Ought human failure and deeply disturbing sins change your beliefs ...

[MoreCoffee]

When leaders and others in your faith community fail badly or sin deeply ought that to throw you into a spin or make you move on to greener fields?

 

[psalms 91]

We are not to follow people just Jesus although I know that when a leader falls usually others follow, it is a shame.

 

[Josiah]

When leaders and others in your faith community fail badly or sin deeply ought that to throw you into a spin or make you move on to greener fields?

Only if there is a long, careful attempt to deny, detract, evade.

For example, the issue that so horrified the world (including all Catholics known to me) was when all those MONSTERS - horrific, evil, monsters - among RCC ordained priest who PREYED on innocent, little Catholic boys - when it was known, bishops attempted to cover it up, deny. THAT is what caused one of the biggest crisis to Christianity in a very, very long time. Disturbing as it was, we all know that HORRIBLE, MONSTERS exist - even where we'd hope for it the least: school teachers, scout leaders, and above all Parish Pastors. But we all know, that's SADLY true. It was the cover up.... THAT is what got the RCC in so much trouble, and what DISCREDITED and HARMED so much of Christianity, what harmed ALL clergy of ALL denominations. I hope we all learned from the RCC's mistake (I'm absolutely sure the RCC has)... but again, all those court cases, all those lawsuits were directed to DIOCESES for the cover-ups. THAT should bother us!




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[MoreCoffee]

Only if there is a long, careful attempt to deny, detract, evade.

...

Your indulgence for deleting your last paragraph. I did so because it is off topic. The thread is about your faith community and what happens in it.

When leaders and others in your faith community fail badly or sin deeply ought that to throw you into a spin or make you move on to greener fields?

 

[Josiah]

Your indulgence for deleting your last paragraph. I did so because it is off topic.

IMO, it's VERY relevant to the topic. And a good example of what I think should not be be winked at and perhaps what SHOULD cause one to look for greener pastures.

When leaders and others in your faith community fail badly or sin deeply ought that to throw you into a spin or make you move on to greener fields?

I'm not aware of an example in my denomination (ain't saying none exited or exists, just I'm unaware). But if they proactively did a cover up, as in the example I gave and that all the world knows so well, THAT would perhaps suggest your "take."

 

[visionary]

It is disturbing that leaders fail in epic ways, and not only are forgiven but are able to continue on as if there words out of their mouth doesn't reflect the way their heart is going.

 

[MoreCoffee]

IMO, it's VERY relevant to the topic. ...

It would have been relevant if it were about your faith community but since it wasn't it isn't. In brief this thread is not intended to promote critiques of other people's faith communities. It is intended for comment about one's own. Your comments were not about your own faith community and hence are off topic.

 

[Josiah]

It would have been relevant if it were about your faith community but since it wasn't it isn't.

I gave an example - a case - when I think leaving one's denomination might well be in order.
I'm sorry I can't give one from my own denomination (I know of none) so I gave one that pretty much every one on the planet would be well familiar with.



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[tango]

When leaders and others in your faith community fail badly or sin deeply ought that to throw you into a spin or make you move on to greener fields?

I guess it would depend on what you mean by "my faith community". Looking at what Bill said...

We are not to follow people just Jesus although I know that when a leader falls usually others follow, it is a shame.

I think if we put too much stock in a human leader we're inevitably going to be disappointed sooner or later. If the minister of the church I was attending fell into a particularly serious sin I may consider leaving the church and going elsewhere, but I'd hope that such a situation would be met by the leader being either sidelined or removed (depending on the nature of the sin/failure) so the church could move forward. If the fellowship with the church was still there and it could move on from one person's failings I wouldn't necessarily think I had to leave.

 

[tango]

Only if there is a long, careful attempt to deny, detract, evade.

For example, the issue that so horrified the world (including all Catholics known to me) was when all those MONSTERS - horrific, evil, monsters - among RCC ordained priest who PREYED on innocent, little Catholic boys - when it was known, bishops attempted to cover it up, deny. THAT is what caused one of the biggest crisis to Christianity in a very, very long time. Disturbing as it was, we all know that HORRIBLE, MONSTERS exist - even where we'd hope for it the least: school teachers, scout leaders, and above all Parish Pastors. But we all know, that's SADLY true. It was the cover up.... THAT is what got the RCC in so much trouble, and what DISCREDITED and HARMED so much of Christianity, what harmed ALL clergy of ALL denominations. I hope we all learned from the RCC's mistake (I'm absolutely sure the RCC has)... but again, all those court cases, all those lawsuits were directed to DIOCESES for the cover-ups. THAT should bother us!

.

In fairness I'm not sure that such abuse and coverups is confined to the RCC.

It seems like a perfectly valid example of what might cause people to have their faith in their community shaken but the fact that some ministers have abused young boys isn't a reason to leave the RCC, any more than Jerry Sandusky's activities represent a reason for students at Penn State to quit their studies. The fact a priest abused young boys is a serious failure, the fact people above them sought to cover it up is another serious failure, but the merits or otherwise of a church isn't really a function of what specific individuals within the church do.

Generically speaking if the people at the higher levels look to cover something up then it can start to look as if the organisation either condones it or at the very least refuses to condemn it. On the other hand a message is either sound or unsound regardless of the proclivities of the person bringing the message.

 

[Lamb]

When leaders and others in your faith community fail badly or sin deeply ought that to throw you into a spin or make you move on to greener fields?

If they remain as leaders and remain in their sin of course I would leave. But having a leader who sins (and we all sin) who leaves his position will not make me leave my denomination since it's not the people as the reason why I'm even there in the first place.

 

[Josiah]

In fairness I'm not sure that such abuse and coverups is confined to the RCC.

Probably not (and I never indicated such). But the question was asked what concerning denominational leaders would cause ME to consider leaving. I know of none in my denomination, so I gave such an example in another that ALL would be familiar with. THAT would cause me to consider leaving..... although I didn't say I would (none of my family did over that, I think all of them considered it).

It seems like a perfectly valid example of what might cause people to have their faith in their community shaken

My point, exclusively....

but the fact that some ministers have abused young boys isn't a reason to leave the RCC,

I agree, which is why I stressed so very strongly that horrible as it is, such MONSTERS exist (everywhere). It was the cover up that was the problem, and was the example I used for what would cause me to consider leaving such a denomination, a reason I think would be valid.

On the other hand a message is either sound or unsound regardless of the proclivities of the person bringing the message.

Amen. I couldn't agree more.

The opposite is also true: Wrong teachings are wrong - regardless of how loving, caring, moral and good the false teachers (and their followers) are.




Thank you.


A blessed Lenten season to you and yours....


- Josiah

 

[TurtleHare]

When leaders and others in your faith community fail badly or sin deeply ought that to throw you into a spin or make you move on to greener fields?

Do you think the people under King David's rule considered leaving when they found out about his adultery?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you think the people under King David's rule considered leaving when they found out about his adultery?

No. Do you? How does David's sin relate to your own faith community?

 

[visionary]

When leaders and others in your faith community fail badly or sin deeply ought that to throw you into a spin or make you move on to greener fields?

They should be ones who hold high standards for themselves, so that you have someone to look up to for leadership. If they fail, then they should step down. But faith is not based on faith in man, but in God... and that should remain unmoved.