USA Let's start a petition to make the USA a democracy!

MoreCoffee

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Come on USA people. Get off your posteriors and fight for democracy! Why do you tolerate this dreadfully anti-democratic system of electing a president?

Start a petition, send it to congress. Demand amendments to the USA constitution to make your country a democracy!

 
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Lamb

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I definitely think it's time to end the electoral college. We have advanced technology now to assist citizens in voting if only it would be implemented. We don't need electorals to promise to vote as we wish and then turn on us in the end. Great video explanation!
 

Josiah

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AGAIN....


The Electorial College goes back to the founding of the USA 240 years ago..... it is prescribed in our Constitution. At our founding, only congressmen were elected directly by the people. The thought there was that in those days, congressmen represented only about 30,000 people and it was a very temporary job requireing only a few days a year.... it was thought the people had an opportunity to know the candidates and hear from them in that age long before mass media (even then, the press was considered biased.... best if people met the candidates face-to-face). Until quite recently, Senators were elected by the States (not directly by the people) but NOW they are directly elected - but we still have the electorial college for president. A constitutional amendment could change that but such as never been seriously promoted.

The Electorial College most certainly DOES impact things.... a few times, the candidate who won did not win the popular vote (we had a case recently of this) - but it's been very close even when that did happen. And Nixon BARELY lost the popular vote in but lost the electorial college by a significant margin. What it does is place smaller states into play..... indeed, states like Ohio and Florida are very important: elections are often won or loss in a half dozen key states (none of them among our most populous). Big states, like California, are BLESSEDLY void of most campaigning because while California has more electorial votes than any other state, it's a solid Dem state now and so Republicans "write it off" and Democrats have no reason to campagin here - they will win no matter what (typically..... lately). Candiates HAVE to pay attention to smaller states (where the election is largely won or lost) and to every region of the country with all the diversity of culture and issues.

Those who support it note that if all we had is a popular election, a handful of BIG states (on both coasts + Texas) would determine the election, huge states where campaigns would just be TV ads in huge mass-media markets. Most states and regions would be ignored since they simply don't have enough votes to matter much, candidates would be those that appeal to urban (and typically more liberal) coastal areas. THIS is probably the major reason why a Constitutional Amendment would have a tough time passing: it requires 2/3's of the states to approve it, and probably 2/3's of the states would become largely irrelevant if they did. That's the argument that has been used for decades. Frankly, if you look back over the elections of the past century, only once did it ULTIMATELY change things (we would have had Al Gore as President, not George Bush). The campaign would be different (much more expensive, much more a matter of mass media ads, maybe more liberal candidates) but I don't think the outcome would be different in terms of Dem or Rep.

One more point: Foreigners often don't realize that the founding, the tradition, the philosophy, the Constitution of the USA is basically a confederation of states - not the radical federal nationalism that exists in most other nations. TRUE, the political history of the USA has been an ever-growing national government (to which many - it seems including Bill above - are not too happy about): When FDR became president, there were individual states with budgets larger than the federal government - now the budget of the federal government is bigger than those of all 50 states combined. The "shift" has been dramatic..... we are becoming, in practice, more like other nations in this regard. BUT it needs to be deeply appreciated by non-Americans that states here are NOT at all just districts of the federal government.... that's not our culture or tradition or legal heritage AND it's not our Constitution. The Electorial College seems odd even to a lot of very modern Americans but it flows from our understanding of what our nation is: Fifty STATES. And the majority of those states don't want to be essentially cut out of the process.

BTW, on a very related note, the upper house - the Senate - which arguably is more powerful than the lower house - also reveals this culture. Every STATE has two senators - regardless of the population of that state. Wyoming gets two, California gets two. Same political philosophy as we see in the Elecctorial College. And both have never seriously been challenged.

This probably isn't how Denmark would think to do things, but then the USA is not Denmark.


I hope that helps.



- Josiah



Ronald Reagan in 2016!




.
 

Josiah

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Another point....


NO COUNTRY KNOWN TO ME is a direct democracy. I don't even know of a city that is a direct democracy.

What we have is REPRESENTATIVE democracies..... we choose people to vote FOR US, in our place, as our fully-authorized representatives; we don't vote directly but we authorize OTHERS, our REPRSENTATIVES, to do so. Likely, you don't vote on a single bill that comes before the legislature in Australia - you aren't even permitted to be on the floor during the vote or to speak on the floor to the bill (although you can SILENTLY listen from the gallery or on TV), because it's the REPRESENTATIVES that actually vote. It's not a direct democracy, it's a REPRESENTATIVE democracy. In the case of the electorial college, we are TECHNICALLY voting for a slate of REPRESENTATIVES who are (more or less) pledged to vote for a certain candidate... philosophically this isn't so different than voting for a Congressmen who has pledged (more or less, lol) to vote in certain ways for us (there's a reason they are called REPRESENTATIVES).

