happens.... only without some knowledgable person correcting him? And the flock (understandably) TRUSTS this man who speaks with authority, perhaps even insisting what he says is what God says.

A man I loosely know is a minister of a church. He has no formal Biblical training. I've heard a few of his sermons and for the most part they are good but when he and I had some fairly major theological disagreements he refused to discuss the disagreements in the light of Scripture. Since for some time we had a fair level of mutual respect I struggle to believe he wanted to just dismiss my understanding, and really struggle to conclude anything other than that he couldn't counter my Scriptural reasoning. I really wish he had accepted my request to turn to Scripture and reason together, not least because if I disagree with someone it's possible that they are right and I am wrong.

I think there is also GREAT value in a man being certified, tested, authorized - and in constant accountability. Not SELF approved, SELF certified, SELF evaluated, SELF authorized - or maybe by ONE person (whose own credentials aren't so good). For at least 1600 years, pastor had be schooled (extensively), their profs examined them (and not just academically!), when they had completed all their classes, boards questioned them, examined them, evaluated them - and possibly approved. Then a bishop went through the same process - and possibly approved. A bishop had to be involved in their placement. And all the while they teach and preach, several likely with MORE education, MORE experience held him accountable, examining his preaching, his teaching. I think there is value in that. All that was largely abandoned by the mega Evangelical church I was aware of in my teen years.

Again, I'm NOT saying all that INSURES anything..... but I think it has very great value. And since truth matters in Christianity, it should be a concern to all about "the blind leading the blind," the ignorant teaching the ignorant, the unaccountable teacher (lightly subject only to those who know even LESS than he does).

Checks and balances are necessary both ways. Too much focus on formal education can result in people who have a lot of head knowledge and book knowledge but no pastoring skills. Too much focus on undefined terms like "calling" and "anointing" can result in people who preach a feel-good message but don't know the Scriptures very well and can end up being pulled in all directions trying to please everybody in the church rather than focusing on what is right.

 

[tango]

Education by the spirit is disregarded as worthless not mans degrees

Even education "by the spirit" (which is a fairly vague term at best) should still be tested. It's easy for someone to say "God showed me that this passage means...." when the brutal truth is that God did nothing of the sort. Anyone bringing such a claim should expect to be tested, and as often as not the only way to test is to compare to Scripture. Sadly it's not unheard of for people to use spiritual-sounding terms like "God told me..." to shut down discussion.

On a positive note, when people do fall back on "God told me..." with nothing to support their case it can be interesting if someone else then says that God told them the exact opposite. Then it's just a question of time before at least one side starts making thinly veiled musings about which spirit the other is listening to.

 

[Lamb]

Even education "by the spirit" (which is a fairly vague term at best) should still be tested. It's easy for someone to say "God showed me that this passage means...." when the brutal truth is that God did nothing of the sort. Anyone bringing such a claim should expect to be tested, and as often as not the only way to test is to compare to Scripture. Sadly it's not unheard of for people to use spiritual-sounding terms like "God told me..." to shut down discussion.

On a positive note, when people do fall back on "God told me..." with nothing to support their case it can be interesting if someone else then says that God told them the exact opposite. Then it's just a question of time before at least one side starts making thinly veiled musings about which spirit the other is listening to.

That's when I want to blurt back, "Well, why would God lie to you when He told ME differently?" LOL

 

[tango]

That's when I want to blurt back, "Well, why would God lie to you when He told ME differently?" LOL

Sometimes I think that sort of response is needed to indicate just how absurd people can sound. Of course "God said that..." is a great line to shut down discussion, especially when backed up with "You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with God himself".

One guy I loosely knew on another board some years ago had a policy that whenever someone claimed they were one of the two witnesses he immediately claimed to be the other one. That made for some interesting discussions.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sometimes I think that sort of response is needed to indicate just how absurd people can sound. Of course "God said that..." is a great line to shut down discussion, especially when backed up with "You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with God himself".

One guy I loosely knew on another board some years ago had a policy that whenever someone claimed they were one of the two witnesses he immediately claimed to be the other one. That made for some interesting discussions.

Blaming God for a chap's really bad theology is how a chap gains followers provided the chap is sufficiently persuasive - in a confidence trickster sort of way. That is why so many groups start when their leader says "God hath said such and such and this is the message of our times, a sign of the times for our generation" and of course 'our generation' is always the last generation before the return of the Lord so the message of the leader is always urgent and pressing and every act of disobedience is a betrayal of God's special charism for the new movement. That's how it's been with sects and schisms from the beginning.