Is there a Michael - Jesus connection in scripture? What is the history of this?

[BluePrints]

... continued ...

... ranging from Angels to Seraphim that were created by God and are below him ...

There is no question that created beings like Gabriel, or the Seraphim and Cherubims and the created heavenly host of 'angels' (messengers) are created by "God and are below him":

Rev_19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.​

​

Rev_22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.​

However, your response is arguing in a circular a priori. In other words, your response is merely assuming (without demonstration or documented evidence) that Michael the archangel is a created being as others but without evidence, as you are merely asserting it (and the asserting point needs to demonstrate their point, not merely assert their point). The OP linked materials shows that this is not the case by numerous parallelisms to Jesus Himself, especially in Rev. 12 (see Chap. 5; pages 45-53 for the full details - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive , or I can reproduce it here as necessary), but not only there.

In example:

"... [page 48] Notice the basic, or simplified, chiastic structure to begin with:​

​

[A1] Revelation 12:1-5 KJB = Woman, Child and Dragon​

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[B1] Revelation 12:6 KJB = Woman in Wilderness for 1,260 days (years)​

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[C1] Revelation 12:7-9 KJB = War between Michael and Satan in Heaven​

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[D1] Revelation 12:10 KJB = Cross, Power of Christ, His Victory​

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[D2] Revelation 12:11 KJB = Lamb, Blood of Christ, Their (overcoming saints) Victory in Him​

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[C2] Revelation 12:12 KJB = Dragon permanently cast down to Earth fights against Jesus’ body​

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[B2] Revelation 12:13-16 KJB = Woman in Wilderness, for a time, and times, and half a time (aka, 3 ½ times or 1,260 days (years))​

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[A2] Revelation 12:17 KJB = Woman, her Seed and Dragon​

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An example of another parallelism within the greater:​

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Revelation 12:7 KJB - And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,​

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[A1] Michael – Leader​

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[B1] his angels – Followers​

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[A2] Dragon – Leader​

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[B2] his angels - Followers ..."​

"... [page 49] Looking at these two prime combatants, compare the surrounding context, this time starting with “the Dragon”, followed with “Michael”:​

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[1] “the Dragon” and his several titles in Revelation 12:​

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“Dragon” – Rev. 12:3,4,7,9,13,16,17 KJB​

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“serpent” – Rev. 12:9,14,15 KJB​

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“Devil” – Rev. 12:9,12 KJB​

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“Satan” – Rev. 12:9 KJB​

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“accuser of our brethren” – Rev. 12:10 KJB​

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“his” (angels) – Rev. 12:7,9 KJB​

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Compare also:​

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“neither was their place found any more in heaven” – Rev. 12:8 KJB​

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“was cast out ... cast out into the earth” – Rev. 12:9 KJB​

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“is cast down” – Rev. 12:10 KJB​

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[2] “Michael” and his several titles in Revelation 12:​

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“Michael” – Rev. 12:7 KJB​

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“Lamb” – Rev. 12:11 KJB​

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“child” – Rev. 12:2,4,5 KJB​

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“man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” – Rev. 12:5,13 KJB​

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“seed” – Rev. 12:17 KJB​

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“it” – Rev. 12:4 KJB​

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“Jesus” (even the “testimony” of) – Rev. 12:17 KJB​

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“Christ” – Rev. 12:10,17​

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“his” (angels) – Rev. 12:7 KJB​

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Compare also:​

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“caught up unto God, and to his throne.” – Rev. 12:5 KJB​

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“rule all” – Rev. 12:5 KJB ..."​

Michael the archangel (Who is like unto God? (Heb. 1:3, "express image")) the highest messenger (of the Father)) is simply one of the many designations for Jesus, whom is called by many names, titles, offices, in scripture; a 3 page listing is given here (Appendix 6, pages 487-489 - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Which may be reproduced here as necessary, though it may take a few posts to completely give it.

... to be continued ...

 

[BluePrints]

... continued ...

... , Jesus is not an angel ...

