Necessity and sufficiency in relation to salvation.

[MoreCoffee]

What is sufficient for the salvation of sinners ... Grace (Ephesians 2:5,8)

What is necessary for the salvation of sinners .... Grace

The grace of God is both the reason for and the cause of salvation but not all grace is exactly the same. Thus the grace that is necessary for salvation is the costly sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and the grace that is sufficient for salvation is the sanctifying grace of God which works in the soul to draw a man (or woman) to Christ and receive the benefit of saving work of the Lord on the cross.


One ought not to worry about how much or how little one must "do" to receive salvation - rather one ought to rejoice in the grace of God and live a life worthy of it (1Thess 2:12). That is the calling of the gospel.

 

[seekingsolace]

What about the specifics - what must we believe? Is this different for a Catholic and Protestant?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What about the specifics - what must we believe? Is this different for a Catholic and Protestant?

Catholic and Protestant (Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox too and every one else who loves the Lord) ought to believe everything that the Lord teaches. It isn't a matter of what is essential and what is optional (or unnecessary). Everything that the Lord Jesus Christ teaches is important and ought to be believed. Yet it is mercy and grace that save not what or how much one manages to grasp and take to one's heart.

 

[seekingsolace]

Catholic and Protestant (Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox too and every one else who loves the Lord) ought to believe everything that the teaches. It isn't a matter of what is essential and what is optional (or unnecessary). Everything that the Lord Jesus Christ teaches is important and ought to be believed. Yet it is mercy and grace that save not what or how much one manages to grasp and take to one's heart.

I could reconcile the churches positions easier, if declarations were not made: changing the prerequisites of belief for salvation. I only wish more would take to this sentiment you have shown.

 

[visionary]

Faith walks on water. Grace forgives you for falling into the water like Peter. We are to be overcomers. Grace should not be our stopping point in our faith.

Yet it is mercy and grace that save not what or how much one manages to grasp and take to one's heart.

 

[Lamb]

What about the specifics - what must we believe? Is this different for a Catholic and Protestant?

We are saved by grace through faith. But what does faith grasp onto? This, I believe is what your question entails. WHAT do we believe God has done and what is it faith grasps onto.

Christians will agree that faith in the Savior is key. Who is this Savior and what has He done? He died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

The Nicene creed is something the majority of Christians believe in for a statement of faith. There are Christians who say they follow no creed, but if you dissect it in front of them, they agree with the points within since those points come from scripture.

 

[seekingsolace]

We are saved by grace through faith. But what does faith grasp onto? This, I believe is what your question entails. WHAT do we believe God has done and what is it faith grasps onto.

Christians will agree that faith in the Savior is key. Who is this Savior and what has He done? He died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins.

The Nicene creed is something the majority of Christians believe in for a statement of faith. There are Christians who say they follow no creed, but if you dissect it in front of them, they agree with the points within since those points come from scripture.

Thanks Lammchen for the response. I was fishing more or less. I agree with the Nicene creed as the statement of faith, I was seeing if the Catholic response was wholesale or not.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I could reconcile the churches positions easier, if declarations were not made: changing the prerequisites of belief for salvation. I only wish more would take to this sentiment you have shown.

The Church does not have the power to change what God has revealed, she never has had any such power.

 

[seekingsolace]

The Church does not have the power to change what God has revealed, she never has had any such power.

I am thinking more in-line of defining dogmatic faith - such as the assumption of Mary, as a prerequisite of salvation within the Catholic church.

It is positions such as that which keep me away.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am thinking more in-line of defining dogmatic faith - such as the assumption of Mary, as a prerequisite of salvation within the Catholic church.

It is positions such as that which keep me away.

The Church may define doctrine but only if the doctrine is revealed by God and that almost always means revealed in holy scripture.

 

[charis en excelcis]

Is it possible for there to be an Abrahamic conversion--faith in God leading to salvation without knowledge of the cross?

 

[Lamb]

Is it possible for there to be an Abrahamic conversion--faith in God leading to salvation without knowledge of the cross?

Without knowledge of the cross or knowledge of forgiveness that was won there? What would faith grasp onto without the Promise of forgiveness? We've had this promise since Genesis

 

[psalms 91]

Yes Abraham saw the promise afar off

 

[charis en excelcis]

But Abraham did not know of jesus. Even the actions that were types of Christ were hidden to him at the time. All he knew was a few stories carried down in the family and what he received directly from God. Was he saved? Yes. So, is it possible now for someone to have an Abrahamic conversion--without the missionary, etc.

 

[psalms 91]

The bibkle says he saw the promise afar off so did he know exactly, probably not but he knew

 

[Josiah]

What is sufficient for the salvation of sinners ... Grace (Ephesians 2:5,8)

What is necessary for the salvation of sinners .... Grace

The grace of God is both the reason for and the cause of salvation but not all grace is exactly the same. Thus the grace that is necessary for salvation is the costly sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross and the grace that is sufficient for salvation is the sanctifying grace of God which works in the soul to draw a man (or woman) to Christ and receive the benefit of saving work of the Lord on the cross.


One ought not to worry about how much or how little one must "do" to receive salvation - rather one ought to rejoice in the grace of God and live a life worthy of it (1Thess 2:12). That is the calling of the gospel.

In my opinion, the RCC's error is to mix, blur, entangle, confuse Justification and Sanctification (narrow sense both), Law and Gospel, God and man: the result is a confusing, synergistic, entangled mess that is in line with Judaism, Islam and some forms of Hinduism in affirming that God makes salvation POSSIBLE but we save ourselves (with divine help), a flat denial of Jesus as the SAVIOR and the demotion of him to the HELPER (or perhaps possibility-maker). The result that Catholics are told to look in the mirror for salvation, not to the Cross.


It's all a result of taking true things, right things..... but then putting them in a blender.....adding OCEANS of water to water it all down...... pushing "HIGH"....... waiting centuries....... and then pouring out the jumbled up, entangeled, confused, mixed up MESS. A synergistic, processive, self-centered, self-glorifying, never-finished, terrorizing MESS that sounds a lot more Jewish and Islamic than Christian.



Pax



- Josiah

 

[charis en excelcis]

The bibkle says he saw the promise afar off so did he know exactly, probably not but he knew

I do believe it is possible for a person to receive a revelation of God without hearing or knowing who Jesus is. I would expect in such a case that if he or she ever was exposed to the gospel, he or she would recognize quickly the God in whom they trust.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is possible that everything is necessary and nothing is sufficient. It might just be that grace and grace alone will bring the faithful home to God.