Judge not least ye be judged

[Andrew]

Do you believe it's right for Christians to go about shaming and protesting against people that are already stiff necked and hard hearted in effort to convert them?
My understanding is that we should heal the sick, clothed the poor and raise the spiritually dead and not to have anything to do with those who reject God, they have their reward. I find it a waste of energy and a bit hypocritical to point fingers when we are all equal in sin, I am no less a sinner than a murderer is yet I have not murdered... Belief and Faith will bring forth good works... shaming others only turns people away and condemns oneself.
I was in a debate with a pro abortionist online who eventually asked if I were a Christian, I said yes and she started calling me a hypocrite and bias because I won't support her right to choice, I told her I would not support it because I am taught not to have anything to do with 'them'.
I feel I didn't have to boast that I am a Christian nor did I feel it was my duty to convert her or debate with devils, so I dropped it.
Jesus never cast out demons out of a Pharisees as a man, Paul was dealt with by God, so why do we think we should be attempting to drive out demons out of wicked people? Isnt that Gods duty?
Anyway, it's been on my mind today, earlier I saw a picture posted online of Christians protesting and shaming homosexuals and atheist etc.. , I feel its a waste of energy.
I would post some scripture but I would end up posting all of Romans lol

 

[psalms 91]

Truth is that this scripture is misused quite a bit, we were never to judge those still in the world and for those in the church there are guidlines on how to do it and from what I see it very seldom is. This scripture has been used to justify and excuse peoples bad behaviour.

 

[Josiah]

Speak the truth always with love...


1. I think there is a difference between JUDGING and CORRECTING. Judging is a Pharisical put down (in hopes of making self look better in comparison), it is loveless and seeks to harm. Correcting is about lifting up, helping one another, it is loving and seeks to help. Attitude, motivation, purpose - they have a LOT to do with it.


2. IMO, "tolerance" (a religion in our secular, materialistic world) is in many ways the antithesis of love.... it says "I don't give a ______" if you are helped or harmed or what happens to you or others as a result, I just don't give a ______." Parents tolerating their sons drug addiction or daughters sexual misconduct is not loving or helpful. But like so many things in secular society, there's a radical double standard: OTHERS are to be tolerant of ME and MY values and philosophies ..... I'm not to be tolerant of anyone or anything, most of all of intolerance.



.

 

[Ruth]

I try not to judge people and sometimes it's hard not to but I strive to understand and help rather than judge and condemn.

 

[Andrew]

I try not to judge people and sometimes it's hard not to but I strive to understand and help rather than judge and condemn.

One on one is a good thing, we should be good stewards and correct others at the best of our ability and be empathetic to others.
When it comes to the hard headed "majority'... We can't just go in like rambo and expect victory, we should only worry about our neighbor (a personal investment), this is more effective than trying to convert a 'mass' of individuals to believe in the Lord. One step at a time, but let God handle the mass majority.
Again, it is wise to invest (as you do Ruth) to individuals, but we should never banner groups of malicious behavior as a whole and expect to have a positive outcome but solely through prayer...
Parading through the streets however, is total hypocrisy because it only satisfies ego and makes no impact IMO.
Slow and steady wins the race

 

[Ruth]

One on one is a good thing, we should be good stewards and correct others at the best of our ability and be empathetic to others.
When it comes to the hard headed "majority'... We can't just go in like rambo and expect victory, we should only worry about our neighbor (a personal investment), this is more effective than trying to convert a 'mass' of individuals to believe in the Lord. One step at a time, but let God handle the mass majority.
Again, it is wise to invest (as you do Ruth) to individuals, but we should never banner groups of malicious behavior as a whole and expect to have a positive outcome but solely through prayer...
Parading through the streets however, is total hypocrisy because it only satisfies ego and makes no impact IMO.
Slow and steady wins the race

I agree!

