LCMS Marionology

[Faith]

As most of you already know, Catholics believe that Mary was Assumed into heaven. I asked my LCMS pastor what we believe and he simply said that she died. I assume that means we don’t believe she was Assumed into Heaven, correct?

If she wasn’t Assumed, what does the LCMS believe happened to her bones and tomb?

 

[Castle Church]

I believe that it would be better said that the idea that she was bodily assumed is adiaphora. The Bible neither speaks in confirmation or denies it. That said, I personally do not ascribe to the belief and it would seem that most Lutherans also believe that she died and was not bodily assumed.

That said, the Lutheran Confessions are clear that she is Theotokos.

 

[Faith]

I believe that it would be better said that the idea that she was bodily assumed is adiaphora. The Bible neither speaks in confirmation or denies it. That said, I personally do not ascribe to the belief and it would seem that most Lutherans also believe that she died and was not bodily assumed.

That said, the Lutheran Confessions are clear that she is Theotokos.

What’s Theotokos?

 

[Castle Church]

What’s Theotokos?

"God Bearer" that she is the Mother of God and not simply the mother of Christ.

 

[Faith]

"God Bearer" that she is the Mother of God and not simply the mother of Christ.

Ok. I thought it was that she was a Immaculately Conceived

 

[Albion]

As most of you already know, Catholics believe that Mary was Assumed into heaven. I asked my LCMS pastor what we believe and he simply said that she died. I assume that means we don’t believe she was Assumed into Heaven, correct?

If she wasn’t Assumed, what does the LCMS believe happened to her bones and tomb?

One of the many sites that various people claimed as the burial site of Mary was opened towards the end of the first century and found to hold no body. Local residents began to claim that God must have taken her to heaven bodily.

The Roman Catholic Church pronounced (much later) that this was true, and about 70 years ago made the idea into a must-believe, infallible, dogma of the Church.

Even so, the Roman Catholic Church has never said whether she was taken after death or before death. Just that her body was taken.

Your Lutheran pastor is correctly describing the response of his church and that of all most every other church, too. She died. You could believe as a personal opinion that, yes, the body was also taken, although there really is no evidence of that and the notion isn't an Apostolic belief from the beginning of the church. Or not believe it.

 

[Albion]

Ok. I thought it was that she was a Immaculately Conceived

That's another must-believe doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church that is rejected by all Protestant churches. Unlike the doctrine of the Assumption, however, it has at least a glimmer of a Scriptural basis, although all non-Catholics think it's an erroneous interpretation of Scripture.

I'm referring to what the angel said to Mary when announcing that she was to conceive and be the mother of the Savior--that she was "full of grace."

If we look at that statement strictly literally, as though Mary was a container of some liquid, then if she was full of X, there would be no room for any Y. In this case, the RCC says that this means she had no sin at all, only grace, which in turn rules out even Original Sin.

Ironically, almost every Bible translation translates the wording as "(you) have found favor with God," but it's the King James Version, the Anglican Church's translation, that uses the more poetic language, "full of grace" to mean "having found favor with God."

 

[Josiah]

As most of you already know, Catholics believe that Mary was Assumed into heaven. I asked my LCMS pastor what we believe and he simply said that she died. I assume that means we don’t believe she was Assumed into Heaven, correct?

If she wasn’t Assumed, what does the LCMS believe happened to her bones and tomb?

@Faith


The Lutheran Confessions say nothing about the Assumption of Mary. Thus, it is not doctrine in the LCMS.

That does not mean ergo it is declared heresy but it does mean it is not taught as doctrine. While many Lutherans expressed a "pious opinion" regarding the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, that too is not doctrine in Lutheranism but UNLIKE the Assumption of Mary, the PVM was commonly held as pious opinion although not so much currently.

The Catholic Church does not officially teach that Mary died OR that she did not, there is no doctrine on that point. Both views are held by Catholics.

what does the LCMS believe happened to her bones and tomb?

The LCMS doesn't believe anything about that.

No one knows what happened to the bones of Mary. The same is true of my great uncle (he was an officer on a submarine during WWII... the sub and the bodies aboard it have never been found). But just because the bones have not been found is not dogmatic confirmation of an essential fact that ergo my great uncle was assumed into heaven; his bones not being found means this: his bones have not been found. That's it, that's all, ain't rocket science.

What’s Theotokos?

Totally unrelated to the Assumption of Mary.....