Yes, Jesus is an "angel" (messenger) and I have cited numerous texts which show such.

See also - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

"... [page 153] Question 03. Is the Son of God the Father, also called “Jesus”, ever referred to as an “Angel” directly in the scripture (KJB)?​

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Answer 03. Yes. The Son of God – Jesus is directly referred to as “angel” in the King James Bible, but this does not make His Divine nature (Eternal Deity) created. He is eternal God, JEHOVAH the Son. An undisputable text demonstrating this, is found in Malachi 3:1 KJB, HOT, (Greek) Hexapla:​

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Malachi 3:1 KJB - Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (angel) of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.​

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Malachi 3:1 HOT - הנני שׁלח מלאכי ופנה־דרך לפני ופתאם יבוא אל־היכלו האדון אשׁר־אתם מבקשׁים ומלאך הברית אשׁר־אתם חפצים הנה־בא אמר יהוה צבאות׃​

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Malachi 3:1 HOT Transliterated - hin'niy sholëªch mal'äkhiy ûfiNäh-derekh' l'fänäy ûfit'om yävô el-hëykhälô häädôn ásher-aTem m'vaq'shiym ûmal'akh' haB'riyt ásher-aTem cháfëtziym hiNëh-vä ämar y'hwäh tz'väôt​

​

Malachi 3:1 Hexapla - ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ ἐξαποστέλλω τὸν ἄγγελόν μου, καὶ ἐπιβλέψεται ὁδὸν πρὸ προσώπου μου, καὶ ἐξαίφνης ἥξει εἰς τὸν ναὸν ἑαυτοῦ κύριος, ὃν ὑμεῖς ζητεῖτε, καὶ ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης, ὃν ὑμεῖς θέλετε· ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται, λέγει κύριος παντοκράτωρ.​

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Malachi 3:1 Hexapla Transliterated - idoú egó exapostéllo tón ángelón mou, kaí epivlépsetai odón pró prosópou mou, kaí exaífnis íxei eis tón naón eaftoú kýrios, ón ymeís ziteíte, kaí o ángelos tís diathíkis, ón ymeís thélete: idoú érchetai, légei kýrios pantokrátor.​

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Malachi 3:2 KJB - But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:​

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Malachi 3:3 KJB - And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.​

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An additional question that may be asked in relation to this passage, is, How does a person know for sure that the “מבקשׁים ומלאך”, “ûmal'akh' haB'riyt”, or “ὁ ἄγγελος τῆς διαθήκης”, “o ángelos tís diathíkis”, or “the messenger (angel) of the covenant” is a reference to the Son of the Father, Jesus? The answer is found in the NT gospels, of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, all of which directly cite or refer to this Malachi 3:1-3 passage, and apply the first messenger (angel) to John the Baptist, and the second messenger (angel) to the Son of God ..."​

There are also cited many so called 'ecf' that agree that this reference in Mal. 3:1 is to Jesus, as the eternal "angel" of His Father. You can see those references in Chap. 10, pages 200-368 - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

He is even called a "fellow" of the created hosts, which are also in positions / offices as "angels" (messengers) for the Father, whether of mankind or created hosts; see Heb. 1.

... but a person of the Triune God who is the creator. ...

I am not in this thread discussing the doctrine of the Catholic "Triune God". For that discussion (which was closed, even though the thread title literally says, "Non-Trinitarian & Non-Credal Discussions (All members of the site are allowed to participate.); World Religion & Speculative Theology (Forum for all members to discuss any theology., and so found the claim to be not true at all) see the brief OP and responses before it was closed by someone - Have people rightly understood the primary doctrine on Father, Son & Holy Ghost?

The OP is not questioning that Michael - Jesus is the eternal Creator. The OP is demonstrating that Michael - Jesus is not a created "angel", but one of the Eternal angels (messengers; Rev. 10:1, &c.) of the Father (the other Being the Holy Ghost / Spirit; Rev. 18;1).

