Nature of the church!

[donadams]

God always establishes peace and by obedience to hierarchical authority!

There is a hierarchical authority in all that God has ordained!

The angelic kingdom!
The civil kingdom!
The church kingdom!
The family!
The military!

All are ordered with obedience to hierarchical and jurisdictional authority!

Hierarchical nature of the new covenant church:

If you agree that Christ is the head of the church then you have consented to the fact there is a hierarchical nature of the new covenant church!

God is the head of Christ:
Christ is the head of the church:
Peter has the role of representing Christ here in earth, visible head, and the apostles / bishops their successors and those they ordain for ministry in union with Peter administer the kingdom, govern the church, teach and sanctify all men, the lay people or nations!

Spiritual anarchy produces spiritual chaos just look at the 25000 sects all full of errors and contradictions that came out of Luther’s little experiment!

 

[Josiah]

The Nature of the Church


It is undeniable that the Bible and Christians tend to use this same word variously - which can lead to a LOT of misunderstanding (and occasionally intentional abuse).


CHURCH.

"The one, holy, catholic community of saints" as most Christians proclaim each Sunday. This is PEOPLE, the PEOPLE of God. ALL those to whom God has given the divine gifts of faith, spiritual life, justification (narrow) and the Holy Spirit. It is the entire corpus of such (both on earth and now in heaven). It is "invisible" in the sense that it is not a human/geopolical/legal/economic entity but is "visible" in the sense that faith among the faithful is observable. It is ONE (because we are one body, one family, brothers and sisters in Christ), united in our faith in CHRIST as THE (one, only, exclusive) Savior. It is HOLY because all in it are forgiven via that faith in that Savior. It is CATHOLIC because it embraces ALL believers everywhere and in every time, it is a communion because we are united into one spiritual entity.

Ephesians 2:19-22
Ephesians 4:4
1 Peter 2:9
Romans 12:4
Ephesians 1:1
Luke 17:21

This is no verse that states this church is inerrant or unaccountable or void of any responsibility.


CONGREGATION/PARISH

A congregation is a gathering of Christian people in a given place and time (although by nature congregations often include seekers/unbelievers as well as believers). They gather together by their Lord's direction to worship, study, serve/minister, grow, support, love and hold each other accountable. They MAY put institutional aspects into place (name, constitution/by laws, articles of corporation, budgets, officers, property, etc.) so that that association has institutional aspects or simply may be Christians who gather in some living room. While the word "church" is often used for this too, it is NOT to be confused with THE Church - the one, holy, catholic, communion of saints: these associations are at most a tiny and current subset of THE Church. There are tens of millions of congregations in the world, very few last more than a century so they tend to have a beginning and an end. It is NOT divinely mandated that all Christians associate into some congregation/parish, but many do and many believe this is a good thing but there are hundreds of millions of "non-congregational" Christians.

Galatians 1:2
1 Thessalonians 1:1
Revelation 1:4
1 Corinthians 1:2

There is no verse that states that congregations are inerrant, unaccountable and void of responsibility.



DENOMINATION

This usage is not found in the Bible. Not that anything in Scripture forbids such, it's just that such did not exist in the First Century.

At times, a group of congregations MAY choose to associate together - forming an institution of them, an association of congregations.

This USUALLY is a formal institution - but it can at times simply refer to a common creed among congregations (as in "the Lutheran denomination" - there actually are over 300 Lutheran denomination institutions, but theoretically, most share a common creed, the Lutheran Confessions). These congregations associate together into denominations for similar reasons that Christians associate into congregations: for the purposes of mutual edification, ministry, support and accountability. Some of these are extremely "loose" (the "United Church of Christ" in the USA would be an example), the most radical forms are very strong they even may actually legally own and operate the member congregations (the Catholic Church or the Episcopal Church USA are examples of very radical, extreme denominations). Examples would be "The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod" "The Greek Orthodox Church" "The United Reformed Church in America". There are thousands of denominations in the world currently, the largest (by far) being the Catholic Church although it is highly diversified into dioceses.

Congregations can be denominational (as most are) or non-denominational. Denominational ones are associated with other congregations - with a common formal statement of faith and often with some governance above and outside itself, whereas non-denominational ones are independent and autonomous. There is no divine mandate that a congregation be denominational (and millions aren't) but most are and most believe this is a benefit.