 

[tango]

Do you believe it's right for Christians to go about shaming and protesting against people that are already stiff necked and hard hearted in effort to convert them?
My understanding is that we should heal the sick, clothed the poor and raise the spiritually dead and not to have anything to do with those who reject God, they have their reward. I find it a waste of energy and a bit hypocritical to point fingers when we are all equal in sin, I am no less a sinner than a murderer is yet I have not murdered... Belief and Faith will bring forth good works... shaming others only turns people away and condemns oneself.
I was in a debate with a pro abortionist online who eventually asked if I were a Christian, I said yes and she started calling me a hypocrite and bias because I won't support her right to choice, I told her I would not support it because I am taught not to have anything to do with 'them'.
I feel I didn't have to boast that I am a Christian nor did I feel it was my duty to convert her or debate with devils, so I dropped it.
Jesus never cast out demons out of a Pharisees as a man, Paul was dealt with by God, so why do we think we should be attempting to drive out demons out of wicked people? Isnt that Gods duty?
Anyway, it's been on my mind today, earlier I saw a picture posted online of Christians protesting and shaming homosexuals and atheist etc.. , I feel its a waste of energy.
I would post some scripture but I would end up posting all of Romans lol

What's the point of trying to shame someone who is proud of their lifestyle?

Seriously, a lot of the protesting that some Christians get involved in achieves little. We need to be for Jesus, doing the things Jesus told us to do. Jesus never told us to go out and protest about stuff. Neither did he tell us not to protest, so we would need to consider a protest in the light of the commandments Jesus did give us. The "God Hates Fags" style of protesting done by certain "churches" doesn't look much like anything Jesus would have done, if you ask me.

As for the whole "judge not" line it gets so badly misused it's almost comical. Between the people who demand their overt sinfulness musn't be judged (because, you know, "judge not"), the people who teach weird and wacky theology and demand they can't be judged, and the people who wring their hands and insist that anything is acceptable because of that "judge not" command, the actual meaning gets lost.

The truth is that we must judge. Gal 6:1 talks of restoring a brother who has fallen into sin and we can't do that unless we first judge that they have, in fact, fallen into sin. Then there's the whole "test all things" matter from 1Th 5, and the call to put false teachers out from among us from (I think) Romans 17. Jesus himself warned of false christs and false prophets and taught us how we could tell them by their fruits - which clearly means we have to judge the fruit.

The issue is that we have to judge righteously. I can see a man's actions but can't see his heart. If I see someone's teaching and point out that it directly contradicts Scripture this is an appropriate judgement. I'd expect to be judged the same way (i.e. whether or not I align with Scripture) when I teach. If I notice that person's teaching contradicts Scripture and therefore conclude they are deliberately trying to lead people astray I cross the line - I can't see their heart and for all I know they could be misguided and genuinely believe what they are teaching. It doesn't make the teaching sound but there's a difference between someone who makes an honest mistake, however serious the consequences, and someone who deliberately misleads.

James talks of teachers receiving a harsher judgment, and rightly so, and I can only imagine how much harsher still it will be for those who deliberately mislead than for those who mislead because they themselves are misled.

 

[Andrew]

What's the point of trying to shame someone who is proud of their lifestyle?

Seriously, a lot of the protesting that some Christians get involved in achieves little. We need to be for Jesus, doing the things Jesus told us to do. Jesus never told us to go out and protest about stuff. Neither did he tell us not to protest, so we would need to consider a protest in the light of the commandments Jesus did give us. The "God Hates Fags" style of protesting done by certain "churches" doesn't look much like anything Jesus would have done, if you ask me.

As for the whole "judge not" line it gets so badly misused it's almost comical. Between the people who demand their overt sinfulness musn't be judged (because, you know, "judge not"), the people who teach weird and wacky theology and demand they can't be judged, and the people who wring their hands and insist that anything is acceptable because of that "judge not" command, the actual meaning gets lost.

The truth is that we must judge. Gal 6:1 talks of restoring a brother who has fallen into sin and we can't do that unless we first judge that they have, in fact, fallen into sin. Then there's the whole "test all things" matter from 1Th 5, and the call to put false teachers out from among us from (I think) Romans 17. Jesus himself warned of false christs and false prophets and taught us how we could tell them by their fruits - which clearly means we have to judge the fruit.

The issue is that we have to judge righteously. I can see a man's actions but can't see his heart. If I see someone's teaching and point out that it directly contradicts Scripture this is an appropriate judgement. I'd expect to be judged the same way (i.e. whether or not I align with Scripture) when I teach. If I notice that person's teaching contradicts Scripture and therefore conclude they are deliberately trying to lead people astray I cross the line - I can't see their heart and for all I know they could be misguided and genuinely believe what they are teaching. It doesn't make the teaching sound but there's a difference between someone who makes an honest mistake, however serious the consequences, and someone who deliberately misleads.

