Issues in the Reformation: Salvation

[Josiah]

Issues of the Reformation: Salvation


This was the KEY ISSUE. It was the one issue over which the church of the day used to excommunicate Luther, split the denomination and drive the Reformation. There were several other main issues (ecclesiology, epistemology and several others), but this was the “deal breaker.” And this issue is at the very heart, the very center of Christianity…. It is the “keystone” by which Christianity stands or falls.

We must begin with a definition: By “salvation” Protestants mean justification in the narrow sense. The word means "to rescue" and Protestants tend to hold that we were DEAD and unable to rescue ourselves, we NEED a savior, the savior, someone outside ourselves, indeed God Himself, to rescue us.

SOME Catholics refer to this as "initial grace."

By "salvation" we mean our changed relationship with God, our spiritual coming to life, some call this "Born again (born a second time - first physical, second spiritual)" It is not at all to be mixed or confused with sanctification (discipleship, Christian living) which is what results and follows from justification – what we are to do as Christians (those justified). Here, when we say “salvation” we mean it in this sense of narrow justification. We are NOT at all dismissing the Call to perfect holiness, divine love, absolute moral perfection, service to all as unto God, and the sharing of the Gospel with all 7.7 billion people on Earth.... salvation does not cancel the Law BUT it does remove the curse of the Law, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, there is forgiveness; for the saved, the Law remains but the Gospel is now present too.


+ Christ IS the Savior!

Salvation (in this sense) all hinges on one pretty simple but very, very critical question (all eternity hinges on it): WHO is the Savior?

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely wrapped up in Jesus. Alone. Salvation is the work of Jesus, the accomplishment of Jesus, something Jesus does. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. Not in whole. Not in part. Not now. Not ever. You may have some other role in some other matter (Christian living, for example), but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "me!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus - not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. In YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR decisions. Your surrendering. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Here’s the problem…..

While the church was ONCE crystal clear that Jesus is the exclusive SAVIOR (even officially declaring so at the Council of Orange in 529), all this had gotten seriously gummed up. For centuries before Luther, the “answer” was pretty much: ME. The typical view in Luther’s time was that rather than being the Savior, Jesus actually had two very different roles:

Jesus the Possibility-Maker. The “spin” was that Jesus did all that is necessary to make salvation possible. By His life, death and resurrection, He opened the gate to heaven, and made it POSSIBLE to us to be saved. Of course, that’s true – but its light years away from saying He’s the Savior! People were told THEY had to get THEMSELVES through those gates – thus the actual “job” of salvation is our own. People were told that Jesus is not the Savior (you have that job) rather He is the possibility-maker. Some stressed that we save ourselves by our works or our faith, others had other ideas in how we save ourselves but they are all embracing that while Jesus makes salvation possible – we actually save ourselves by what WE do, something(s) we can point to that WE did.

Jesus the Helper. But we can’t do it by our own innate strength and ability – we need HELP. The medieval church of the west defined the word “grace” (in justification) as “help.” Or as it is sometimes put today, “Grace is the divine ‘gas’ God puts in your ‘tank’ so that YOU ultimately can get YOURSELF where you need to be.” This “help” became the focus of the concept of salvation – the HELP we need (and get) so that we can save ourselves. HELP from the Roman Catholic Church…. HELP from the official current “Saints” declared by the Roman Catholic Church, HELP from the “Treasury of Merits” of the Roman Catholic Church, HELP from the Virgin Mary, etc. Jesus too began to be proclaimed as our HELPER. If YOU adequately tap this “help” you can save yourself. But that’s lightyears away from proclaiming that Jesus saves!


There are really just two places to look: To the mirror OR to the Cross. There are really only two religions in the world: Trusting in Christ or trusting in self. When we stop looking to the perfect, divine CHRIST and instead look in the mirror to the sinful, flawed, limited SELF – either uncertainty and fear result (as we realize how lacking we are) OR pride/boasting results if we conclude the guy in the mirror in one awesome dude. Most lacked the ego for the second – so fear, insecurity reigned as people HOPED someday to save themselves but….

