John's water baptism fulfilled by Christ?

[Andrew]

It appears that John's campaign and compulsion to baptise Jews by water for the sole purpose of preparing the way of the king through repentance -was a very brief yet a most divine appointment in time, directed forth from Heaven and not of tradition of men... John knew that the Messiah was coming and thus the Jews were more than eager to be baptised into John's water baptism for remission of sin through repentance before the Lord. Even the Jewish priests who questioned Jesus were asked by Jesus concerning John's baptism and where it came from (Tradition or Divine?) -they obviously did not deny it's importance... it must have been a HUGE deal for all Jews (especially for the priests who already received a water baptism by other priests in order to officially become a priest/rabbi, which is also what Jesus had to do)
Jesus had no sins to repent of (he repented Our repentance into John's baptism) John knew that he came to fulfill and he recognized Jesus as soon as he saw him.
John even says "you should be baptizing me" but Jesus insisted that He be baptised by John.. Jesus had to do this in order to become a priest and when he arose the Holy Spirit came unto him and God spoke from heaven.. The sinless man who instead of needing to repent -took our repentance into HIS baptism.
Apparently those who had participated in John's baptism did not receive the Holy Spirit at John's baptism, they believed in what John proclaimed about the Lords arrival and repentance but were unaware of the Holy Spirit gift because God had not yet sent a servant to bless those particular men by His workmanship (Which is why Paul asks them -regardless of "evidence" of the Holy Spirit.. -if they had received it for he knew not either way)..
He then baptised them in the name of Jesus and they received the Holy Spirit.. This is not Paul's baptism, this is Jesus baptism not of men, not by men, but by the Lord in Heaven who ordained it.
So now that John is long gone, how could we be baptised into his baptism if not by him (John)? John did those baptisms personally, he did not tell those whom he baptised to baptise others in his name for repentance.
Jesus did not say "be baptised all of you by John into his baptism", instead Jesus says "in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit".. Is the Holy Spirit made of water?
When you repent do you need water to do so?
If you repent without water can you be baptised in Christ without water?
Did the thief on the cross who repented use water?

Christ rose out of John's water baptism with Approval from God and with the Holy Spirit, Saul went blind and was guided by hands to meet a disciple whom God instructed and Saul received THE only baptism and was given sight once he rose from the Holy baptism in Christ Name.. "Recovery of site to the blind"

So you see, a God fearing repented sinner does not need water to repent nor needs water to receive the Holy Spirit baptism, nothing against those who do, but no where do the apostles state that before baptism of Christ you must receive John's baptism, we are all part of Jesus baptism at the Jordan river for the forgiveness of sin and it's the ONLY baptism, Jesus fulfills his forerunners water baptism through the Holy Spirit of God

 

[Lamb]

John's baptism paved the way for the one true baptism instituted and authorized by Jesus, which invokes the trinity. It is a means that God uses (not the only means to bring faith since it's by His Word) to make disciples.

Did Jesus need mud to make a blind man see?

 

[Albion]

So you see, a God fearing repented sinner does not need water to repent nor needs water to receive the Holy Spirit baptism, nothing against those who do, but no where do the apostles state that before baptism of Christ you must receive John's baptism, we are all part of Jesus baptism at the Jordan river for the forgiveness of sin and it's the ONLY baptism, Jesus fulfills his forerunners water baptism through the Holy Spirit of God

It is impossible to take the testimony of the New Testament seriously AND hold that sacramental, water baptism is optional for a convert to Christ. However, that doesn't apply to what is called the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" which is an entirely different matter. It's important not to confuse the two.

 

[Andrew]

John's baptism paved the way for the one true baptism instituted and authorized by Jesus, which invokes the trinity. It is a means that God uses (not the only means to bring faith since it's by His Word) to make disciples.

Did Jesus need mud to make a blind man see?

I agree, God orchestrated 2 people to meet, one being a persecutor and the other being a disciple, one in complete darkness praying for deliverance and the other being called forth to do God's will, two complete strangers.. and the disciple under Gods authority and blessing baptises the man and the man receives site and the Holy Spirit.. The mans intense and divine intervention that blinded him had recovered him to also do Gods will and so on..

