JOSIAH

[Faith]

I’m going through my typical worrying about religion again, in particular, the LCMS teaching of a young earth. Since you were at the convention that they decided to uphold a young earth teaching, did they make an educated decision? Did they do their research on SCIENCE, or did they just decide on this based on what they’ve always believed, according to their faith?

In other words, was their decision completely based on their religion, science or a combination of the two?

@Josiah

 

[Faith]

Sorry, I misspelled your name; I fixed it.

 

[Josiah]

I’m going through my typical worrying about religion again, in particular, the LCMS teaching of a young earth. Since you were at the convention that they decided to uphold a young earth teaching, did they make an educated decision? Did they do their research on SCIENCE, or did they just decide on this based on what they’ve always believed, according to their faith?

In other words, was their decision completely based on their religion, science or a combination of the two?

I only vaguely remember that resolution..... and I recall voting against it.

It IS clear that the majority of the LCMS holds to the "young earth" view. There is, however, no requirement that all members (or even clergy) of the LCMS agree with that.

I think most hold to that view because they tend to take a quite literal (and in this case, science) "take" on Scripture unless the context itself suggests otherwise. Frankly, I kind of respect that and think that much better than the ELCA's view that Scripture is full of lies, myths and mistakes.

I've already shared MY view on this.... that it's unsound to impose OUR worldview and science presumptions on Scrpture, which I believe is be understood and embraced as Law and Gospel, not Biology and Geology. BUT, as I've noted before, I accept there are real issues here. For example, note the emphasis in the Bible on Sunday as a Day of Rest.... and the emphasis (especially by Paul) on Adam and the Fall which to ME are most likely seen as real people and a real event, IMO it does take some creative thinking to skirt around this (and some other things). I think that all "sides" here have some problems.

But again, as noted earlier, as one with a Ph.D. in physics, none of this bothers me. Not a bit. I'm okay with mystery, okay with not knowing how everything fits. And (perhaps wrongly) I see my faith and my science has two different things that I do not force to agree. In my view, science is a very HUMAN activity to UNDERSTAND how OUR universe works (or as my sister puts it, "the HOW of God's providence" .... she has a Ph..D. in biology). We humans like to think we are as smart as God (well, smarter) but I don't agree with that. And as some in science easily admit, "What is held today will be rejected tomorrow." In any case, my FAITH is about my/our relationship to God and the SUPERnatural. My science is about attempting to understand the physcal universe. They are different. I don't impose either upon either.

Let me share an exemple my sister raised many years ago when we were both undergrads... the Bible talks about the SOUL. That we have a SOUL and this "leaves" us at death. Yup. We both held to that view. Well, for many years, there were BIOLOGISTS trying to locate the soul in the body... even to weigh a body the monent before death and after to see how much weight the soul has. I hope you agree this is just silly. We agree we have a soul.... biology need not locate it or define it's biological properties for this to be true.... I won't force biology books to include "soul" in the list of body parts or denouce the Bible for saying such exists. I just conclude that the Bible and biology differ here. Follow?


But again, as I recall, that resolution said nothing about clergy or laity needing to believe anything in this regard. I voted against it ONLY because this is a subject about which the Confessions are silent and I think it best that the church also be silent. Most disagreed with me....but nothing was done that required I do or believe anything. It MIGHT be used against a biology prof at one of our LCMS colleges but that's about it.;.. they might be required to state at points in the class "the LCMS in Convention disagree with this." But I'm not even sure of that. If you hold to an "old earth" I doubt you will be excommunicated. You MAY be asked by your pastor to not teach your view in a Sunday School class.


- Josiah



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[Faith]

I only vaguely remember that resolution..... and I recall voting against it.

It IS clear that the majority of the LCMS holds to the "young earth" view. There is, however, no requirement that all members (or even clergy) of the LCMS agree with that.

I think most hold to that view because they tend to take a quite literal (and in this case, science) "take" on Scripture unless the context itself suggests otherwise. Frankly, I kind of respect that and think that much better than the ELCA's view that Scripture is full of lies, myths and mistakes.