There are no Scriptures that mention denominations. Many hold that none clearly existed until the Roman Empire formed "The Roman Church" in the early 4th Century, created by itself for itself in the image of itself.

The term "Faith Community" is sometimes used for a group of congregations (or even individual Christians) who share a common statement of faith (although not an institution) - thus "the Lutheran Faith Community" for any and all denominations, parishes or individuals who embrace the Lutheran Confessions, or "The Anglican Communion" for examples. Occasionally, "denomination" is used in this sense, too.


Again, I don't deny that these words CAN be used in very sloppy and confusing ways, but it is clear there are these 3 very different aspects being addressed - even if some title is used.



Other common but often modern and English examples.....

BUILDING:

This usage is not found in the Bible but is common in modern usage.

"Bob is painting the church."

WORSHIP:

Another usage not found in the Bible but common in modern usage.

"She sang a solo during church last Sunday."




A blessed Christmas to all.



- Josiah

 

[Albion]

God always establishes peace and by obedience to hierarchical authority!

There is a hierarchical authority in all that God has ordained!

The angelic kingdom!
The civil kingdom!
The church kingdom!
The family!
The military!

All are ordered with obedience to hierarchical and jurisdictional authority!

Hierarchical nature of the new covenant church:

If you agree that Christ is the head of the church then you have consented to the fact there is a hierarchical nature of the new covenant church!

God is the head of Christ:
Christ is the head of the church:

Just about every Christian denomination and congregation recognizes that principle.

Peter has the role of representing Christ here in earth, visible head, and the apostles / bishops their successors and those they ordain for ministry in union with Peter administer the kingdom, govern the church, teach and sanctify all men, the lay people or nations!

There is of course a range of opinion about this application of the principle.

Spiritual anarchy produces spiritual chaos just look at the 25000 sects all full of errors and contradictions

Many of the cults are very authoritarian, however. They share that kind of organizational model with your own denomination, although they take it even further, and are unlike most Protestant churches in that respect, even the ones that do have some sort of hierarchical structure.

that came out of Luther’s little experiment!

Ultimately, they came from the Roman Catholic Church by way of the Lutheran church. But really, there have not been very many new denominations that originated with a schism from Lutheranism. Not nearly as many as some other Protestant churches have experienced.

And then too, the RCC is the Christian denomination that has experienced the largest and most significant splits in the whole of Christian history, not one of the reformed churches.

 

[Josiah]

Is the Roman Catholic Church a Denomination?


Some definitions:

From religioustolerance.com
Denomination: an established religious group, typically uniting a group of individual, local congregations into a single administrative body.


From thefreedictionary.com
Denomination: "A group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."


From onlinedictionary.com
Denomination: "a group of religious congregations having its own organization and often a distinctive faith."


From Allwords.com
Denomination: "a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith."


American Heritage Dictionary:
Denomination: "A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy."

Sometimes Catholics like to use the ECONOMIC definition of the word, but that's irrelevant since the RCC is not currency.


Is the RCC a denomination? It is unless one insists that it has no Catechism or beliefs, that is has no bishops or archbishops or cardinals or pope, that each priest is entirely autonomous, that each parish is absolutely independent and has nothing to do with ANY other parish.

Nothin' wrong with being a denomination! And being a denomination doesn't suggest anything bad or wrong. But it is what it is.

Historians suggest there were no denominations (including The Roman Catholic Church) until the Fourth Century when the Roman Empire created one for itself. That Roman Church is historically the direct proto-denomination to all the various Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox and Catholic denominations and the indirect proto-denomination to all denominations today.



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

Is the Church or Any Parish or Denomination Inerrant and Void of Accountability?
Did Jesus promise this?


Consider Adam and Eve. Did God DIRECTLY establish them? As holy and sinless? Yes. Thus, were they kept from all possibility of error, were they incapable of error? Were they unaccountable and not responsible? No.

Consider the "people of God" (Israel) in the Old Testament. Did God found them as his chosen people? Was the "church" all established directly by God (right down to what the priests must wear)? Yes. Did it still err and need Reform? Many times. Ever heard of the Judges? the Prophets? I'm named for one of the Reformers of that "church" God directly established among the Hebrews.....