In California, we have a rare case of direct democracy but it's very limited. We residents can get a DIRECT proposition on the ballot - bypassing the entire government of the State. We have a few of these propositions (1 to 10 or so) on each ballot - some significant, some silly, some quite irrelevant, some very special interest. This is how California got legalized pot and a few other things that never would have gotten through the government. But only a few US States have this and the federal government does not. And it's VERY limited.


Coffee, my Australian friend, I think you are REALLY abusing things in suggesting the USA not a democracy...... true, we are not a DIRECT democracy, but then nor is your county (or any other), we are REPRESENTATIVE democracies.




I hope that helps (although probably not)



- Josiah





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MoreCoffee

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tango

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An interesting article I read a while back on how the electoral college system could potentially result in a third party candidate taking the presidency in an election with two candidates who appear to be widely loathed.

I forget the full details but the gist of it was like this:

Gary Johnson wins the 5 votes from New Mexico. This results in neither Trump nor Hillary receiving an overall majority, therefore neither of them is automatically declared president. Now the electoral college has to consider what to do next. Places that are staunchly Republican won't cast their votes for Hillary; places that are staunchly Democrat won't cast their votes for Trump. They have to vote for someone, so the most promising third party candidate becomes more attractive.

I don't know enough about the inner workings of US elections to be able to say whether it's a viable outcome or not, but if there is a way that a third party candidate could generate enough cross-party appeal to ease out two candidates who are despised by the opposing party and disliked by many within their own party that would seem like a step forward.

For what it's worth the UK is arguably not a true democracy either.
 

MoreCoffee

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An interesting article I read a while back on how the electoral college system could potentially result in a third party candidate taking the presidency in an election with two candidates who appear to be widely loathed.

I forget the full details but the gist of it was like this:

Gary Johnson wins the 5 votes from New Mexico. This results in neither Trump nor Hillary receiving an overall majority, therefore neither of them is automatically declared president. Now the electoral college has to consider what to do next. Places that are staunchly Republican won't cast their votes for Hillary; places that are staunchly Democrat won't cast their votes for Trump. They have to vote for someone, so the most promising third party candidate becomes more attractive.

I don't know enough about the inner workings of US elections to be able to say whether it's a viable outcome or not, but if there is a way that a third party candidate could generate enough cross-party appeal to ease out two candidates who are despised by the opposing party and disliked by many within their own party that would seem like a step forward.

For what it's worth the UK is arguably not a true democracy either.

Yes, the UK's voting system has already yielded very undemocratic results.

 

Josiah

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double post, sorry.
 
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tango

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Of course a large part of the problem with any system is that the people who stay home represent a large enough percentage of the population to swing the result wildly in either direction if they could only be motivated to get out and actually vote.

Personally I'd rather see some form of qualification applied to votes before we fuss with how they are counted. When people do things like vote for Obama because "it's about time we had a black President" or don't vote for Obama because they "don't want no (expletive) (racial slur) in the White House" it would be good to prune their votes out completely. It's one thing to have a nice easy "one person, one vote" system but when you get voters who decide they don't like a candidate because they are bald or have grey hair or are too short or have a certain pigmentation or gender or sexual orientation or religion it makes the system pointless.

The thing I'm often curious about is why it's so important to Americans to have a President who claims to be Christian. It seems that the concept that Obama might be a Muslim is anathema to some, but whether he worships Yahweh or Allah or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or nothing really doesn't seem like it should be of concern. I'd rather see people looking at a candidate's policies rather than expecting them to pretend to be Christian to get elected, only to then criticise them for not being a proper Christian.
 

Josiah

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Never before in US history have the two party's candidates been more disliked - and yet even in this radical and unheard of election, there is no way that the Green or Constitution or American Independent party's candidates are going to get more votes than Trump or Clinton.

WITH the electorial college, it's theoretically possible (even this year).... HARD but possible: Johnson seems to be gathering more support than the others, but all he'd need to do is keep either from getting the 270 mandated for an election. That's doable. Say Johnson comes in a very distant third. The House of Representatives then has the vote but can only choose from among the top 3 in the electorial college vote - in this case: Trump, Clinton or Johnson. It IS possible they'd go with Johnson but I doubt it..... I suspect they'd mostly go down party lines which likely would give it to Trump but again, it's possible Johnson could get it. But his election would depend on the Electorial College... without it, he wouldn't have a chance.