+ Monergism vs. Synergism – The DEBATE


These are the theological terms used for the “two sides” in this critical debate (that ultimately split the Roman Catholic Church in 1521). Note, all agreed that sanctification (discipleship, the life of a Christian, what one does as a Christian with faith and the Holy Spirit) certainly IS synergistic (no debate there). But central to the entire debate centered on salvation - the COMING of the Holy Spirit, of spiritual life, of the application of the Gospel and work of Christ, the coming of the gift of faith) - "salvation" in the sense Luther and Calvin meant it (as the Catholic Church well knew).

Monergism (One-side) is the conviction that salvation is God’s gracious gift. Jesus is THE one, exclusive, all-sufficient Savior. This conviction is the basis for the “rally cries” of the Reformation: Sola Gratia – Solus Christus – Sola Fide. Soli Deo Gloria! The “sola, solus, soli” are all Latin for exclusively, solely, alone, only. The Reformation is a solid, bold, confident proclamation that salvation is all about Jesus!

Lutherans and Calvinists express this teaching by 4 Latin phrases. They are ONE, united, inseparable teaching (they cannot be separated) but are sometimes discussed individually.

SOLA Gratia – Grace Alone: it’s all about God’s heart! It all begins with and happens because of God’s heart, His unconditional and unearned love, favor, mercy and gifts. “For God so loved the world…..”

SOLUS Christus – Christ Alone: It’s all the result of what Jesus did/does; Christ is the Savior! “… that He gave His only begotten son”

SOLA Fide – Faith Alone: Which faith trusts/embraces/apprehends; faith as God’s work, too. How the work of Christ is applied to the individual. “whosoever believes in Him”

SOLI Deo Gloria – God ALONE has all the glory, gets all the “credit.” ALL the above is God’s doing. The arrow comes down….. a blessing….. a gift….. an inheritance….


Synergism (Two-sides, Cooperation). This became the Catholic position against Luther. Our salvation, the Roman Catholic Church of the day insisted, is a cooperative venture: Jesus does his part (opening those gates) and we do ours (walking through them). Luther, it insisted, was a heretic for holding to the view of monergism, for holding that Jesus is the all-sufficient Savior. The Catholic Church insisted Jesus has to do His part good enough (and He did), now we gotta do our part good enough (ultimately it's WE who do that part that actually results in our entering heaven).

Luther stressed it’s all a GIFT from God! God’s doing! Luther stressed God’s mercy, favor, and unconditional love. The church then stressed it’s instead a cooperative venture – Jesus opening the “gates” and insuring we are offered sufficient help – we needing to “tap” that sufficiently, do all the “stuff” we need to do, and (ultimately) get ourselves saved.

Without a doubt, there was plenty of “talking past” each other (sadly, misunderstandings often play part of debate) but largely – it came down to these two basic, mutually exclusive views. Luther would not recant and so was excommunicated (by the way, Luther desired to submit BOTH views to a true ecumenical council and submit to its ruling, but that never happened).

Know that there are LOTS of modern forms of synergism (it’s alive and well and living in a lot of churches – some of which are “Protestant”). Synergism is any form of Jesus PLUS me. When salvation (in the sense we are speaking of here) is said to require: “You must surrender the steering wheel of your life!” “You must recite the sinner’s prayer!” “You must dedicate your life to Jesus!” If it’s “you” – it’s not all about Jesus. If it’s ‘you’ then it’s looking in the mirror, not to the Cross. Beware of “Yeah, Jesus is the Savior BUT you gotta (fill in the blank) !” That’s a contradiction. That’s synergism… it’s ultimately looking in the mirror, trusting in self, denying Jesus as the Savior. AGAIN, that IS true in Sanctification (the Christian life) but not in Justification (the BECOMING a Christian).


Continues in next post....




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[Josiah]

Continuing from above....


Note that Lutheranism and Calvinism - the two sides of "first wave Protestantism" - vary a bit. Lutheranism is far more embracing of mystery and admitting we simply don't know some things, we can't answer all questions (even good ones), and more comfortable with tensions. Also the Law/Gospel distinction is very important in Lutheranism Lutherans shy away from reason and philosophy with a desire "speak boldly where Scripture is bold, and be silent where Scripture is silent." Reformed Protestants are more comfortable with human reason and logic, and thus with constructing theology based on such.