I've already shared MY view on this.... that it's unsound to impose OUR worldview and science presumptions on Scrpture, which I believe is be understood and embraced as Law and Gospel, not Biology and Geology. BUT, as I've noted before, I accept there are real issues here. For example, note the emphasis in the Bible on Sunday as a Day of Rest.... and the emphasis (especially by Paul) on Adam and the Fall which to ME are most likely seen as real people and a real event, IMO it does take some creative thinking to skirt around this (and some other things). I think that all "sides" here have some problems.

But again, as noted earlier, as one with a Ph.D. in physics, none of this bothers me. Not a bit. I'm okay with mystery, okay with not knowing how everything fits. And (perhaps wrongly) I see my faith and my science has two different things that I do not force to agree. In my view, science is a very HUMAN activity to UNDERSTAND how OUR universe works (or as my sister puts it, "the HOW of God's providence" .... she has a Ph..D. in biology). We humans like to think we are as smart as God (well, smarter) but I don't agree with that. And as some in science easily admit, "What is held today will be rejected tomorrow." In any case, my FAITH is about my/our relationship to God and the SUPERnatural. My science is about attempting to understand the physcal universe. They are different. I don't impose either upon either.

Let me share an exemple my sister raised many years ago when we were both undergrads... the Bible talks about the SOUL. That we have a SOUL and this "leaves" us at death. Yup. We both held to that view. Well, for many years, there were BIOLOGISTS trying to locate the soul in the body... even to weigh a body the monent before death and after to see how much weight the soul has. I hope you agree this is just silly. We agree we have a soul.... biology need not locate it or define it's biological properties for this to be true.... I won't force biology books to include "soul" in the list of body parts or denouce the Bible for saying such exists. I just conclude that the Bible and biology differ here. Follow?


But again, as I recall, that resolution said nothing about clergy or laity needing to believe anything in this regard. I voted against it ONLY because this is a subject about which the Confessions are silent and I think it best that the church also be silent. Most disagreed with me....but nothing was done that required I do or believe anything. It MIGHT be used against a biology prof at one of our LCMS colleges but that's about it.;.. they might be required to state at points in the class "the LCMS in Convention disagree with this." But I'm not even sure of that. If you hold to an "old earth" I doubt you will be excommunicated. You MAY be asked by your pastor to not teach your view in a Sunday School class.


- Josiah



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Thanks for your reply, but besides you, were those voting educated in science, just religion or both? IOW, how educated were the voters in subjects outside of religion?

 

[Faith]

Thanks for your reply, but besides you, were those voting educated in science, just religion or both? IOW, how educated were the voters in subjects outside of religion?

I just sometimes think it would be easier on me to just return to the Catholic Church. They’re strict on some things but science isn’t one of them.

 

[Josiah]

I just sometimes think it would be easier on me to just return to the Catholic Church. They’re strict on some things but science isn’t one of them.

Well, you need to compare the Lutheran Small Catechism with the Catholic Catechism. Which one do you most agree with?


.

 

[Faith]

Well, you need to compare the Lutheran Small Catechism with the Catholic Catechism. Which one do you most agree with?


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I don’t know…the Catholic one is HUGE.

but about the men who voted on teaching a young earth at the convention….were they educated just in religion?
just educated in science?
educated in both?

 

[Josiah]

I don’t know…the Catholic one is HUGE.

but about the men who voted on teaching a young earth at the convention….were they educated just in religion?
just educated in science?
educated in both?

Friend,

Convention resolutions are NOT doctrine.
I don't think the LCMS is requiring anything from you.
I gave some reasons for why I think the majority of delegates voted as they did (ignorance is not a reason).

If you want to know the doctrine of the LCMS, the best and first place to go is Luther's Small Catechism. When you were Confirmed and when you joined your congregation, you were asked if you agree with IT, not every resolution of every convention of the LCMS and its districts. And if you want to compare with the RCC, then compare the Lutheran and Catholic Catechisms because in BOTH churches, that's what you are asked to agree with (and yes, the fact that the RCC one is much bigger is telling).

Blessings...

Josiah



.