Of course, third party candidates have often changed the election (Ross Parrot being the last case of this) by pulling enough votes from one candidate to cause them to loose, but that's different than the third party candidate winning.




.
 
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tango

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... and for good measure the original premise does rather assume that Americans are unhappy with the electoral college system. In some ways it works well, in other ways it doesn't work so well. It creates situations like when Bush won the 2000 election despite losing the popular vote but at the same time means that less populous states probably get more representation than they might otherwise do.

Personally I think the federal government should be sufficiently small that it makes little difference whether it's notionally one party or another. Otherwise democracy can easily turn into little more than two wolves and a sheep voting on who's for dinner.
 

psalms 91

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Yes, it would be great if government would butt out but it has grown to big and intrusive to ever have that happen without a revolution
 

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We will need to go back to paper vote count, as the electronic voting booth has been defaulted to Obama last time. Who is to say that it wouldn't happen again for Hillary.
 

MoreCoffee

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Of course a large part of the problem with any system is that the people who stay home represent a large enough percentage of the population to swing the result wildly in either direction if they could only be motivated to get out and actually vote.

Personally I'd rather see some form of qualification applied to votes before we fuss with how they are counted. When people do things like vote for Obama because "it's about time we had a black President" or don't vote for Obama because they "don't want no (expletive) (racial slur) in the White House" it would be good to prune their votes out completely. It's one thing to have a nice easy "one person, one vote" system but when you get voters who decide they don't like a candidate because they are bald or have grey hair or are too short or have a certain pigmentation or gender or sexual orientation or religion it makes the system pointless.

The thing I'm often curious about is why it's so important to Americans to have a President who claims to be Christian. It seems that the concept that Obama might be a Muslim is anathema to some, but whether he worships Yahweh or Allah or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or nothing really doesn't seem like it should be of concern. I'd rather see people looking at a candidate's policies rather than expecting them to pretend to be Christian to get elected, only to then criticise them for not being a proper Christian.

Make voting a part of the responsibilities of citizenship. Citizens have to do jury duty why not voting duty too?
 

Josiah

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... and for good measure the original premise does rather assume that Americans are unhappy with the electoral college system. In some ways it works well, in other ways it doesn't work so well. It creates situations like when Bush won the 2000 election despite losing the popular vote but at the same time means that less populous states probably get more representation than they might otherwise do.


I agree.

I don't see anything philosophically "wrong" with the Electorial College (I think a BETTER "anti" case could be made of the Senate) since we are a REPRESENTATIVE democracy, not a direct democracy. It actually "fits" well with the US tradition of confederation, and it tends to make our national candidates more national than regional (and probably more moderate).

As for 2000 (the only recent election where this issue made any difference), the popular vote was SO incredibly close to be well within the probable margin of error (remember the "dangling chads"?)... and while I was pretty young at the time, I don't recall any great uproar among Americans at the time, we seemed to accept the outcome pretty well.... there was no movement to change the system afterwards. It was just an incredibly close election.

I don't believe there is anything philosophically wrong with representative democracy - whether in the USA or any other nation or locale.




- Josiah
 

tango

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Yes, the UK's voting system has already yielded very undemocratic results.



The UK has also been dealing with issues like the West Lothian question.

Part of the issue with any attempts to change the voting system is that it's inevitable that politicians will look to change the system in a way that benefits them. The people may see issues but at the same time people typically want things changed in a way that also keeps the parties they dislike out of power.

In the UK the system does have issues - in the 2010 election the Liberal Democrats should arguably have had far more seats in the Commons than they did, the flip side of that is that in 2015 UKIP should have been better represented. The two parties are sufficiently different that many people who wanted the system changed to properly recognise the Lib-Dems in 2010 would be horrified at the thought that their change would have helped UKIP in 2015.

I know chatter on faceache isn't necessarily representative of what people actually think but I've known a fair few people in the UK who simply write off parties like UKIP as "racist parties" as if such a comment were the beginning and ending of meaningful discussion on the matter. Then there's the talk of trying to ban the British National Party, apparently oblivious to the irony inherent within such a stance. What does seem depressingly predictable is that, when people start voting for parties that at least appear to be extremists (if they aren't overtly extreme) the chatter turns to how to stop the parties gaining power rather than understanding why people are voting for them in the first place.