+ Lutheran Theology’s Favorite Word


How does all this “crank out” in real life? How – exactly – does God DO all this in people’s lives? Why do some people believe and some don’t? Does God force his will on people? Yesiree, there’s a bunch of practical questions (a few of which are valid). How do Lutherans answer all these endless questions of HOW? Typically, we don’t. The favorite word in Lutheran theology is “mystery.” We use it a LOT.

We use it when there’s a valid question…. but there is no clear, sound, biblical “answer.” We don’t ASSUME that Lutherans (and especially ONLY Lutherans) perfectly know how all this works…. how it “cranks out,” how God applies the work of Jesus to us…. how God gives us the gift of salvation through faith….. why God loves us so much….. why the life, death, resurrection of Christ saves…. People can theorize (if they really insist, if they can’t resist that temptation) but we can’t be dogmatic about such things when God is not. It’s okay to say, “I don’t know.” In fact, it’s often a really wise thing to say.

People (with our puny, limited, sinful brains…. Luther didn’t think much of them) are apt to conclude that because some aren’t saved, therefore it must be because WE didn’t do our part (maybe forgot to jump through some hoop). Perhaps that makes sense to some, but it’s not biblical. Some may conclude it’s because some aren’t good enough or repentant enough or don’t belong to the right denomination or didn’t (fill in the blank) but they all are making a wrong assumption: that the Savior is self. They are looking in the mirror.

Lutherans accept that we can’t “answer” all the practical issues here – and (to be frank) we’re totally okay with that. But THIS we will shout from the rooftops: JESUS is THE Savior! If it has to do with salvation, Jesus handles it. It’s grace! It’s mercy! It’s an inheritance! It’s a blessing! It’s a free gift! And it’s all about Jesus! Lift high the Cross (and please hide my mirror)!



Continues in the next post.....





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[Josiah]

Continuing from above....


+ Some Scriptures

Law

“You must be morally perfect just as your Father in heaven is morally perfect” (Matt. 5:48).

“You must be holy for I the Lord your God am holy” (Leviticus 20:26).

“For all people sin and fall short of God’s requirements” (Romans 3:23).

“There is no one that does good, not even one” (Romans 3:12).

“By our efforts will no one be justified” (Galatians 2:16).

“If salvation were through our keeping of the law then Christ died for no purpose” (Galatians 2:21).

Gospel

“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16),

“God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).

“God saved us not because of deeds done by us but in virtue of His own mercy, that we might be saved by His grace” (Titus 3:5),

“For our sake God made Jesus to be sin who knew no sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

“The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 6:23).

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your doing but it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8).

“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)

“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” Acts 16:30-31

“Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world” 1 John 2:2

“Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” - John 1:29

“The blood of Jesus purifies us from all sin.” 1 John 1:7

“God reconciled the world to Himself through Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.” 2 Cor. 5:19

“Because I live, you will live also.” John 14:19


Faith


“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and all this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8

“”You did not chose Me but I chose you” John 15:16

“Those whom He predestined He also called and those whom He called He also justified” Romans 8:30

“There is a remnant of believers, chosen by God’s grace” Romans 11:5

“In love God chose us before the foundations of the world for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ” Ephesians 1:4-5

“The one without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand (accept) them.” 1 Cor. 2:14

“No one is capable of professing ‘Jesus is Lord’ apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.” 1 Cor. 12:3


+ Some quotes

Luther’s explanation of the Apostle’s Creed:

I believe that God has made me and all creatures; that He has given me my body and soul, eyes, ears, and all my limbs, my reason, and all my senses, and still preserves them; in addition thereto, given me clothing and shoes, meat and drink, house and homestead, wife and children, fields, cattle, and all my goods; that He gives me richly and daily with all that I need to support this body and life, protects me from all danger, and guards me and preserves me from all evil; and all this out of pure, fatherly, divine goodness and mercy, without any merit or worthiness in me; for all which I owe it to Him to thank, praise, serve, and obey Him.

