LAW and GOSPEL

[Josiah]

There have been several discussions of these, often by folks who are enemies of Law and Gospel - those who need to belittle, water-down, confuse and entangle the two in order to engrandize self and diminish God and Christ.


This is about 5 minutes long.... please watch it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QaFNNAQ6Zs




The LAW:

What is the Law?

The Law is the will of God - flowing from His absolute perfection and justice. It is, in essence, that we be as He is - not in terms of essence but character.


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."

There are at least 613 laws specifically written just in the Old Testament. We think often of the Ten Commandments but actually there are many, many more just in the OT - and still more in the NT.




What does the Law mandate?

Essentially, that our character be identical to His.


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."




The word "sin" literally means "to miss the mark." In ancient Greece, if an archer missed the target, the therefore "sinned" because he missed the mark, missed the target. The Bible says "ALL fall short." IF you have absolutely, perfectly, divinely, 24/7 "hit" all the targets above, then you are obedient and free of sin. Otherwise...... Well, the Bible would be correct and not lying when it says that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "For ALL fall short." "NO ONE is good." "If you claim to have no sin (you hit the mark), then you lie and call God a liar."


The LAW has two functions:

Civil - Our relationships in this fallen world. This was not given until around 1400 BC when the first Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, with a purpose of GUIDING peoples' relationships. This is very much like our own national laws - they govern relationships. Civil law does not get us into heaven, it helps us get along with others, it helps our society work better.... if everyone kept the law, this would be a nicer place in which to live and die (and eventually go to hell). This applies just as much to non-Christians as to Christians - it applies to all.

The Law cannot save - and in this first use, it's not remotely its intention. Now.... true..... IF we kept all the law, we'd go to heaven (because we would not NEED God or Christ or mercy or forgiveness or salvation or justification or the Cross or the Blood - we'd not need the Gospel - because we'd essentially be God: divinely perfect, divinely holy, divinely loving..... totally, absolutely..... 100%....... 24/7...... but then in that case, we'd not need the civil law because we'd be perfect - in nature, in being, in attitude, in thought, in word, in deed.

We can NEVER achieve the Law (and we don't). Like Paul, we must confess that we are "CHIEF OF SINNERS" and that we are not - not - perfect as God demands.... but we CAN press on toward that. Why? Because Jesus was a joke and Christianity is wrong - we gotta save ourselves? WE save SELF via the Law - by being absolutely 100% perfect just as God is perfect? Nope. We press on toward that because our life and our world would be a whole lot better off. And because it pleases God whom we love.



Theological - Our relationship to God. This is to drive us to our knees, to drive us to despair, to accuse us, to drive us to God's MERCY, God's HEART, God's FORGIVENESS..... to reveal the need for a Savior, a Cross. We CANNOT and ARE NOT what God intends and commands. That NO ONE is righteous..... NO ONE is good..... every other religion on the planet is fundamentally wrong because we cannot clean up our act and become what God mandates: absolutely perfect, absolutely holy, absolutely loving.... if anyone CLAIMS to be without sin (to always hit the mark), well.... to be blunt..... they LIE and DECEIVE themselves (but no one else - least of all God!). We are SINNERS! We MISS THE MARK! We are FALLEN! We need SALVATION, MERCY, JUSTIFICATION... IF we look to the LAW as the tool of salvation, ALL that happens is that we get slapped down - completely, totally, every time. (Note: THIS is why people want to water down the law SO MUCH as to make it unrecognizable, insulting God and the Law - all to make it so that we can boast "but I keep the Law - I don't need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy - I got ME!!!" All as an enemy of Christ, a destroyer of the Gospel, all in an attempt to substitute the theology of Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism in place of Christianity - to promote THEIR soteriology which is "Self saves self although because of the TIME and HELP which God provides")

The theological use is to ask ourselves, "Am I all that God commands?" The only reasonable answer is: "NO!" And thus to flee to the mercy seat of God, the heart of God..... He who says "Yes" the Bible specifically says is a "fool" and is a "liar"

BOTH of these functions continue after justification..... we are STILL called to be absolutely, divinely PERFECT, we are still called to live civilly in society; indeed Christians have unique commands: to love EXACTLY as Christ did, to LIVE exactly as Christ did, to make disciples of all 7.3 billion people, etc. The Law doesn't disappear or get watered down to nothing (as some Christians insist) when we are justified... but it also has nothing to do with our justification just because we are justified.