Matre Dei (Latin for Mother of God, a title mostly used in the West) or Theotokos (Greek for God bearer, a title used mostly in the East) are both TITLES for Mary and not doctrines. Not teachings, not doctrine, not dogma. Nowhere. Ever. They are simply (and only) titles that affirm that since Jesus is God and since Mary is the mother of Jesus ergo Mary is the mother of God or bearer of God. These are TITLES for Mary since the Early Church. Lutherans at times use the term "Matre Dei" as well (it's found in our Confessions) but again, only as a title.

she was a Immaculately Conceived

Again, nowhere mentioned in the Lutheran Confessions. Not as doctrine, not as heresy. The Confessions are silent on this. But I know of no Lutherans (past or present) that personally affirm it. I doubt you personally would be shot or even excommunicated if you held this as pious opinion but who knows.




Faith,

When you are Confirmed and/or officially join an LCMS parish, you will be asked if you accept the teachings found here (not including the Table of Duties). Click on the link here: The Small Catechism I encourage you yet again to READ this. Then post if you have questions about anything here that you will be asked if you agree with (rather than issues you won't be asked to agree with).





.

 

[Albion]

What’s Theotokos?

The word means "birthgiver of God." The controversy comes in when we look at it and decide what it's supposed to mean.

It's a very old term of respect meaning that Mary gave physical birth to the being who already was God--Jesus Christ. BUT it has been criticized by some people, mainly evangelicals, because it looks to them like it's saying that Mary created God (which would of course be impossible).

The term is most often heard in Eastern Christian circles and there's nothing wrong with it so long as we know what it is saying. Part of the opposition to the word, however, owes to the fact that while the word Theotokos is all right, most of the people who defend the use of it belong to churches that also teach other things about Mary...and those are not Scriptural (Immaculate Conception, bodily Assumption, intercessor of all prayers, and on and on).

 

[Faith]

@Faith


The Lutheran Confessions say nothing about the Assumption of Mary. Thus, it is not doctrine in the LCMS.

That does not mean ergo it is declared heresy but it does mean it is not taught as doctrine. While many Lutherans expressed a "pious opinion" regarding the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, that too is not doctrine in Lutheranism but UNLIKE the Assumption of Mary, the PVM was commonly held as pious opinion although not so much currently.

The Catholic Church does not officially teach that Mary died OR that she did not, there is no doctrine on that point. Both views are held by Catholics.





The LCMS doesn't believe anything about that.

No one knows what happened to the bones of Mary. The same is true of my great uncle (he was an officer on a submarine during WWII... the sub and the bodies aboard it have never been found). But just because the bones have not been found is not dogmatic confirmation of an essential fact that ergo my great uncle was assumed into heaven; his bones not being found means this: his bones have not been found. That's it, that's all, ain't rocket science.





Totally unrelated to the Assumption of Mary.....

Matre Dei (Latin for Mother of God, a title mostly used in the West) or Theotokos (Greek for God bearer, a title used mostly in the East) are both TITLES for Mary and not doctrines. Not teachings, not doctrine, not dogma. Nowhere. Ever. They are simply (and only) titles that affirm that since Jesus is God and since Mary is the mother of Jesus ergo Mary is the mother of God or bearer of God. These are TITLES for Mary since the Early Church. Lutherans at times use the term "Matre Dei" as well (it's found in our Confessions) but again, only as a title.





Again, nowhere mentioned in the Lutheran Confessions. Not as doctrine, not as heresy. The Confessions are silent on this. But I know of no Lutherans (past or present) that personally affirm it. I doubt you personally would be shot or even excommunicated if you held this as pious opinion but who knows.




Faith,

When you are Confirmed and/or officially join an LCMS parish, you will be asked if you accept the teachings found here (not including the Table of Duties). Click on the link here: The Small Catechism I encourage you yet again to READ this. Then post if you have questions about anything here that you will be asked if you agree with (rather than issues you won't be asked to agree with).





.

MAYBE if my questions bug you SO much, you should just SKIP over them?

 

[Joshua1Eight]

There is a text known as Transitus Mariae that speaks of the assumption of Mary.

Most western versions of this text date back to a 5th century translation.

The original that the fifth century text is alleged to be a translation of, is attributed to Melito of Sardis who died around 180AD.

There seems to be some scholarly discussion about a Syriac version of the text that is alleged to be the basis of that 5th century translation, but most of what I could find about it lies behind paywalls of various academic sites.

 

[Josiah]

MAYBE if my questions bug you SO much, you should just SKIP over them?

@Faith


Read post #8. I went to some trouble to answer your question....

But I note a common denominator in your LCMS threads, they tend to be about non-binding, non-authoritative opinions that you claim are common in the LCMS. Okay... but you seem to be missing something, the common denominator of them, they tend to be about non-binding, non-authoritative opinions that you claim are common in the LCMS. Again, the doctrines of the LCMS are all found - verbatim, in black and white words - in a single book, The Book of Concord, the Lutheran Confessions. And as a lay person, the things you'll be asked if you agree with are all found in the Small Catechism found in the Book of Concord. It's very short, it's a very easy read. Those of the things that matter... yet you don't seem to be concerned about that at all. Odd.

