Jesus will save you if you.... ???

[Edward429451]

Exactly, the new adam created in us will do good works because our neighbors need them, not to have any personal gain from it.

I found this...

2 Corinthians 8:9-15
9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.

11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:

14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:

15 As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.../KJV

What do Lutherans do with these verses to reconcile them? It doesn't say that Jesus does it through us. That there is an equality of equipped to do such things from the Lord, and with you (us). He is our supply for every good work, but we walk it out and go the actions of getting it done.

Or could that be what you meant when you said Jesus does it through us?

 

[Frankj]

Sinners sin. I suspect in most church settings the statistical norms for the kinds of concerns you list are on par with secular society. Seeking an exclusive church is possible, but I find that effort a bit myopic or misdirected. We again probably make these things part of our evaluation process even if only on a subconscious level. I do however believe that most of us are conscious of it.

Avoiding teaching of sin to avoid offending the sinners is a growing trend in many Churches today.

Only preach about positive and wonderful things that make you feel; good and avoid the nature and consequences of sin, the need for repentance and reform of a sinful lifestyle, the sort of thing with nothing mentioned that might not make you feel bad about living a lifestyle outside of God's rules for us.

I read at last one article, unfortunately forgot where so I can't point to it, where a preacher was starting to question whether or not salvation should be taught because it might drive some members and potential members away if it is.

But, from what we know about Jesus in the Bible, how would he view this?

 

[Edward429451]

2nd Corinthians 8:1-5
1 Moreover, brethren, we do you to wit of the grace of God bestowed on the churches of Macedonia;

2 How that in a great trial of affliction the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded unto the riches of their liberality.

3 For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves;

4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God..../KJV

Now this is talking about helping people. I think it's talking about money, but what if the old lady across the street doesn't need her grass mowed, but rising prices have made it not possible for her to pay her electric bill, she's short this month...Same thing. But that is interesting, it says before they did for the others, the first gave themselves to God.

I think there is a group of Christians who don't do works for God by helping people out. Well, ponder this...

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service..../KJV

So to give yourself to the Lord first, and then doing good works is the best way (only way) and it is our reasonable service like it says. Did you not give your life to God and call Jesus your Lord? Of course you did! So now you have taken on a reasonable service unto the Lord, unless you want to be an un-profitable servant?

What good is working for people or giving them money anyway?

Revelation 19:6-8
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.../KJV

In verse 8 the righteousness of the saints translates from, essentially, the good deeds of the saints. How much did we help people. According to this, the Bride doing good works is how she prepares herself. Every good deed is another thread of her garment. (Or a removal of a stain?) She is clean and white, with no stains or blemishes on her garments! Be ye Holy, even as He is Holy.

If I was Lutheran, I'd be thinking hard on these things.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Exactly, the new adam created in us will do good works because our neighbors need them, not to have any personal gain from it.

If the new Adam in us almost automatically does good works without our need to persevere in our grateful lives, why do you think the New Testament letter writers command their fellow Christians to live lives pleasing to God (for example, Colossians 3 and 4, Ephesians 4-6, Romans 12-16, Hebrews 12 and 13), @Lamb? There is the ALREADY/NOT YET aspect of the gospel. We are already perfect in principle in the Father's sight because of Jesus' death but not yet perfect in practice, in which we need to cooperate through Jesus' resurrection power (Colossians 31-10):

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

 

[Lamb]

There's a lot of replies to catch up on...I'm busy with other things right now to delve into them fully. Just wanted to say that.

 

[Lamb]

I sense that you Lutherans may be being short sighted about this. I don't do good works for gain, my heart is on my obedience to the Lord.

You Lutherans seems like you wont answer certain questions, so unless you're willing to answer questions, perhaps it would be better if you dont respond to me?


I'll prove it. I know, I have not asked you this before, but I am asking you now. Will Lutherans answer directly or go off on a tangent and avoid the question and like that?

Anyway, on to the question. We're discussing good works and if we should do them. Now seeing that scripture says, hey when did we do that for you Lord? And the Lord says, when you do it for another, it is doing it for me....

Then Jesus Makes another comment about those who do and those who dont do good works to help people out...and Jesus said they will go into eternal punishment, and the righteous (which I assume is the people who do do good works)....
What does mean by this last statement? WHat does it mean.

I'm trying to see your Lutheran perspective and from what you say, this statement seems to create a problem with. Is it just me? WHat does that mean?

And @Lamb...