Bringing in the other subject is merely seeking to get this thread closed. This thread does not violate the present regulation ad hoc imposed. This thread is only making the connection of the two (and more) designations of the Son of the Father. Even the OP linked material makes this plain, when it says:

"... [page 200] It must be seriously and duly noted, stated, admitted and acknowledged at the outset, that any source given in this portion of the book, rare though the citation may be, that actually downplays or denies the Eternal Uncreated Deity & Existence as Creator & Redeemer, the Personhood / Being and Everlasting Godhood (even Godhead; Jhn. 1:1-3; Col. 2:9; 1 Tim. 3:16 KJB), and / or manhood (the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh; Act. 2:30; Rom. 1:3, 8:3; 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:14-18 KJB) of Jesus Christ (or even that of the Person / Being Holy Ghost / Spirit; Jhn. 16:13; 1 Tim. 4:1 KJB; or, of the Eternal Heavenly Trio; Mat. 28:19; 1 Jhn. 5:7-8 KJB), in any way, is expressly condemned not only by this author, but even more so by the Holy Bible (KJB) itself. No such theology that denies those sacred truths is ever promoted, or advocated, by this author, to be correct, but is always soundly condemned as heresy (2 Pet. 2:1 KJB), and is to be shown to be so, as error, in the love of Jesus Christ (Rev. 3:19 KJB) that all may repent of sin, and turn to the love of the truth (2 Thes. 2:10 KJB) as it is in the only begotten Son of the God the Father. ..." - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

... to be continued ...

 

[BluePrints]

... to be continued ...

... Implying that Jesus and Michael are the same is unsound doctrine...

No, it simply disagrees with your position which is not actually evidence against it's position. The evidence, in abundance, by scripture, parallelisms, definitions, linguistics, and even historical position, shows that it (Michael = Jesus) is sound doctrine, and held by thousands throughout the years, and that the doctrine of (Michael is a created being, is Catholic doctrine, born our of scripture ignorance from the ark ages (400-1400ish), of which every Reformer waged war against (and people like Luther, Melanchthon & many others all wrote as such on the subject).

... , a false teaching...

This is just 'you' citing 'you'.

... that stands against God by distorting and diminishing what he is. ...

No. It demonstrated who the Son is, even before His incarnation, for He, being "Michael the archangel", is ever at the forefront of the battle against all error, and standing for His people (heavenly or earthly). The conclusion of the OP linked materials makes this abundantly clear. The diminishing (lessening) is that theology which seeks to take the eternal Creator (the Son) in one of His many offices, and reduce him to a created being and separate that identify from him. I know of only one being who would dare do that, and he is said to be in contrast "who is like unto the beast?" in opposition to "Who is like unto God?"

It is unwise to think this falsity is a valid doctrine ...

Again, I am not worried about what 'you' think is unwise, since previously you have demonstrated that you think "logic, philosophy or education originate in a man" - Is there a Michael - Jesus connection in scripture? What is the history of this? while I think such originates with God.

..., and even more unwise to teach it and try to spread it to others which is rebellion against God.

Again what 'you' think is "unwise" is of no real concern to me. I am not really interested in what "you think", per se, since the OP is about discussion what scripture says, not what men think (per se) (even though historical examples are also provided for those who do place weight upon such, so it is for them, not myself that they are given).

What you are essentially saying, is that all of the historical writers on the subjects, including Luther, Melanchthon, and many others, are "unwise", for not only did they write about this subject, but also waged war against Roman Catholicism by it.

What you say is "rebellion" is nothing more than your terminology for what I call "obedience" to God in love (Mat. 28:18-20). if you do not desire to discuss the topic, you are free to go where you will.

 

[Frankj]

... to be continued ...


No, it simply disagrees with your position which is not actually evidence against it's position. The evidence, in abundance, by scripture, parallelisms, definitions, linguistics, and even historical position, shows that it (Michael = Jesus) is sound doctrine, and held by thousands throughout the years, and that the doctrine of (Michael is a created being, is Catholic doctrine, born our of scripture ignorance from the ark ages (400-1400ish), of which every Reformer waged war against (and people like Luther, Melanchthon & many others all wrote as such on the subject).