I believe that Jesus Christ, true God, begotten of the Father from eternity, and also true man, born of the Virgin Mary, is my Lord, who has redeemed me, a lost and condemned creature, purchased and won [delivered] me from all sins, from death, and from the power of the devil, not with gold or silver, but with His holy, precious blood and with His innocent suffering and death, in order that I may be His own, and live under Him in His kingdom, and serve Him in everlasting righteousness, innocence, and blessedness, even as He is risen from the dead, lives and reigns to all eternity.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

From Luther’s “Bondage of the Will”

"Man’s salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsels, efforts, will and works, and depends absolutely on the will, counsel, pleasure and work of Another -- Christ alone, who alone is Savior. As long as a man is persuaded that he can make even the smallest contribution to his salvation, he remains self-confident and away from salvation.”



Thank you!


Blessings!


Josiah




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[Lamb]

Jesus said, "“Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

If you look at how little children are, then you'll notice that they can't save themselves. See a child drowning in a river, does the parent yell for him to swim over and then he'll save him? Or does the parent actually save the child? He saves them. That's why the Romans get it wrong when they say that we have a part to play before we can get to heaven. Look at children and parents and then see the glorious grace that God the Father has for His children and how HE saves.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Spiritual Anarchy!

Pride, presumption, and arrogance!

Private judgement!

Personal interpretation!

I decide truth for myself!

This is NOT Christian virtues!

This is NOT faith!

1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

This extends to the truth and to the church founded by Christ to teach all men!

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

God initiated each covenant and the mediator always remains on earth mediating the covenant except for Christ who made Peter His personal representative and vicar! (Matt 16:18)

Adam
(Marriage covenant)

Noah
(Family covenant)

Abraham
(Tribal covenant)

Moses:
(National covenant)

Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)

New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18

Universal (Catholic)
World universal

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal)

Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people

Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world

Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Lk 2: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (All people universal)

1 Tim 2:5 one mediator

Jn 10:16 One new covenant church

Only Peter and His successors have jurisdictional authority from Christ!

Peter

Peter is already administering the kingdom

Already acting in the person of Christ even acting as mediator

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself!

Matt 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the houser, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself! Matt 17:27

Jesus Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to peter matt 16:18-19 making him prime minister applying Isa 22:21-22 to peter

It’s Christ who does this

Why is the name of peter even mentioned?

Why does Christ change Peter’s name, God changing a persons name like Abram to Abraham or Jacob to Israel always signifies a mission or ministry!

Why does Christ give him the keys of jurisdictional authority that the prime minister holds under the king to administer the kingdom? Isa 22:21-22

How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?


also have to explain
Isa 22:21-22 jurisdictional authority of the keys and called father
Matt 28:19 go teach baptize
Jn 20:21-23 same mission power and authority as christ
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 successors of Moses have the jurisdictional authority and the power to bind and loose which Christ says must be obeyed, then taken from them matt 21:43 given to Peter and the apostles and their successors

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



Applies only to Peter as “prince of the apostles”!

Peter and his successors are the Leader of the apostles and the head of the church until Christ returns!

Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Lk 22:32 Christ prayed for Peter!

Peter is head of the church!

Isa 22:21-22 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 23:1 power and authority of the kingdom known in the keys and binding and loosing, Matt 21:43 kingdom shall be taken from you given to another who will bear fruit. (Peter the apostles in holy church Lk 22:29)

Matt 17:27 Jesus identified peter with himself.

Matt 16:17 Peter alone received revelation from the Father

Lk 22:32 Peter to strengthen his brethren (the apostles)

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep

Peter exercises his authority over the apostles and the church!

Acts 1:15
Acts 3:4
Acts 5:5 5:10
Acts 15:7

ONLY TO PETER CHRIST SAID: THOU ART PETER AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILT MY CHURCH, AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT!Matt 16:18

Peter is the prime minister, father, and head of the church on earth until Christ returns Isa 22:21-22

Seat of peter remains Until Christ returns
Matt 28:19-20


Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.


Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

4 important questions:

1) How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

2) How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

3) How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?

4) why did Christ give the keys to Peter (and only to Peter) keys of jurisdictional authority. Isa 22:21-22 why even bother to mention Peter if he is not involved?

Explain Jn 20:21 Peter and the apostles and their successors have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! “As the father sent me, so I send you”!