So it is not us that do good works for other people, but Jesus Himself does it through us, just makes it happen?
So if the least that you do for another person is like doing it for Jesus Himself....then, what your saying, is that Jesus will do it Himself, for Himself. We have nothing to do with it?

So you didn't cut your neighbors grass. Did Jesus come and do it for Himself?

Then Jesus Makes another comment about those who do and those who dont do good works to help people out...and Jesus said they will go into eternal punishment, and the righteous (which I assume is the people who do do good works)....
What does mean by this last statement? WHat does it mean.

We're righteous because of faith in Jesus, so at judgment day, we will have eternal life (because of faith in Jesus who died for the forgiveness of our sins). The faithful do works because the Holy Spirit is at work within us. It's not the good works that get us to heaven, but they're considered "good" because we have faith.

Those who don't have faith, are not righteous. Their works are judged based upon the fact that they don't have faith, and their works are not considered good because the reject our triune God.

So it is not us that do good works for other people, but Jesus Himself does it through us, just makes it happen?
So if the least that you do for another person is like doing it for Jesus Himself....then, what your saying, is that Jesus will do it Himself, for Himself. We have nothing to do with it?

So you didn't cut your neighbors grass. Did Jesus come and do it for Himself?

We do the good works because we have the Holy Spirt within us. It's not like we're all on our own.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,


Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,

 

[Lamb]

If the new Adam in us almost automatically does good works without our need to persevere in our grateful lives, why do you think the New Testament letter writers command their fellow Christians to live lives pleasing to God (for example, Colossians 3 and 4, Ephesians 4-6, Romans 12-16, Hebrews 12 and 13), @Lamb? There is the ALREADY/NOT YET aspect of the gospel. We are already perfect in principle in the Father's sight because of Jesus' death but not yet perfect in practice, in which we need to cooperate through Jesus' resurrection power (Colossians 31-10):

Col 3:1 If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
Col 3:6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming.
Col 3:7 In these you too once walked, when you were living in them.
Col 3:8 But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth.
Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

We do good works because our neighbors need us to do them.

Ephesians 2:10

For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[Creed]

As near as I can tell, God asks four things of man.
To humble ourselves.
Pray.
Seek His Face.
Turn from our wicked ways.

Other things are a given, right? Like, Obey, be a doer of the word and apply it to our lives and so forth.

So, would you say that Jesus will save you if you meet these conditions first?

 

[Edward429451]

We're righteous because of faith in Jesus, so at judgment day, we will have eternal life (because of faith in Jesus who died for the forgiveness of our sins). The faithful do works because the Holy Spirit is at work within us. It's not the good works that get us to heaven, but they're considered "good" because we have faith.

Those who don't have faith, are not righteous. Their works are judged based upon the fact that they don't have faith, and their works are not considered good because the reject our triune God.

I guess I should make a preamble for every single post of mine in this thread.

"Again, now we all know that Salvation is a free gift and no works can get you into Heaven. Works has nothing to do with Salvation"

Like that. Can you read that? I have Bolded it. I have in Italics.
and underlined. Do you understand what I said? Can you comprehend it? Can you remember it?

No one said anything about works get you into heaven. Not one thing. Show me....

We do the good works because we have the Holy Spirt within us. It's not like we're all on our own.

1 Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,


Ephesians 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

2 Peter 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,

I don't understand what you are trying to say. Can you clarify yourself? "It's not like we're all on our own." you said. So we can't ever get our own idea to help someone out? I just passed a homeless guy holding a sign. The Holy Spirit didn't tell me to give the guy some money to help him out...can I still do it, or do I not do it because the Holy Spirit didn't tell me to?

 

[Edward429451]

"Again, now we all know that Salvation is a free gift and no works can get you into Heaven. Works has nothing to do with Salvation"
That's for Lamb.

So, would you say that Jesus will save you if you meet these conditions first?

Depends on how you look at it I guess.

(As near as I can tell, God asks four things of man.
To humble ourselves.
Pray.
Seek His Face.
Turn from our wicked ways.)

At least part of those. It takes a bit of humility to make the walk down the isle to the altar call. there is a prayer involved, we are at that point seeking His face. We may or may not have turned from our wicked ways yet, but that's page 1 after the prayer. Doesn't some remorse pretty much have to be present for us to respond to an altar call? I would think so.

 

[jesus lover]

Growing up I learned jesus will save you if you pray.Jesus come into my heart.

 

[Creed]

Depends on how you look at it I guess.