The GOSPEL


What is the Gospel?

It is the heart of God, the mercy of God, what God has done FOR us, the gifts from God, the promises of God - all in view of CHRIST alone: the Cross, the Blood, the Empty Tomb.


Galatians 2:21, "If justification were through the Law then Christ died for no purpose."

Philippians 3:9, "Not because of our works, lest anyone can boast."

Romans 3:20, "No human being will be justified in God's sight by works of the Law."

First John 4:10, "Not that we love God but rather that He loves us."

First John 4:8, "God is love."

John 3:16, "For God so (unconditionally) love the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life."

Romans 5:8, "God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies of God, Christ died for us."

First John 2:2, "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Titus 3:5, "God saves us not because of our deeds of righteousness but rather in view of His own mercy."

Romans 6:23, "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing but rather it is the free gift of God."

John 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life."



This Gospel also applies to our lives as Christians....

Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave you or forsake you."

First John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, God is faithful to His promise and will forgive our sins."

.... and so VERY much more.... all entirely because of the heart of God, the unconditional love of God, the mercy of God.... in view of the Lamb, the Blood, the Cross, the Christ, the Savior.




The Law does not negate or cancel or diminish the Gospel.... nor does the Gospel negate, cancel or diminish the Law... both are real, both are true, both stand in ALL their force and truth... and they can only accomplish their task if we allow them to stand FULLY - not watering them down, not confusing them, not entangling them, not misapplying them. A Christian (one who is justified, narrow - by Christ ALONE, by the SAVIOR, via the Cross, because of the Gospel!) is still called to absolute, total, divine perfection, holiness, obedience, love... still called to always, perfectly HIT THE MARK, right on, every time, 24/7, as much as God does, in our nature, our being, our attitude, our thoughts, our words, our deeds: both for civil reasons AND so that we realize we fail and need Gods' mercy. We strive forward because we love God and because this is the will of God..... but we never fully attain it, we miss the mark, we fall short more often and more greatly than we realize. And so, thanks be to God, the Gospel remains (FULLY, completely, in all its' power and force and beauty): God is merciful, God forgives, because of the Lamb, because of the Cross, because of the Blood, because of His unconditional love, because of His Son, because there is the SAVIOR - Jesus Christ.


Continues in Post # 3.





Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah





.

 

[psalms 91]

It has nothing to do with being in control of our salvation but it has everything to do with the commandments of Christ, there are things that we have to do in order to call ourselves disciples of Christ. Evangelize for one, confess and beieve for salvation. It has nothing to do woith elevating oneself but everything to do with what the word tells us

 

[Josiah]

Philippians 3:12-14, "Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." Paul is NOT obedient, he is the "Chief of sinners!" Paul is not looking to the Law for justification but for his life as one who is justified. And he "presses on" (accepting the call of the Law to PERFECTION) not so that He might be saved.... not so that God will love him.... not so that he will become God's own.... but because he IS loved, IS God's own - this has to do with the life of the justified, not the cause of justification.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is way too easy to pick isolated verses out of saint Paul's letters and say "there you go! that's proof that my doctrine is right!" but it is not proof. Christians ought to read the sermon on the mount and see what Jesus says about living in communion with God. And Christians ought to remember that saint Paul never saw himself as originating the gospel or changing it for saint Paul the Sermon on the Mount is still pivotal.