I suspect there are a LOT of popular opinions among LCMS members.... Toyotas are good cars, the Republican Party is better than the Democrat Party, Coffee is a popular morning drink, it's good to fly the American flag, brats taste good - oh LOTS of common opinions! But, my friend, none of those are doctrines of the LCMS... none of those things are even mentioned in the Lutheran Confessions... you won't be asked about any of them if you are Confirmed in an LCMS parish. We can talk about whether coffee is a good morning drink or if folks can have a flag flying at their house but these are not Lutheran issues. And they are not Lutheran doctrines. And you won't be asked your opinions of those things if you are Confirmed in an LCMS parish. And my reaction, as now Lutheran, is that these should not be what determines if you join an LCMS parish.

This website WELCOMES such discussions (we have entire forums for such). Jazzy is our most active poster for such (often starting threads on such things). Jazzy usually doesn't post these in the Denomination forum because rarely are they denomination issues (good ones but not denomination ones).


Faith, MANY of us here have changed faith communities... and I think all of us are sympathetic to others considering such and want to be helpful. I'm certainly in that group! And I've spent some time and energy TRYING to help you with the things you bring up. It's just that you appear to be uber-focused on issues that aren't Lutheran or divisive (and in some cases aren't Catholic either), issues where you can hold to pretty much any view and it doesn't impact your becoming (or remaining) Lutheran.




.

 

[Josiah]

In my small Lutheran parish, there was a life-long Lutheran member who recently left our church and joined a Methodist church near-by.

He is VERY politically liberal and seems quite obsessed with politics. He was always talking politics.... over coffee at fellowship time, at the potluck, whenever he was talking. It was always politics and the correctness of liberalism and the Democratic Party. All the time. And for the past 6 years or so, this was often ANTI-TRUMP. "Mr. Orange Man" as he always referred to him. A real passionate hatred of the man.

Ours is a very embracing church... and well, we all just accepted that this was our brother and friend. People listened and smiled and just knew the best thing to do was only that, whether you agreed with him or not. I felt that he was loved and embraced - just not always agreed with. Indeed, I suspect a clear majority of our members are Republicans (although not all of them Trump supporters) but that didn't matter, this member was a part of our family. And as with any and all families, there are opinions/views that might not be widely shared. Life. It's how it goes.

Well, he stopped coming to church. Finally, contact was made... and it was learned he stopped coming to our church because "the people like Trump." He said he had starting going to a Methodist Church because "people there know the truth about Mr Orange Man."


Now... nothing here against The Methodist Church or Methodist theology... nothing here pro or con Donald Trump (although I don't like him being referred to as "Mr. Orange Man") but I think this is just one of the baseless reasons I've heard for changing churches and faith communities. And I wonder if this former parish member investigated what the UMC believes and teaches.... or just what percentage of folks going to a certain UMC church seemed to agree with his political views? Now, I'd have a more supportive/sympathetic feeling if he left because he rejects Real Presence or holds that baptizing infants is sinful and forbidden, but because of how some church goers feel about a former president?



.

 

[Faith]

In my small Lutheran parish, there was a life-long Lutheran member who recently left our church and joined a Methodist church near-by.

He is VERY politically liberal and seems quite obsessed with politics. He was always talking politics.... over coffee at fellowship time, at the potluck, whenever he was talking. It was always politics and the correctness of liberalism and the Democratic Party. All the time. And for the past 6 years or so, this was often ANTI-TRUMP. "Mr. Orange Man" as he always referred to him. A real passionate hatred of the man.

Ours is a very embracing church... and well, we all just accepted that this was our brother and friend. People listened and smiled and just knew the best thing to do was only that, whether you agreed with him or not. I felt that he was loved and embraced - just not always agreed with. Indeed, I suspect a clear majority of our members are Republicans (although not all of them Trump supporters) but that didn't matter, this member was a part of our family. And as with any and all families, there are opinions/views that might not be widely shared. Life. It's how it goes.

Well, he stopped coming to church. Finally, contact was made... and it was learned he stopped coming to our church because "the people like Trump." He said he had starting going to a Methodist Church because "people there know the truth about Mr Orange Man."


Now... nothing here against The Methodist Church or Methodist theology... nothing here pro or con Donald Trump (although I don't like him being referred to as "Mr. Orange Man") but I think this is just one of the baseless reasons I've heard for changing churches and faith communities. And I wonder if this former parish member investigated what the UMC believes and teaches.... or just what percentage of folks going to a certain UMC church seemed to agree with his political views? Now, I'd have a more supportive/sympathetic feeling if he left because he rejects Real Presence or holds that baptizing infants is sinful and forbidden, but because of how some church goers feel about a former president?

You’ve got a private conversation.

Did it go through? I’ve been having some trouble sending mail on here.