Consider the many times every church (including yours) needed reform. All the Councils to correct errors in the church. All the rulings. All the things Popes and Bishops must do to correct errors. It happens in all churches.

Yes, we all know the CLAIM that the Catholic Church itself makes for it itself alone (the same one the LDS itself makes for it itself alone; pretty much all cults - not remotely suggesting the Catholic Church is a cult only that the claim it makes for it itself is far from unique). None have ever agreed with this claim of the Catholic Church by itself for itself. Know what happened in 1054? But many see this as just an avoidance of accountability and responsibility: "I can't err so I can't err when I claim I can't err so I can't err." "Me and God are in the same totally unique camp, we are infallible." Some just don't agree. Now, IF God in Scripture had stated, "The unique Roman Catholic Church as an institution can do and teach no wrong" we might have a conversation, but.... well.... you know.

SO, since it seems where humans are involved, error also can be involved (even where GOD directly established such); one simply claiming "But I say that I'm uniquely incapable of being wrong, says I" is no proof that such is the case, in fact I think most of us would agree that's a pretty good sign that he's NOT what he claims.

The reality is Scripture never mentions The Roman Catholic Church. Never promised it itself anything.






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[Josiah]

The Claims of the Catholic Church for Its Own Pope.

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The following comes from a Greek Orthodox friend of mine.... Please view the video above first


Thoughts about Matthew 16:18


The Roman Church directs us to Matthew 16:18 as "evidence" for the foundational claim. Let's consider what needs to be proven for this to have any credibility...


1) The promise of Matt 16:18 has reference specifically to "Peter."


Response: Matthew 16:18 may not even refer to Peter. "We can see that 'Petros' is not the "petra' on which Jesus will build his church. In 7:24, which Matthew quotes here, the 'petra' consists of Jesus' teaching and the faith that Jesus is the Savior and Lord. 'This rock' no longer poses the problem that 'this' is ill suits an address to Peter in which he is the rock. For that meaning the text would have read more naturally 'on you.' Instead, the demonstrative echoes 7:24; i.e., 'this rock' echoes 'these my words.' Only Matthew put the demonstrative with Jesus words, which the rock stood for in the following parable (7:24-27). His reusing it in 16:18 points away from Peter to those same words as the foundation of the church…Matthew's Jesus will build only on the firm bedrock of his law (5:19-20; 28:19).


2) The promise of Matt 16:18 has "exclusive" reference to Peter.


Response: There a the power-sharing arrangement in Matthew 18:17-18 and John 20:23. The Roman Church itself is confused on this, insisting Jesus gave all this to PETER and then that He didn't.



3) The promise of Mt 16:18 has reference to a Petrine "office."

Response: The conception of a Petrine office is borrowed from Roman bureaucratic categories (officium) and read back into this verse. The original promise is indexed to the person of Peter, says the Roman Church. There is no textual assertion or implication whatsoever to the effect.




4) This office is "perpetual"


Response: In 16:18, perpetuity is attributed to the church, and not to a church office or a given Apostle.



5) Peter resided in "Rome"
.
Response: there is some evidence that Peter paid a visit to Rome (1 Peter 5:13). There is some evidence that Peter also paid a visit to Corinth (1 Cor 1:12; 9:5). Peter was in MANY locations (most we can better confirm than Rome). Why just the bishop of Rome?



6) Peter was the "bishop" of Rome

Response: Even if Peter ever was in Rome, an Apostle is not a bishop. Apostleship is a vocation, not an office, analogous to the prophetic calling. Or, if you prefer, it’s an extraordinary rather than ordinary office. Peter was equally and fully an Apostle everywhere - not especially or solely in Rome. Peter was a bishop nowhere, not ever.



7) Peter was the "first" bishop of Rome

Response: The original Church of Rome was probably organized by Messianic Jews like Priscilla and Aquilla (Acts 18:2; Romans 16:3). It wasn’t founded by Peter. When Paul is in Rome, he makes no mention of Peter at all - as an Apostle there, as a bishop there, as a pastor there, as the Pope, or as "there" at all. In any capacity. Nor does he indicate that Peter founded the congregation there or that the ministers in that city had any special role or function or rank.



8) There was only "one" bishop at a time

Response: There is no historic confirmation of this in the Early Church.