The sad truth appears to be that the political establishment is sufficiently detached from the people that they are judged to not care, the people are increasingly divided where politics are concerned (I'm switching examples a little here but just look at the levels of vitriol posted by the left about Trump and by the right about Hillary) and it doesn't take very many cycles of people reluctantly voting for the lesser evil before they will start to rally behind a candidate who promises to just shake things up, or a third party candidate with nothing to offer beyond Not Being Establishment, or something drastic like Brexit, or whatever else.

When people do reach the point where they are sufficiently fed up of The Establishment that they will vote for Someone Else with relatively little consideration for what a post-establishment nation might look like, the powers that be should be concerned. As things stand it seems they just stir up more division and spread more fear that a vote for Anyone Except Me is effectively a vote for The Other Guy. If they really cared about representation we'd have things like a transferable vote so people could vote for the candidate they believed was best but be able to transfer their vote if their preferred candidate didn't make the cut.

It's not that hard to see a moderate Republican voting Libertarian then Republican, or a moderate Democrat voting Green then Democrat (or Libertarian then Democrat) or similar. If the third party candidate gains cross-party support maybe they could shake things up vigorously, alternatively the kind of people who would vote Extreme-Nutjob then Mainstream-Party would see their hard-right or hard-left candidate knocked out and their vote transferred to R/D depending. In theory it would let people vote, say, Tea Party then Democrat (so that if the Tea Party candidate didn't make the cut their vote would transfer to the Democrat candidate) and, while it's hard to see it happening very often, there's no reason to specifically prevent people from doing it. The only issue would be to make sure they did it intentionally.
 

MoreCoffee

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In Oz we have single member electorates - like the UK does - but we do not use "first past the post" voting. We have preferential voting which means that if your electorate has 7 candidates from several parties and some independents then the voter numbers their ballot from 1 to 7.

Thus if we have these cndidates
  1. Liberal - John O'Sullivan
  2. National - Matthew Smith
  3. Labor - Amanda Kolashnikov
  4. Green - Fiona Treehugger
  5. Independent 1 - Sandra Voteforme
  6. Independent 2 - Miroslav Jenkins
  7. Independent 3 - Mark Hollander
The voter might decide to vote thus
  1. Liberal - John O'Sullivan [3]
  2. National - Matthew Smith [7]
  3. Labor - Amanda Kolashnikov [1]
  4. Green - Fiona Treehugger [2]
  5. Independent 1 - Sandra Voteforme [4]
  6. Independent 2 - Miroslav Jenkins [5]
  7. Independent 3 - Mark Hollander [6]
In this system the candidate who gets 51% or more of the vote wins.

The % of the vote a candidate gets is calculated by how many [1]s they get - the candidate with the fewest [1]s is eliminated and the votes with [1] for that candidate are then counted for [2]s and after that the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated and the process continues until there are either 2 candidates left or somebody gets to 51% or more. ... it is not an ideal system but it does mean that no candidate who did not get a majority of votes can be elected.

See here for an official explanation of exactly how the votes are counted.
 

tango

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In Oz we have single member electorates - like the UK does - but we do not use "first past the post" voting. We have preferential voting which means that if your electorate has 7 candidates from several parties and some independents then the voter numbers their ballot from 1 to 7.

Thus if we have these cndidates
  1. Liberal - John O'Sullivan
  2. National - Matthew Smith
  3. Labor - Amanda Kolashnikov
  4. Green - Fiona Treehugger
  5. Independent 1 - Sandra Voteforme
  6. Independent 2 - Miroslav Jenkins
  7. Independent 3 - Mark Hollander
The voter might decide to vote thus
  1. Liberal - John O'Sullivan [3]
  2. National - Matthew Smith [7]
  3. Labor - Amanda Kolashnikov [1]
  4. Green - Fiona Treehugger [2]
  5. Independent 1 - Sandra Voteforme [4]
  6. Independent 2 - Miroslav Jenkins [5]
  7. Independent 3 - Mark Hollander [6]
In this system the candidate who gets 51% or more of the vote wins.

The % of the vote a candidate gets is calculated by how many [1]s they get - the candidate with the fewest [1]s is eliminated and the votes with [1] for that candidate are then counted for [2]s and after that the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated and the process continues until there are either 2 candidates left or somebody gets to 51% or more. ... it is not an ideal system but it does mean that no candidate who did not get a majority of votes can be elected.

See here for an official explanation of exactly how the votes are counted.


That's the sort of thing I'm talking about with the transferable vote, although you don't have to assign a vote to everybody. It would be perfectly acceptable to vote 1 for Fiona Treehugger and 2 for Sandra Voteforme and stop there. At that point once your two selected candidates were knocked out of the running your vote would be discounted.
 
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