What a great 180 for one who was dead set on attacking Christian faith and to suddenly be fearful of the Lord out of the blue and become Gods vessel to witness and testify to Gentiles as a former Jew (Saul).. I can relate deeply to this as a former radical atheist to a persistent witness to The Lord.
In my experience my infant baptism did nothing for me at all and I definitely didn't repent nor believe until much later when I was in a dark place and cried out for help.. i felt like my prayers were pending so I prayed for God to send saints my way and sure enough they came and I was baptised, receiving sight and strength and testimony to witness.
God orchestrates all baptisms, we "baptise" God's chosen people every time one is added to His Church, we are His disciples and vessels.. The submerging in water for me later on (again) was just something my church kept pushing on me so I did it, I got a good feeling from it but not as great as when my prayers were answered upon meeting the saints God had sent for me.

Paul's baptism was not pressured on by men, it was by God alone, and the baptism of John was not pressured by men but by God alone, the thief on the cross was not pressured by men to fear the Lord and repent but by God, he never got to become a disciple for in the hour of his death God secured him and granted him paradise.

One Holy Spirit baptism into Christ ordained of the Father and by means of his sovereign orchestration of his workmanship to disciple, heal and raise the dead unto Himself is really all it takes..
I never understood why only a very very few (1 or 2 per church) are allowed to "baptise" when we are all encouraged to baptise :/
I don't think it means ever disciple should tote around a bucket of water either.. we baptise each other through discipling (converts are discipled to), and we are baptised into His burial unto His resurrection and newness of life.. So why is the focus so much on John's river baptism? What good did John's baptism do for the gentiles who had no reason to involve themselves with Jewish beliefs?

 

[Lamb]

In my experience my infant baptism did nothing for me at all and I definitely didn't repent nor believe until much later when I was in a dark place and cried out for help.. i felt like my prayers were pending so I prayed for God to send saints my way and sure enough they came and I was baptised, receiving sight and strength and testimony to witness.

So in your "experience" you think that God didn't do something to you in baptism because you were lost later on in life? How do you not know if you were a faithful child of God as an infant/toddler? Do you not think a seed was planted and ready to grow? Plants need not only water but food to thrive on. Your second baptism was worthless. God did it right the first time.

I never understood why only a very very few (1 or 2 per church) are allowed to "baptise" when we are all encouraged to baptise :/
?

God is a God of order. He specifically "calls" a pastor to a church to preach the Word and carry out the sacraments. You don't just have any old guy run up to the pulpit on Sunday because he thinks he hears the Holy Spirit even though he never received a call through the congregation?

In an emergency, anyone CAN baptize. It's just that when you have a pastor baptize in a church, he makes sure that if it's an infant that the parents promise to teach the child about the Savior because teaching and baptism go hand in hand. If it's an adult, the pastor instructs the adult first on what baptism is about.

 

[Andrew]

So in your "experience" you think that God didn't do something to you in baptism because you were lost later on in life? How do you not know if you were a faithful child of God as an infant/toddler? Do you not think a seed was planted and ready to grow? Plants need not only water but food to thrive on. Your second baptism was worthless. God did it right the first time.



God is a God of order. He specifically "calls" a pastor to a church to preach the Word and carry out the sacraments. You don't just have any old guy run up to the pulpit on Sunday because he thinks he hears the Holy Spirit even though he never received a call through the congregation?

In an emergency, anyone CAN baptize. It's just that when you have a pastor baptize in a church, he makes sure that if it's an infant that the parents promise to teach the child about the Savior because teaching and baptism go hand in hand. If it's an adult, the pastor instructs the adult first on what baptism is about.

Well like most children I disobeyed my parents and I did some pretty bad things, many baptised infants grow up to be cold blooded non repenting murderers and some non baptised atheist grow up to accept Christ by Gods grace and by hearing the Gospel discipled to them.
Since my second baptism was indeed pointless, what's to say for those who's infant baptism was pointless for they lived and died without repentance? Was the baptism a complete success or was the pastor misled by God because the infant never accepted Christ nor ever considered repentance?
Only God knows but I do believe the baptised child should be discipled to every step of the way by their mother and father..
Traditional sacraments or not God will leave non of his children behind, He has complete control over our circumstances.
The thief was on his "death bed" when he repented and that was good enough for God, not that I encourage a soul to wait that long to repent but just that water is not always handy and our repentance is one with baptism into Christ burial and ever lasting life, baptism comes from hearing the Gospel through Gods disciples thus we "baptise one another" everytime a soul is added to the Church.
You know sometimes there may be a drought and water scarce, today we have running pipelines but if you were in a desert or no where near water, what's to stop you from getting baptised?