 

[Faith]

Friend,

Convention resolutions are NOT doctrine.
I don't think the LCMS is requiring anything from you.
I gave some reasons for why I think the majority of delegates voted as they did (ignorance is not a reason).

If you want to know the doctrine of the LCMS, the best and first place to go is Luther's Small Catechism. When you were Confirmed and when you joined your congregation, you were asked if you agree with IT, not every resolution of every convention of the LCMS and its districts. And if you want to compare with the RCC, then compare the Lutheran and Catholic Catechisms because in BOTH churches, that's what you are asked to agree with (and yes, the fact that the RCC one is much bigger is telling).

Blessings...

Josiah



.

Tells you what? That they have many more rules to follow?

 

[Faith]

Friend,

Convention resolutions are NOT doctrine.
I don't think the LCMS is requiring anything from you.
I gave some reasons for why I think the majority of delegates voted as they did (ignorance is not a reason).

If you want to know the doctrine of the LCMS, the best and first place to go is Luther's Small Catechism. When you were Confirmed and when you joined your congregation, you were asked if you agree with IT, not every resolution of every convention of the LCMS and its districts. And if you want to compare with the RCC, then compare the Lutheran and Catholic Catechisms because in BOTH churches, that's what you are asked to agree with (and yes, the fact that the RCC one is much bigger is telling).

Blessings...

Josiah



.

So, are you saying that the young earth belief in the LCMS isn’t doctrine? Or is it? Because the LCMS Q and A thing online says that the LCMS “does not have an official position on the precise age of the earth since the Bible itself does not tell us how old the earth is.”

 

[Joshua1Eight]

The Earth is young. Only about 6,000 years old. There is ample scientific evidence placing limiting factors on the age of the Earth and the universe.

Such as:
Saturn’s rings.
The distance of the moon
The spin of the Earth
The size of the Sun.
The spiral arms of galaxies
The number of supernovas
The salinity if the oceans

The Earth cannot be millions or billions of years old as claimed by evolutionists.

 

[Faith]

Friend,

Convention resolutions are NOT doctrine.
I don't think the LCMS is requiring anything from you.
I gave some reasons for why I think the majority of delegates voted as they did (ignorance is not a reason).

If you want to know the doctrine of the LCMS, the best and first place to go is Luther's Small Catechism. When you were Confirmed and when you joined your congregation, you were asked if you agree with IT, not every resolution of every convention of the LCMS and its districts. And if you want to compare with the RCC, then compare the Lutheran and Catholic Catechisms because in BOTH churches, that's what you are asked to agree with (and yes, the fact that the RCC one is much bigger is telling).

Blessings...

Josiah



.

When I was confirmed I was a Catholic.

 

[Faith]

The Earth is young. Only about 6,000 years old. There is ample scientific evidence placing limiting factors on the age of the Earth and the universe.

Such as:
Saturn’s rings.
The distance of the moon
The spin of the Earth
The size of the Sun.
The spiral arms of galaxies
The number of supernovas
The salinity if the oceans

The Earth cannot be millions or billions of years old as claimed by evolutionists.

Don’t you think that those who believe in an old earth have plenty of reasons for believing that, too?

 

[Josiah]

So, are you saying that the young earth belief in the LCMS isn’t doctrine?

You are noting a convention resolution. Convention resolutions are not doctrine and rarely binding on anything or anyone.

The LCMS in convention has taken positions on zillions of things... but our doctrine is found in the Book of Concord. And YOU are to embrace the Small Catechism (NOT including any explanation of such). When you were Confirmed, you were asked if you accept the teachings of Luther's Small Catechism - not all the thousands of convention resolutions of the LCMS. A PASTOR is asked if he accepts the Book of Concord but even he is not asked to accept all the convention resolutions.

As I stated, I see no reason for you to believe you will be excommunicated if you think the Earth is older than 6000 years. Now, it's POSSIBLE that your parish may not want you to teach CONTRARY to that as a Sunday School teacher but that's about as far as this goes.