James talks of teachers receiving a harsher judgment, and rightly so, and I can only imagine how much harsher still it will be for those who deliberately mislead than for those who mislead because they themselves are misled.

I agree and I believe it was Paul or Peter who said we shall judge even the angels.
When it comes to teachers of the word that skew the message then it is our duty to judge, but we shouldn't judge our brothers in faith, I don't agree with what the Pope teaches most of the time but I love my Catholic brothers and sisters and we do discuss the word and rightly divide here on the message board. Love thy neighbor etc... but yes I was mainly speaking against shaming and protest.

 

[tango]

I try not to judge people and sometimes it's hard not to but I strive to understand and help rather than judge and condemn.

I think one key issue is the difference between judging actions and judging motivation.

If you know your friend is having an affair it's perfectly reasonable to tell them it's not on and they need to stop. That's judging a known action. It might be hidden (for now at least) but it's something you can objectively know and say is objectively wrong. If I'm going to approach them about it I need to be willing to listen to what they have to say as part of the process. We might all agree that adultery is wrong because of what Scripture says but if it's something where there's disagreement over just what Scripture does prohibit it may be that the friend simply takes a different interpretation of Scripture. So while I might think that drinking alcohol is sinful, he might not and freely partake of a beer or two (this is an example only, not intended to trigger a discussion of whether alcohol is sinful).

On the other hand judging things that are unseen rapidly becomes problematic because it creates so much scope to judge unrighteously. An example thought process might be to see a woman who lives on her own and claims public money rather than working. We might tut and ponder what kind of feckless woman she must be, presumably a single mother with multiple children by multiple different fathers who figured public money is a nice easy gravy train that beats working. But the reality might be that she'd dearly love to work and did once work until an injury prevented her from working any more, and she actually retired early on the grounds of ill health. As soon as we start making assumptions and judging people based on those assumptions, the chances are pretty good we fell foul of the part that says we'll be judged by the same standard.

 

[NewCreation435]

I think we should always keep in mind that if not for the grace of God we would all be lost. As a result, I don't think you draw attention to sin acting as though your better than anyone else because your not. Nothing wrong with calling sin a sin, but you should first examine yourself

 

[TurtleHare]

Do you believe it's right for Christians to go about shaming and protesting against people that are already stiff necked and hard hearted in effort to convert them?
My understanding is that we should heal the sick, clothed the poor and raise the spiritually dead and not to have anything to do with those who reject God, they have their reward. I find it a waste of energy and a bit hypocritical to point fingers when we are all equal in sin, I am no less a sinner than a murderer is yet I have not murdered... Belief and Faith will bring forth good works... shaming others only turns people away and condemns oneself.
I was in a debate with a pro abortionist online who eventually asked if I were a Christian, I said yes and she started calling me a hypocrite and bias because I won't support her right to choice, I told her I would not support it because I am taught not to have anything to do with 'them'.
I feel I didn't have to boast that I am a Christian nor did I feel it was my duty to convert her or debate with devils, so I dropped it.
Jesus never cast out demons out of a Pharisees as a man, Paul was dealt with by God, so why do we think we should be attempting to drive out demons out of wicked people? Isnt that Gods duty?
Anyway, it's been on my mind today, earlier I saw a picture posted online of Christians protesting and shaming homosexuals and atheist etc.. , I feel its a waste of energy.
I would post some scripture but I would end up posting all of Romans lol

Here's my take on this for what it's worth and that might not be much but here goes. It is God's law that does the shaming as none of us fit the bill when it comes to perfection and after that deep accusation then God does what He does best and gives us his salvation by faith. After we're brought to our knees we receive that good old news that God saves us by His Son and all the angels rejoice when a new believer is born.

Now about us bragging about being something special, well, we ain't and that's on account of salvation by faith and not our works because we could boast if it was by works, right? There's no need for a Christian to go about being arrogant about having salvation or doing God's will. We pray for the ones in need of saving and they need to hear that what they're doing is wrong if we have any type of relationship with them because they need to hear it from us in order to hear the good news after. My 2 cents.

 

[Ruth]

I think one key issue is the difference between judging actions and judging motivation.