 

[Lamb]

Well like most children I disobeyed my parents and I did some pretty bad things, many baptised infants grow up to be cold blooded non repenting murderers and some non baptised atheist grow up to accept Christ by Gods grace and by hearing the Gospel discipled to them.
Since my second baptism was indeed pointless, what's to say for those who's infant baptism was pointless for they lived and died without repentance? Was the baptism a complete success or was the pastor misled by God because the infant never accepted Christ nor ever considered repentance?
Only God knows but I do believe the baptised child should be discipled to every step of the way by their mother and father..
Traditional sacraments or not God will leave non of his children behind, He has complete control over our circumstances.
The thief was on his "death bed" when he repented and that was good enough for God, not that I encourage a soul to wait that long to repent but just that water is not always handy and our repentance is one with baptism into Christ burial and ever lasting life, baptism comes from hearing the Gospel through Gods disciples thus we "baptise one another" everytime a soul is added to the Church.
You know sometimes there may be a drought and water scarce, today we have running pipelines but if you were in a desert or no where near water, what's to stop you from getting baptised?

Why do infants who have been given faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit in their baptism fall away??? Well, why do grown men turn from God???? You can't blame God! Just like you can't praise man when God returns them to the fold by grace through faith.

 

[Albion]

Well like most children I disobeyed my parents and I did some pretty bad things, many baptised infants grow up to be cold blooded non repenting murderers and some non baptised atheist grow up to accept Christ by Gods grace and by hearing the Gospel discipled to them.
Since my second baptism was indeed pointless, what's to say for those who's infant baptism was pointless....

Hold it. No one has yet shown that baptism is pointless. You are simply repeating a line that is a favorite of people who oppose the baptizing of children.

 

[Josiah]

A LOT of people learn the Gospel and never believe.... does that make proclaiming the Gospel pointless, wrong?

A LOT of people who once had faith no longer do.... does that make ministry pointless, wrong?

Some people are loved... and end up hating, does that make love pointless, wrong?

Some people live very healthy lives... and die anyway, does that make healthy living pointless, wrong?

 

[Josiah]

So you see, a God fearing repented sinner does not need water to repent nor needs water to receive the Holy Spirit baptism, nothing against those who do, but no where do the apostles state that before baptism of Christ you must receive John's baptism, we are all part of Jesus baptism at the Jordan river for the forgiveness of sin and it's the ONLY baptism, Jesus fulfills his forerunners water baptism through the Holy Spirit of God

Some responses, if I may...


1. I'd be careful to tell God what limits are placed on Him. I don't recall anyone (ever) saying that God MUST use water baptism to accomplish His will. I think of John the Baptist who was given faith before He was ever born. I think of the believing thief who believed without being baptized or ever saying "The Sinner's Prayer." If God wants to give His Holy Spirit, spiritual life and saving faith (Justification) to a 5 year old blind, deaf girl living all my herself on an island, I'm pretty sure He can. GOD may not need any to preach or love or baptize or teach (because God is God and can do pretty much what He wants), nonetheless, that doesn't imply that therefore I should not preach or love or baptize or teach. IMO, perhaps there are two related errors: We should do refrain because it doesn't ALWAYS seem to have the result we want and we should refrain because God doesn't technically need us to do it.


2. I know of only one baptism. The Bible says there is "ONE" baptism (not two). So IMO we likely have 3 options: !) There is no water baptism - only a waterless, "Baptism of the Holy Spriit." 2) There is no "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" just water baptism 3) Water baptism and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are the same thing. Is there another option?


3. As I understand it (and I ain't saying that's saying much), there were 3 JEWISH Baptisms. 1) A Cleansing of hands and vessels and items that symbolically make them "holy" in the sense of set aside for spiritual purposes. 2) A baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins - done often, individually, typically by immersion, that symbolized repentance (drowning) and forgiveness (rising); this is what John the Baptist was doing. 3) A baptism of adoption - Gentiles converted to Judaism and were reborn into the Covenant. Typically whole families were baptized together, given Jewish names, and were at least partly considered to be Jews. None of these gave the Holy Spirit and none of them actually brought forgiveness (although the second symbolized that). Christian baptism has something in common with all 3 of these - but Jesus adds functionality, so that they DO something, or at least that's the implication of Scripture and the universal belief of all Christians for over 1500 years. I think there's a misconception that arises when we read the word "wash" (Baptizo) and think it's Christ's CHRISTIAN gift - even if it comes before the New Covenant, before Good Friday, Easter, Pentecost.



We have several threads on water Baptism here at CH. MANY Scriptures have been shared that indicate the effectualness of Baptism and to date none that show that it doesn't exist or doesn't do anything.
Here is a really good thread precisely on this issue: https://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?7989-Is-Baptism-Just-an-Inert-Outward-Symbol




Thank you!


- Josiah




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