And as I stated, I can understand WHY the majority of delegates held to the position they did. I think it would be better to be silent here but that's not how the vote went. The Earth still revolves... Jesus is still the Savior.... you can still receive the Eucharist... all is okay.


Blessings...


Allen




.

 

[Faith]

You are noting a convention resolution. Convention resolutions are not doctrine and rarely binding on anything or anyone.

The LCMS in convention has taken positions on zillions of things... but our doctrine is found in the Book of Concord. And YOU are to embrace the Small Catechism (NOT including any explanation of such). When you were Confirmed, you were asked if you accept the teachings of Luther's Small Catechism - not all the thousands of convention resolutions of the LCMS. A PASTOR is asked if he accepts the Book of Concord but even he is not asked to accept all the convention resolutions.

As I stated, I see no reason for you to believe you will be excommunicated if you think the Earth is older than 6000 years. Now, it's POSSIBLE that your parish may not want you to teach CONTRARY to that as a Sunday School teacher but that's about as far as this goes.

And as I stated, I can understand WHY the majority of delegates held to the position they did. I think it would be better to be silent here but that's not how the vote went. The Earth still revolves... Jesus is still the Savior.... you can still receive the Eucharist... all is okay.


Blessings...


Allen




.

I wasn’t confirmed as a Lutheran.

 

[Josiah]

I wasn’t confirmed as a Lutheran.

You were speaking of LUTHERAN. I'm making a point of what is mandated in Lutheranism (specifically the LCMS) because you specifically asked me about such in the LCMS.

 

[Faith]

You are noting a convention resolution. Convention resolutions are not doctrine and rarely binding on anything or anyone.

The LCMS in convention has taken positions on zillions of things... but our doctrine is found in the Book of Concord. And YOU are to embrace the Small Catechism (NOT including any explanation of such). When you were Confirmed, you were asked if you accept the teachings of Luther's Small Catechism - not all the thousands of convention resolutions of the LCMS. A PASTOR is asked if he accepts the Book of Concord but even he is not asked to accept all the convention resolutions.

As I stated, I see no reason for you to believe you will be excommunicated if you think the Earth is older than 6000 years. Now, it's POSSIBLE that your parish may not want you to teach CONTRARY to that as a Sunday School teacher but that's about as far as this goes.

And as I stated, I can understand WHY the majority of delegates held to the position they did. I think it would be better to be silent here but that's not how the vote went. The Earth still revolves... Jesus is still the Savior.... you can still receive the Eucharist... all is okay.


Blessings...


Allen




.

If

You are noting a convention resolution. Convention resolutions are not doctrine and rarely binding on anything or anyone.

The LCMS in convention has taken positions on zillions of things... but our doctrine is found in the Book of Concord. And YOU are to embrace the Small Catechism (NOT including any explanation of such). When you were Confirmed, you were asked if you accept the teachings of Luther's Small Catechism - not all the thousands of convention resolutions of the LCMS. A PASTOR is asked if he accepts the Book of Concord but even he is not asked to accept all the convention resolutions.

As I stated, I see no reason for you to believe you will be excommunicated if you think the Earth is older than 6000 years. Now, it's POSSIBLE that your parish may not want you to teach CONTRARY to that as a Sunday School teacher but that's about as far as this goes.

And as I stated, I can understand WHY the majority of delegates held to the position they did. I think it would be better to be silent here but that's not how the vote went. The Earth still revolves... Jesus is still the Savior.... you can still receive the Eucharist... all is okay.


Blessings...


Allen




.

If a PASTOR and WE aren’t required to believe convention resolutions but only the Book of Concord and Small Catechism (I don’t think I’ve ever been asked if I believe them) then what’s the point of the conference and teaching, for that matter?

in order to join my church I had to take a I think it was a 10 week class called The Rooted Experience. After that, there was a dinner and little ceremony where we were introduced. I don’t think we had to agree to anything, but I’m not sure about that.

 

[Faith]

You were speaking of LUTHERAN. I'm making a point of what is mandated in Lutheranism (specifically the LCMS) because you specifically asked me about such in the LCMS.

Yes, but I never had a Lutheran confirmation. Was I supposed to?