• Blessed are the poor in spirit: the kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
• Blessed are the gentle: they shall have the earth as inheritance.
• Blessed are those who mourn: they shall be comforted.
• Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for uprightness: they shall have their fill.
• Blessed are the merciful: they shall have mercy shown them.
• Blessed are the pure in heart: they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers: they shall be recognised as children of God.
• Blessed are those who are persecuted in the cause of uprightness: the kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
• Blessed are you when people abuse you and persecute you and speak all kinds of calumny against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven; this is how they persecuted the prophets before you.
• You are salt for the earth. But if salt loses its taste, what can make it salty again? It is good for nothing, and can only be thrown out to be trampled under people's feet.
• You are light for the world. A city built on a hill-top cannot be hidden. No one lights a lamp to put it under a tub; they put it on the lamp-stand where it shines for everyone in the house. In the same way your light must shine in people's sight, so that, seeing your good works, they may give praise to your Father in heaven.
• Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them. In truth I tell you, till heaven and earth disappear, not one dot, not one little stroke, is to disappear from the Law until all its purpose is achieved. Therefore, anyone who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of Heaven; but the person who keeps them and teaches them will be considered great in the kingdom of Heaven.
• For I tell you, if your uprightness does not surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never get into the kingdom of Heaven.
• You have heard how it was said to our ancestors, You shall not kill; and if anyone does kill he must answer for it before the court. But I say this to you, anyone who is angry with a brother will answer for it before the court; anyone who calls a brother "Fool" will answer for it before the Sanhedrin; and anyone who calls him "Traitor" will answer for it in hell fire. So then, if you are bringing your offering to the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar, go and be reconciled with your brother first, and then come back and present your offering. Come to terms with your opponent in good time while you are still on the way to the court with him, or he may hand you over to the judge and the judge to the officer, and you will be thrown into prison. In truth I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the last penny.
• You have heard how it was said, You shall not commit adultery. But I say this to you, if a man looks at a woman lustfully, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye should be your downfall, tear it out and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body thrown into hell. And if your right hand should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body go to hell.
• It has also been said, Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a writ of dismissal. But I say this to you, everyone who divorces his wife, except for the case of an illicit marriage, makes her an adulteress; and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
• Again, you have heard how it was said to our ancestors, You must not break your oath, but must fulfil your oaths to the Lord. But I say this to you, do not swear at all, either by heaven, since that is God's throne; or by earth, since that is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, since that is the city of the great King. Do not swear by your own head either, since you cannot turn a single hair white or black. All you need say is "Yes" if you mean yes, "No" if you mean no; anything more than this comes from the Evil One.
• You have heard how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if anyone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well; if someone wishes to go to law with you to get your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone requires you to go one mile, go two miles with him. Give to anyone who asks you, and if anyone wants to borrow, do not turn away.
• You have heard how it was said, You will love your neighbour and hate your enemy. But I say this to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; so that you may be children of your Father in heaven, for he causes his sun to rise on the bad as well as the good, and sends down rain to fall on the upright and the wicked alike. For if you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Do not even the tax collectors do as much? And if you save your greetings for your brothers, are you doing anything exceptional? Do not even the gentiles do as much? You must therefore be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
• Be careful not to parade your uprightness in public to attract attention; otherwise you will lose all reward from your Father in heaven. So when you give alms, do not have it trumpeted before you; this is what the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets to win human admiration. In truth I tell you, they have had their reward. But when you give alms, your left hand must not know what your right is doing; your almsgiving must be secret, and your Father who sees all that is done in secret will reward you.
• And when you pray, do not imitate the hypocrites: they love to say their prayers standing up in the synagogues and at the street corners for people to see them. In truth I tell you, they have had their reward. But when you pray, go to your private room, shut yourself in, and so pray to your Father who is in that secret place, and your Father who sees all that is done in secret will reward you.
• In your prayers do not babble as the gentiles do, for they think that by using many words they will make themselves heard. Do not be like them; your Father knows what you need before you ask him. So you should pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be held holy, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven those who are in debt to us. And do not put us to the test, but save us from the Evil One.
• Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly Father will forgive you yours; but if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive your failings either.

... <I had to clip some of the sermon because the post size limit was reached>
Jesus had now finished what he wanted to say, and his teaching made a deep impression on the people because he taught them with authority, unlike their own scribes.
(Matthew 5:1-7:29)

 

[Lamb]

The Gospel (Good News) is a promise. It's always about God doing, not man.

 

[Alithis]

It has nothing to do with being in control of our salvation but it has everything to do with the commandments of Christ, there are things that we have to do in order to call ourselves disciples of Christ. Evangelize for one, confess and believe for salvation. It has nothing to do with elevating oneself but everything to do with what the word tells us

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

-in blazing fire. He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might,… HMM no law involved all new testament stuff -there is a vast difference between knowing the truth and obeying the truth .


Through him(Christ) you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

there is just escape nor excuse from or for disobedience ...