Matt 28:19 christ communicates his authority to peter and the apostles to teach all nations, baptize all disciples!
Jn 20:21-23 apostles even have authority to forgive sins
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 the authority and power of the successors of Moses required to be obeyed are taken from them and given to Peter and the apostles

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

2 Tim 3: 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
(Protestants, fundamentalists, etc.)

Christ and His church are one!
God cannot reveal error and the church cannot teach error!

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics like luther, calvin, etc. but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!

 

[Lamb]

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics like luther, calvin, etc. but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!

Christians all over the world are grateful that Luther pointed people back to Christ and way from the errors of the Roman Catholic church.

 

[Andrew]

Jesus said, "“Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

If you look at how little children are, then you'll notice that they can't save themselves. See a child drowning in a river, does the parent yell for him to swim over and then he'll save him? Or does the parent actually save the child? He saves them. That's why the Romans get it wrong when they say that we have a part to play before we can get to heaven. Look at children and parents and then see the glorious grace that God the Father has for His children and how HE saves.

Wow! Thats a great understanding of that quote, thanks

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Christians all over the world are grateful that Luther pointed people back to Christ and way from the errors of the Roman Catholic church.

Not possible on either acct. heretics have no truth, what so called reformer was an apostle with authority from Christ eph 2:20 and the church founded by Christ cannot teach error or Christ would be teaching error, Jn 16:13 cannot have Christ apart from his holy church eph 5:32

 

[Lamb]

Not possible on either acct. heretics have no truth, what so called reformer was an apostle with authority from Christ eph 2:20 and the church founded by Christ cannot teach error or Christ would be teaching error, Jn 16:13 cannot have Christ apart from his holy church eph 5:32

Lutherans, Calvinists, etc are not heretics since they trust in Jesus as their Savior. Please stop saying that we are not Christians.

 

[Josiah]

the church founded by Christ cannot teach error or Christ would be teaching error

1. Quote the verse that states, "The church Jesus founded cannot teach error."

2. Quote the verse that states, "Jesus founded The Catholic Church - not the Greek Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, or any other denomination."

, Jn 16:13 eph 5:32

I really appreciate the work you do in proving Scripture says NOTHING about your church, how you so consistently prove that the egotistical, power-grabbing, accountability-evading claims of your church itself for it itself alone are nowhere taught in Scripture. Indeed, you keep reminding me of how Jesus insisted, "do not lord it over others as the Gentiles do."



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[Castle Church]

1. Quote the verse that states, "The church Jesus founded cannot teach error."

2. Quote the verse that states, "Jesus founded The Catholic Church - not the Greek Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, or any other denomination."





I really appreciate the work you do in proving Scripture says NOTHING about your church, how you so consistently prove that the egotistical, power-grabbing, accountability-evading claims of your church itself for it itself alone are nowhere taught in Scripture. Indeed, you keep reminding me of how Jesus insisted, "do not lord it over others as the Gentiles do."



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^^^ This.

Not even the RCC makes these extreme claims any longer. From the Catechism:

The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. Those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. With the Orthodox churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist. (CCC 838)

 

[Josiah]

Corinthians 16:22 (eph 5:23) (col 1:18) Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) (Heb 8:13) l Matthew 21:43 , (Lk 1:32-33) (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24)
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
(Matt 16:18) Lk 2:10 Lk 2:31 Jn 1:29 Jn 3:16 1 Jn 2:2 Lk 2: 10 1 Tim 2:5 Jn 10:16 Matt 17:24 Matt 17:27 matt 16:18-19 Isa 22:21-22 Matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23
Eph 2:20 Matt 23 Lk 22:29 Lk 22:29 Lk 22:32 Isa 22:21-22 21

Thanks again for going to such great lengths to PROVE that Scripture says NOTHING about your church...

And for proving (yet again) that Scripture states NONE of the egotistical, power-grabbing, lording-it-over-others claims of The Catholic Church itself for it itself.

You do the work for us, PROVING it's all just the egotistical, accountability-evading, power-grabbing claims of itself for itself. None of it comes from Jesus, the Apostles or Scripture. As you yourself work so hard to undeniably prove. Thank you.




Now, back to the issue: See the opening posts.