9) Peter was not a bishop "anywhere else."


Response: Peter presided over the Diocese of Pontus-Bithynia (1 Peter 1:1), but there's no evidence he was a BISHOP there, either. Peter was an Apostle - and this was universal, not limited to one small geographical area.



10) Peter "ordained" a successor


Response: There is no textual support for the proposition that Peter ordained any successors. Apostles, bishops, priests or otherwise. There's no contemporary historical support for this, either. This is entirely made up.



11) This ceremony "transferred" his official prerogatives to a successor.


Response: The Roman popes are elected to papal office, they are not ordained to papal office. There is no separate or special sacrament of papal orders as over against priestly orders. If Peter ordained a candidate, that would just make him a pastor, not an Apostle or Pope.



12) The succession has remained "unbroken" up to the present day.


Response: There is no straight-line deduction from Matt 16:18 to the papacy of the Roman Church. What we have is, at best, a long chain of possible inferences, much "connecting the dots of assumptions." It only takes one broken link anywhere up or down the line to destroy the argument and the whole "house of cards" to come tumbling down. Also, the "list" of the bishops in Rome is retroactively created and simply is a list of bishops, except for the first name on the list (see all the points above). And of course, there often was more than one "Pope" at a time, each claiming to be the one in direct succession to Peter and with their own retroactively created "list."







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[donadams]

Is the Church or Any Parish or Denomination Inerrant and Void of Accountability?
Did Jesus promise this?


Consider Adam and Eve. Did God DIRECTLY establish them? As holy and sinless? Yes. Thus, were they kept from all possibility of error, were they incapable of error? Were they unaccountable and not responsible? No.

Consider the "people of God" (Israel) in the Old Testament. Did God found them as his chosen people? Was the "church" all established directly by God (right down to what the priests must wear)? Yes. Did it still err and need Reform? Many times. Ever heard of the Judges? the Prophets? I'm named for one of the Reformers of that "church" God directly established among the Hebrews.....

Consider the many times every church (including yours) needed reform. All the Councils to correct errors in the church. All the rulings. All the things Popes and Bishops must do to correct errors. It happens in all churches.

Yes, we all know the CLAIM that the Catholic Church itself makes for it itself alone (the same one the LDS itself makes for it itself alone; pretty much all cults - not remotely suggesting the Catholic Church is a cult only that the claim it makes for it itself is far from unique). None have ever agreed with this claim of the Catholic Church by itself for itself. Know what happened in 1054? But many see this as just an avoidance of accountability and responsibility: "I can't err so I can't err when I claim I can't err so I can't err." "Me and God are in the same totally unique camp, we are infallible." Some just don't agree. Now, IF God in Scripture had stated, "The unique Roman Catholic Church as an institution can do and teach no wrong" we might have a conversation, but.... well.... you know.

SO, since it seems where humans are involved, error also can be involved (even where GOD directly established such); one simply claiming "But I say that I'm uniquely incapable of being wrong, says I" is no proof that such is the case, in fact I think most of us would agree that's a pretty good sign that he's NOT what he claims.

The reality is Scripture never mentions The Roman Catholic Church. Never promised it itself anything.


Major covenants!

God initiated each covenant and the mediator always remains on earth mediating the covenant except for Christ who made Peter His personal representative and vicar! (Matt 16:18-19) with the keys of jurisdictional authority over the kingdom or new covenant church!

Adam
(Marriage covenant)

Noah
(Family covenant)

Abraham
(Tribal covenant)

Moses:
(National covenant)

Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)

New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18

Universal (Catholic)
World universal

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal) All men!

Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people. All men!

Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world. All men!

Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. All men!

Lk 2: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. All men!

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (All people universal) All men!

1 Tim 2:5 one mediator

Jn 10:16 One new covenant church

Only Jesus Christ has authority to found the church on Peter and the apostles! Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18
Jn 20:21 eph 2:20

All others are heretical sects the tradition of men!

Christ is king and established a kingdom!

Obedience to the apostles who have the jurisdictional authority to govern the church and administer the kingdom is obedience to Christ!

Kingdom

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

the holy Catholic Church

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus Christ is king!

We must submit and obey the king of kings!

And His authorized ministers that He Himself appointed!

Matt 16:18-19 & 28:28 eph 2:20 Jn 20:21-23

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)



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