John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

etc

 

[Josiah]

It is way too easy to pick isolated verses out of saint Paul's letters and say "there you go! that's proof that my doctrine is right!" but it is not proof. Christians ought to read the sermon on the mount and see what Jesus says about living in communion with God.

They certainly CAN read Law, because I believe it ALL still applies (not the watered-down-to-NOTHING you promote, but in it's fullness). It's just that Law is law - not Gospel, and one cannot save self by keeping the Law (thus making Jesus a bad, stupid joke and making Christianity wrong and Bhakti Hinduism correct). You want to make the LAW how one saves self - and thus diminish Christ to nothingness and engrandize self to divinity, everything by confusing law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and Christ, to make Christ as small as possible and self as big as possible, all to give support of your idea what we are to trust in Self rather than Christ, look in the mirror rather than to the Cross for justification.

And Christians ought

Perhaps, but if one is a CHRISTIAN before the "ought" than the "ought" didn't cause them to be a Christian. And you are - again - mixing Law and Gospel, sanctification/discipleship with justification/salvation, you are simply trying to make it all about YOU and nothing about Christ, to make Christ small and self BIG....




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Gospel (Good News) is a promise. It's always about God doing, not man.

That does not appear to be how the four canonical gospels present the gospel. Jesus preached the gospel and it included all sorts of commands and all sorts of advice. The sermon on the mount is gospel and it advises on how to pray as well as what to do and what not to do in order to please God. I reckon Jesus knows what the gospel is better than theologians who make a radical separation between gospel and obedience.

 

[Josiah]

John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

LAW. Do you? Are you absolutely, totally PERFECT even as and to the same extent that God is? 24/7? Perfectly, 100%? In nature, in being, in attitude, in thoughts, in words in deeds? Are you HOLY exactly as and to the same extent as God Himself is in heaven? Perfectly? 24/7? In nature, in being, in attitude, in thoughts, in words, in deeds? IF so, then you prove Scripture wrong which says that NO ONE is righteous, not even one. NO ONE is even good except God exclusively. NO ONE does what is right. If one claims to be without sin - obeying... always hitting the mark, then (God says) that one therefore is a LIAR and only deceives himself (certainly not God and probably not a single person).

Now, you want to diminish this to the point of being nothing..... maybe "try kinda hard sometimes" "try to be better than the idiot, bozo, evil person next door" so that YOU can CLAIM you fullfill the Law - but you don't. You just hate the Law as much as you hate the Gospel. You just want to make yourself look good and Christ look irrelevant, tiny, small, moot.

Yes, the JUSTIFIED/SAVED... Christians.... still have the Law (as I said in the opening post, perhaps you never read the opening post). But you are wrong to ignore and reject and deny the Gospel and look to the LAW as the mode for your justification. You have chosen to accept the Law (although I'm SURE you've watered down the Law so much as to be unrecognizable, in rebelling against that Law and God), you are looking to the Law as what saves... and yourself as your savior..... ignoring what Scripture states: that NO ONE keeps the Law, NO ONE is righteous, NO ONE is good, ALL fall short, ALL miss the mark, if we CLAIM to be without sin we LIE and DECEIVE ONLY OURSELVES. Your rejection, hatred, opposition of the Gospel simply leaves you without a Savior, without mercy - all on your own deceiving self.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

LAW. Do you? Are you absolutely, totally PERFECT even as and to the same extent that God is? 24/7? Perfectly, 100%? In nature, in being, in attitude, in thoughts, in words in deeds? Are you HOLY exactly as and to the same extent as God Himself is in heaven? Perfectly? 24/7? In nature, in being, in attitude, in thoughts, in words, in deeds? IF so, then you prove Scripture wrong which says that NO ONE is righteous, not even one. NO ONE is even good except God exclusively. NO ONE does what is right. If one claims to be without sin - obeying... always hitting the mark, then (God says) that one therefore is a LIAR and only deceives himself (certainly not God and probably not a single person).

Now, you want to diminish this to the point of being nothing..... maybe "try kinda hard sometimes" "try to be better than the idiot, bozo, evil person next door" so that YOU can CLAIM you fulfill the Law - but you don't. You just hate the Law as much as you hate the Gospel. You just want to make yourself look good and Christ look irrelevant, tiny, small, moot.