This thread is not about examples of violating Jesus' command that Christians not lord it over others as the Gentiles do.




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[Fritz Kobus]

Jesus said, "“Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3

If you look at how little children are, then you'll notice that they can't save themselves. See a child drowning in a river, does the parent yell for him to swim over and then he'll save him? Or does the parent actually save the child? He saves them. That's why the Romans get it wrong when they say that we have a part to play before we can get to heaven. Look at children and parents and then see the glorious grace that God the Father has for His children and how HE saves.

What did Jesus mean by "unless you turn and become like children"? Sounds like he is telling them to do something. But I maintain that whatever we do in response to God's call to salvation is done by the power of the Holy Spirit working within us so it is not of ourselves.

Also, once saved we are expected to obey God's commands. In fact even before we are saved we are expected to obey God's commands.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Lutherans, Calvinists, etc are not heretics since they trust in Jesus as their Savior. Please stop saying that we are not Christians.

You say you’re believers, a believer is not a Christian only a catechumen, faith and baptism are the first requirements of the new covenant church, all heretics, schismatics, and apostates are outside the church where there is no possibility of salvation!

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Unity of faith!

The new covenant unity:
Union with Christ the mediator and communion with God and the saints is based on “unity of faith”

“Thee faith” of the new covenant that all must believe without any error, false or strange doctrines foreign to “thee faith” of the new covenant!

“Thee faith” is found 31 times in the New Testament!

Obedience of faith: rom 16:26

Ephesians 4
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. ...

Romans 12:16
Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

Romans 15:6
That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:11
Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Philippians 2:2
Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

2 Timothy 4:7
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)

Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.

One church founded by Jesus Christ!

there is only one!
One God!
One Lord!
One savior!
One faith!
One new covenant!
One kingdom!
One household of faith!
One vineyard!
One church! (Not thousands of sects All teaching different doctrines all on the Bible alone, by the tradition of men)
Only Christ has authority to found the new covenant church! Matt 16:18-19
One shepherd one fold Jn 10:16
1 Tim 3:15 pillar and ground of truth
All men must be taught by the church!

Truth is revealed by God, fully by Christ, and must be proposed for our belief by holy mother church! Matt 28:19 Lk 1:4 Acts 8:31 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 one faith

Unity of faith!

Four Marks of the True Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church!

The church is One:

Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Isa 22:21-22

21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open. (Matt 16:18-19)

Dan 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, (acts 2:17 began at Pentecost) that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Lk 1:32-33 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

^^^ This.

Not even the RCC makes these extreme claims any longer. From the Catechism:

I’m not a modernist ccc catholic

 

[Josiah]

MARK,


Every time you reference or quote Scripture, you are just PROVING that what you are claiming is not what Scripture says. For some reason, you choose to just keep shooting yourself in the foot.

And when you post stuff along with the reference, the only thing it does is PROVE what you state is not what the verse states.

And for some reason, you are just evading the thread, trying hard to change the subject.



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[Faithhopeandcharity]

Christ is king and kings rule! And his authorized ministers

 

[Castle Church]

Christ is king and kings rule! And his authorized ministers

Which you are not in submission to if you are self declared to be "not a modernist ccc catholic".

 

[Josiah]

Castle Church -


You are correct that our Catholic friend is not consistently presenting the Catholic position. In Catholicism, there are fundamental/extremists that like to keep the old anti-Protestant myths alive and some of the old apologetics (from 200-50 years ago) going but they are RARE. I suspect our Catholic brother in Christ is doing copy/paste from some radical, fundamentalist Catholic site. Too bad, actually.... we very much NEED Catholic brothers and sisters actively posting here, sharing the Catholic perspective. But he's not (always), he's just echoing old, worn, wrong, abandoned apologetics of fundamentalist/radical Catholics. He is welcome to do so, of course, but it doesn't help us... and it just hurts Catholicism.


And what I see from him is what I saw in the TINY number of fundamentalist Catholics in my Catholic days... an attempt to use Sola Scripture to impress Protestants.

It's unintentional, of course, but what our Catholic brother is doing is PROVING to all the Protestants here how very unbiblical fundamentalist Catholicism actually is.




Back to the issue of the thread...




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