 

[Josiah]

If a PASTOR and WE aren’t required to believe convention resolutions but only the Book of Concord and Small Catechism (I don’t think I’ve ever been asked if I believe them) then what’s the point of the conference And teaching, for that matter?

The SYNOD is giving a POSITION.

Read the resolution. Does it mandate that anyone do anything about this? Does it declare this to be binding dogma?

in order to join my church I had to take a I think it was a 10 week class called The Rooted Experience. After that, there was a dinner and little ceremony where we were introduced. I don’t think we had to agree to anything, but I’m not sure about that.

In the Catholic Church, there is First Communion and Confirmation (or RCIA).. and you are asked to accept the teachings of the CATECHISM.

In the LCMS, it's up to the individual congregation how to prepare children and adults for Confirmation/Church Membership. But what you describe is common; in my parish there is a 12 week class that went through the Catechism. Then at Confirmation, there was the Rite of Confirmation at a Sunday service and we were asked if we accepted the teachings of Luther's Small Catechism as we understand it. I said yes.


Again, there have been countless convention resolutions of the LCMS.... a tiny percent have had anything to do with our beliefs but when they do, typically they are to express the conventions POSITION on something, NOT to add or modify doctrine or to mandate clergy or laity to believe or do something or to mandate that those who don't abide get excommunicated. I'll give you the strongest example I know of. Perhaps on NO ISSUE has the LCMS in Convention been more bold, more clear, more often than on abortion. There have been COUNTLESS Convention resolutions condemning abortion in every which way and in every direction - applauding pro-life organizations, condemning roe v wade, etc., etc. There's probably no position in over 150 years where the Synod in Convention has been bolder or clearer. But can a lay church member be pro=choice? Yup. Will any be excommunicated if they are pro-choice? Nope. Will a PASTOR be defrocked if they are pro-choice? Nope. Convention resolutions are not doctrine. Our doctrine is the Lutheran Confessions, not convention resolutions.

Friend, I voted AGAINST that resolution. Was I even approached by anyone? Nope. Did ANYONE even comment about my vote? Nope. Did the LCMS excommunicate me? Nope. Did anyone even over beers at the bar seem concerned about my vote? Nope.



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.

 

[Faith]

The SYNOD is giving a POSITION.

Read the resolution. Does it mandate that anyone do anything about this? Does it declare this to be binding dogma?




In the Catholic Church, there is First Communion and Confirmation (or RCIA).. and you are asked to accept the teachings of the CATECHISM.

In the LCMS, it's up to the individual congregation how to prepare children and adults for Confirmation/Church Membership. But what you describe is common; in my parish there is a 12 week class that went through the Catechism. Then at Confirmation, there was the Rite of Confirmation at a Sunday service and we were asked if we accepted the teachings of Luther's Small Catechism as we understand it. I said yes.


Again, there have been countless convention resolutions of the LCMS.... a tiny percent have had anything to do with our beliefs but when they do, typically they are to express the conventions POSITION on something, NOT to add or modify doctrine or to mandate clergy or laity to believe or do something or to mandate that those who don't abide get excommunicated. I'll give you the strongest example I know of. Perhaps on NO ISSUE has the LCMS in Convention been more bold, more clear, more often than on abortion. There have been COUNTLESS Convention resolutions condemning abortion in every which way and in every direction - applauding pro-life organizations, condemning roe v wade, etc., etc. There's probably no position in over 150 years where the Synod in Convention has been bolder or clearer. But can a lay church member be pro=choice? Yup. Will any be excommunicated if they are pro-choice? Nope. Will a PASTOR be defrocked if they are pro-choice? Nope. Convention resolutions are not doctrine. Our doctrine is the Lutheran Confessions, not convention resolutions.

Friend, I voted AGAINST that resolution. Was I even approached by anyone? Nope. Did ANYONE even comment about my vote? Nope. Did the LCMS excommunicate me? Nope. Did anyone even over beers at the bar seem concerned about my vote? Nope.



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I don’t have the Book of Concord, just Luther’s Small Catechism with Explanation. I don’t see anything about the age of the earth.