If you can save yourself via the Law - then Christ died for no purpose and you are opposed to the central point of the Christian faith: that Jesus is the SAVIOR (not you), you are simply an enemy of the Gospel and looking in the mirror for the savior, claiming that self is perfect, holy, obedient, keeping the Law, hitting the mark. As the Bible says, you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you. You are simply promoting the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism (self brings self to the point where self don't need no God, no Savior, no mercy, no Cross, no Blood, no Gospel, no Christ cuz you got you who is perfect).




.

 

[Josiah]

]The sermon on the mount is gospel

Perhaps you've not yet read it. I recommend that you do! It's mostly about what God commands us to do, NOT about what God does for us, what God promises us. You continue to show how you must entangle, confuse, mix up Law and Gospel in order to support your opposition to Christ and your engrandizing of yourself, your looking to fulfilling the Law as the mode of justification in order to render Christ a bad joke, irrelevant, moot - you don't need the Gospel because you have you fulfilling the Law - the mandate to be perfect just as and to the same extent that God is, the mandate to love just as and to the same extent that Christ did on the Cross, the mandate to fulfill all 613 laws perfectly, 24/7, the mandate to make disciples of all 7.3 billion people, the mandate to have the exact same attitudes that Christ had 24/7, etc. Since you oppose the Gospel and want to chose to look to the Law and in the mirror - then you need to DO what the Law commands. Do you? IF so, then you make Scripture wrong when it says, "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "NO ONE is good but God exclusively." ALL fall short and miss the mark." "If one claims to be without sin, he is a LIAR and deceives only himself." Good luck.

what to do and what not to do in order to please God.

That's the Law states. Do you do it all? Perfectly? Totally? Absolutely? As God does? To the extent God does? 24/7? If so then I understand your opposition to the Gospel, the reason you so rarely even so much as mention Christ and almost never even mention the Cross, the Blood, the Lamb, the MERCY of God, your constant NEED for forgiveness.... your promotion of the Jewish/Islamic/Hindu mode of soteriology: self saves self via the Law with TIME and HELP from God. But then Scripture says, "If justification were through keeping the Law, then Christ died for no purpose" "If you claim to be without sin, you LIE and DECEIVE yourself."

If you don't have a SAVIOR .... and you don't obey the LAW..... you reject the Gospel and fail at the Law.... where does that leave you? How is THAT working out for you? Well... there is the LDS soteriology (which also rejects both Law and Gospel).... "try your BEST and God will overlook the rest." Also a Christless, Crossless, Bloodless, religion that rejects BOTH Law and Gospel and ultimately is unachieveable since NO ONE EVER "does the best they can".... maybe you are a Mormon.





Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

That does not appear to be how the four canonical gospels present the gospel. Jesus preached the gospel and it included all sorts of commands and all sorts of advice. The sermon on the mount is gospel and it advises on how to pray as well as what to do and what not to do in order to please God. I reckon Jesus knows what the gospel is better than theologians who make a radical separation between gospel and obedience.

Jesus of course preached Law to the people when they needed to hear it.

The Law is given to show us our sin. The Gospel is given to comfort us and it speaks of God doing. What you don't understand is that some verses actually contain BOTH Law and Gospel.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Jesus of course preached Law to the people when they needed to hear it.

The Law is given to show us our sin. The Gospel is given to comfort us and it speaks of God doing. What you don't understand is that some verses actually contain BOTH Law and Gospel.

Look at what the gospels say. They call Jesus' preaching "the gospel" but they do not pretend to divide between LAW and GOSPEL in those sermons as you do. That is because the division your theology makes is not present in the gospels nor in saint Paul nor in any of the holy scriptures unless they are wrested from their context and forced to serve the radical LAW vs GOSPEL theology.

 

[Lamb]

Look at what the gospels say. They call Jesus' preaching "the gospel" but they do not pretend to divide between LAW and GOSPEL in those sermons as you do. That is because the division your theology makes is not present in the gospels nor in saint Paul nor in any of the holy scriptures unless they are wrested from their context and forced to serve the radical LAW vs GOSPEL theology.

If you do not see the difference between "you" and "Christ, God, Savior Holy Spirit" then I cannot help you see it.