If you know your friend is having an affair it's perfectly reasonable to tell them it's not on and they need to stop. That's judging a known action. It might be hidden (for now at least) but it's something you can objectively know and say is objectively wrong. If I'm going to approach them about it I need to be willing to listen to what they have to say as part of the process. We might all agree that adultery is wrong because of what Scripture says but if it's something where there's disagreement over just what Scripture does prohibit it may be that the friend simply takes a different interpretation of Scripture. So while I might think that drinking alcohol is sinful, he might not and freely partake of a beer or two (this is an example only, not intended to trigger a discussion of whether alcohol is sinful).

On the other hand judging things that are unseen rapidly becomes problematic because it creates so much scope to judge unrighteously. An example thought process might be to see a woman who lives on her own and claims public money rather than working. We might tut and ponder what kind of feckless woman she must be, presumably a single mother with multiple children by multiple different fathers who figured public money is a nice easy gravy train that beats working. But the reality might be that she'd dearly love to work and did once work until an injury prevented her from working any more, and she actually retired early on the grounds of ill health. As soon as we start making assumptions and judging people based on those assumptions, the chances are pretty good we fell foul of the part that says we'll be judged by the same standard.

I agree about making assumptions about people. That was done to me recently and the person was so out of touch with what really is happening in my life. It didn't matter to her when I told her my circumstances; she just wanted to be right and condemn. It hurt but I am not suffering anymore from it since I realized she is not right in her thinking.

 

[Andrew]

I always heard "hate the sin not the sinner"... maybe I overlooked it so im asking, is that from scripture? If so can someone please point it out for me?

 

[Arsenios]

Luk_6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:
condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:
forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Christ's words...

Others also wrote:

1 - Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come,
2 - If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
3 - For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
4 - Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled:
but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.


If you want to judge, judge yourself alone, for it is God's Will that you do so...
We are NOT to judge others...
Not even adulterers and whoremongers - God will judge...

The Orthodox, in their quest for God, look to feel only compassion and love for all sinners, including killers and rapists and mass-murderers... We weep for them, knowing them to be God's creation in His Image... And knowing the terrible judgement coming upon them through their actions... We feel anguish for their souls, and pray for them, even as they are killing us and those dear to us... And in this, we overcome the world, and love God's Creation, the fallen and the sinners... I especially loved #2 above...

Christianity in the US these days is often seen as a bunch of judgemental finger-pointing hypocrites... That is how I saw it in my pre-Christian days... And I despised Christianity for that reason...

Yet we are not called to judge the world, but to overcome the world in Christ, Who Himself overcame the world...

God IS Love, and as we mature in the Faith of Christ, we become the Love of God to our fellow denizens of the world...

And this is done in tribulations and persecutions...

Co-suffering with Christ IN Christ for the sake of His Body...

For the Joy God gives is not of this world...

Joh16:33
These things I have spoken unto you,
that in Me ye might have peace.
In the world ye shall have tribulation:
but be of good cheer;
I have overcome the world.

Judging sinners is not what Christ came for...
Nor should we who are following Him...
Calling sinners to repentance is the key...


Arsenios

 

[Andrew]

Luk_6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged:
condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:
forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Christ's words...

Others also wrote:

1 - Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come,
2 - If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
3 - For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
4 - Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled:
but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.


If you want to judge, judge yourself alone, for it is God's Will that you do so...
We are NOT to judge others...
Not even adulterers and whoremongers - God will judge...

The Orthodox, in their quest for God, look to feel only compassion and love for all sinners, including killers and rapists and mass-murderers... We weep for them, knowing them to be God's creation in His Image... And knowing the terrible judgement coming upon them through their actions... We feel anguish for their souls, and pray for them, even as they are killing us and those dear to us... And in this, we overcome the world, and love God's Creation, the fallen and the sinners... I especially loved #2 above...

Christianity in the US these days is often seen as a bunch of judgemental finger-pointing hypocrites... That is how I saw it in my pre-Christian days... And I despised Christianity for that reason...

Yet we are not called to judge the world, but to overcome the world in Christ, Who Himself overcame the world...

God IS Love, and as we mature in the Faith of Christ, we become the Love of God to our fellow denizens of the world...

And this is done in tribulations and persecutions...

Co-suffering with Christ IN Christ for the sake of His Body...

For the Joy God gives is not of this world...

Joh16:33
These things I have spoken unto you,
that in Me ye might have peace.
In the world ye shall have tribulation:
but be of good cheer;
I have overcome the world.

Judging sinners is not what Christ came for...
Nor should we who are following Him...
Calling sinners to repentance is the key...


Arsenios

Beautifully addressed!