(As near as I can tell, God asks four things of man.
To humble ourselves.
Pray.
Seek His Face.
Turn from our wicked ways.)

At least part of those. It takes a bit of humility to make the walk down the isle to the altar call. there is a prayer involved, we are at that point seeking His face. We may or may not have turned from our wicked ways yet, but that's page 1 after the prayer. Doesn't some remorse pretty much have to be present for us to respond to an altar call? I would think so.

Here's how I look at it—scripture makes it clear that without faith, it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6), and since nobody can ever do what is pleasing to God (Rom 8:8), we can't come to faith on our own.

So, we don't pray, seek, and turn from our wicked ways so that Jesus will save us, but we do those things because Jesus has already saved us.

 

[Lamb]

Here's how I look at it—scripture makes it clear that without faith, it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6), and since nobody can ever do what is pleasing to God (Rom 8:8), we can't come to faith on our own.

So, we don't pray, seek, and turn from our wicked ways so that Jesus will save us, but we do those things because Jesus has already saved us.

Yes, that's what I believe because dead men can't make themselves live. That's God's job

 

[jswauto]

To be clear, you're not asserting Romans 10 as a formula or means to salvation, right?

Yes, I am absolutely asserting that all these scriptures are a formula and a means to salvation with Romans 10:9 being the most clear-cut and decisive procedures, with Acts 16:31 second.

But check these out:

John 3:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Thessalonians:

9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

John 3:

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 1:

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Edward429451]

Here's how I look at it—scripture makes it clear that without faith, it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6), and since nobody can ever do what is pleasing to God (Rom 8:8), we can't come to faith on our own.

So, we don't pray, seek, and turn from our wicked ways so that Jesus will save us, but we do those things because Jesus has already saved us.

I thought about adding faith to the list of 4. Belief too because Jesus said all have a measure of faith but in His home town He could not do many miracles because of their unbelief.

So a Protestant says there is repentance that takes place. Good job. I've been trying to get the Lutherans to admit it too and so far, they have not.

 

[Lamb]

I thought about adding faith to the list of 4. Belief too because Jesus said all have a measure of faith but in His home town He could not do many miracles because of their unbelief.

So a Protestant says there is repentance that takes place. Good job. I've been trying to get the Lutherans to admit it too and so far, they have not.

Excuse me, but this Lutheran has told you about God's working within us to bring us to true repentance. It's only by the grace of God that anyone could repent.

 

[Edward429451]

Excuse me, but this Lutheran has told you about God's working within us to bring us to true repentance. It's only by the grace of God that anyone could repent.

You acted like we have nothing to do with it, that is all God, and that's not true. God may certainly be a portion of it, but make no mistake, we walk it out. We cooperate with the Holy Spirit. Or nothing happens, there is no relationship.

So did you repent? Once God showered the graces upon you and brought you to repentance?

 

[Creed]

I thought about adding faith to the list of 4. Belief too because Jesus said all have a measure of faith but in His home town He could not do many miracles because of their unbelief.

What scripture says that Jesus has given every unbeliever a measure of faith?

So a Protestant says there is repentance that takes place. Good job. I've been trying to get the Lutherans to admit it too and so far, they have not.

I'm a protestant because I recognize that repentance is a gift that has to be given to us by God. Unlike what the Catholic church teaches, it isn't something that we can muster up for for ourselves.

Acts 11:18 - When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

 

[Lamb]

You acted like we have nothing to do with it, that is all God, and that's not true. God may certainly be a portion of it, but make no mistake, we walk it out. We cooperate with the Holy Spirit. Or nothing happens, there is no relationship.

So did you repent? Once God showered the graces upon you and brought you to repentance?

We do the works that God has planned for us to do...we do them with his leading/guidance, but yes, we're doing them. I'm sorry you got confused but I thought I was clear on what I had posted previously. God works through us, the scriptures are very clear on that.

We repent because God turns us to Him. We can't repent on our own and have no power to do it, it's another work of God within us. Repentance isn't just sorrow from sins, but also turning to God in faith and faith is from God.

 

[Edward429451]

What scripture says that Jesus has given every unbeliever a measure of faith?



I'm a protestant because I recognize that repentance is a gift that has to be given to us by God. Unlike what the Catholic church teaches, it isn't something that we can muster up for for ourselves.

Acts 11:18 - When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

I just want to be clear and understand what you are saying. Correct me if I am wrong, but are you saying that, we don't have to repent? That either God grants us repentance or He doesn't?