 

[psalms 91]

Look at what the gospels say. They call Jesus' preaching "the gospel" but they do not pretend to divide between LAW and GOSPEL in those sermons as you do. That is because the division your theology makes is not present in the gospels nor in saint Paul nor in any of the holy scriptures unless they are wrested from their context and forced to serve the radical LAW vs GOSPEL theology.

Yup

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you do not see the difference between "you" and "Christ, God, Savior Holy Spirit" then I cannot help you see it.

Since Christ is in the faithful and the faithful are the body of Christ it appears to be a serious theological error to sharply divide the faithful from Christ.

 

[Alithis]

its a reference to elsewhere but, i THINK, ..some one here still thinks that when Jesus said .. "if you love me you will keep my commandments "..that he was referring to the mosaic law ..
he wasn't !



when we place the text into its context ..the lord jesus is in a conversation and he does not stop at that verse .. but goes on a number of times to reiterate that he means .. if we love him we will do what HE tells us to do ..nothing whatsoever to do with law -everything to do with loving obedience

"The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
“I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.
“These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. "

so how do we know Jesus loves the father ? because he does whatever the father tells him to do

how then do we know we love JESUS ?.. when we do whatever the lord Jesus ,by the holy Spirit , tells us to do .

there is no law being taught what so ever , it is just a smoke screen thrown up by those who are unwilling to be obedient .adam did not sin by breaking the old testament law .. he sinned by disobeying God -and so sin came to all .
Jesus did not reestablish righteousness by the law, but by OBEYING his father .. and so righteousness comes to many through him .
adam's disobedience to the father made us all slaves to disobedience.
christ's Obedience to the father makes us servants of Obedience ..so as we learn .. if we continue in disobedience we are not living IN christ.

nothing to do with law .

 

[psalms 91]

Yes do what He tells us, what did He tell us, that the two greatest commandments fulfilled all ten, does that sound like they were done away with? He also tells us that not one jot or tittle willpass away from the law and that He did not come to destroy or do away with the Law but to fulfill it.

 

[Josiah]

Since Christ is in the faithful and the faithful are the body of Christ it appears to be a serious theological error to sharply divide the faithful from Christ.

One reason to reject the Catholic view that Jesus is the HELPER or POSSIBILITY-MAKER but not Savior - we have to save ourselves (adequately using the TIME and HELP God provides). When you post on and on concerning justification, you separate everything from Christ by typically not even so much as mentioning Him (even in passing to SOUND Christian) and you never mention the Cross, the Blood, the Sacrifice, mercy - just YOU - adequately using the HELP from your denomination, its current saints, its claim to a treasury of MERITS, its claimed Mother, its exactly SEVEN Sacraments your denomination owns and doles out, and (while you usually fail to mention it) the enabling of Jesus. In terms of justification, this separates you from Christ and places everything on YOUR "faithfulness" , this separates you from the Gospel (which you largely reject) and you will embrace only the Law (although I suspect a "law" SO watered down as to be a joke - but this watering down is needed for you to think you will actually obey it). What you do is separate yourself from Christ, the Gospel, the Cross, the Blood, the Lamb, mercy (which is why you don't mention them and are angered at those of us who believe that Jesus is the Savior and thus not self), you look in the mirror rather than the Cross (separating yourself from Christ).... you look to you fulfilling the Law rather than Christ supplying the Gospel.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

Since Christ is in the faithful and the faithful are the body of Christ it appears to be a serious theological error to sharply divide the faithful from Christ.

Divide? Distinction isn't dividing.

 

[Alithis]

Yes do what He tells us, what did He tell us, that the two greatest commandments fulfilled all ten, does that sound like they were done away with? He also tells us that not one jot or tittle willpass away from the law and that He did not come to destroy or do away with the Law but to fulfill it.

well he said to love the lord God with all our heart etc.. then he said if you do you will do as i tell you ,you will do what i say .. what has he told us to do ?
To GO out
-Heal the sick
-preach the gospel
-Drive out demons
-Baptize in his name
-and make more disciples..
this is what he has told us to do

So any one who says they love the lord and is not making any attempt to do any of these things (but making a pile of excuses ) is displaying by theier action that they love themselves more then they love the lord
All their pious words are hot air and falsehood if their is no action accompanying them

it is not the servant who says yes yes lord but then does not go ... who is rewarded .
\But the servant who Goes and does the will of the master .