This is just 'you' citing 'you'.


No. It demonstrated who the Son is, even before His incarnation, for He, being "Michael the archangel", is ever at the forefront of the battle against all error, and standing for His people (heavenly or earthly). The conclusion of the OP linked materials makes this abundantly clear. The diminishing (lessening) is that theology which seeks to take the eternal Creator (the Son) in one of His many offices, and reduce him to a created being and separate that identify from him. I know of only one being who would dare do that, and he is said to be in contrast "who is like unto the beast?" in opposition to "Who is like unto God?"


Again, I am not worried about what 'you' think is unwise, since previously you have demonstrated that you think "logic, philosophy or education originate in a man" - Is there a Michael - Jesus connection in scripture? What is the history of this? while I think such originates with God.


Again what 'you' think is "unwise" is of no real concern to me. I am not really interested in what "you think", per se, since the OP is about discussion what scripture says, not what men think (per se) (even though historical examples are also provided for those who do place weight upon such, so it is for them, not myself that they are given).

What you are essentially saying, is that all of the historical writers on the subjects, including Luther, Melanchthon, and many others, are "unwise", for not only did they write about this subject, but also waged war against Roman Catholicism by it.

What you say is "rebellion" is nothing more than your terminology for what I call "obedience" to God in love (Mat. 28:18-20). if you do not desire to discuss the topic, you are free to go where you will.

You preach false doctrine, unsound doctrine, as we are told will happen in the latter days. I have pointed this out, others have as well, I doubt you will persuade anyone here to your belief so the end result, the eternal one, is between God and You alone now.


God's Church is not the worldly Church of Accommodation that seems to have become all the rage now, maybe you should be preaching your beliefs in that church instead where it will be well received.

 

[BluePrints]

You preach false doctrine, unsound doctrine, ...

I see. I am simply to be accused, and that, undocumentedly, unevidenced.

as we are told will happen in the latter days.

This is why the OP linked materials painstakingly showed the historical continuity, and not merely the scriptural. This doctrine / teaching of Michael = Jesus, is not new to this present era, and "latter days", but has been in scripture since the first mention of Michael the archangel in Dan. 10:13 (some 6th cent. BC), along with all of the other historical references from Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) onward throughout the ages of the churches, into the Reformation, and carried on afterward by their spiritual descendants, right into the Seventh-day Adventist "remnant" (Rev. 12). It did not begin with us, but it will continue with us.

... I have pointed this out ...

No, you have merely asserted it in accusatory form over and over again (in mantric fashion).

... others have as well ...

What "others" and where (cite the exact link and response in this thread in your next response, or all may safely know that the charge is imaginary)? The only other person (besides yourself and I) that has responded in this thread was sister Lamb, and she has not accused me of any such thing in this thread, even once. The only person making such accusations against myself is yourself.

I doubt you will persuade anyone here to your belief

As shown from the OP onward, the doctrine / teaching did not originate with myself, does not belong to myself, but is as ancient as the 6th Cent. BC in the time of Daniel (Dan. 10:13), and moving forward through the NT church and its ages unto the Seventh-day Adventists "remnant" (Rev. 12) who "... continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers" (Act.2:42), like those before them in Acts.

We are with Paul on this:

Act_24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:​

What others do, say and believe contrary to that position, is their own prerogative to carry on.

... so the end result, the eternal one ...

I have no fear from Him whom I love - Michael / Jesus.

1Jn_4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

As Michael / Jesus cast out satan from heaven, and cast out satan from the land, and cast out satan from the woman, and cast out satan from me, my trust continues in Him who continues to cast out all sin / rebellion / unbelief in all those who accept Him and are willing to come unto Him, by grace through faith, and so be delivered, and so receive salvation:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.​

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Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,​

Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.​

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.​

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.​

... is between God and You alone now.

This is an open forum (at least in part), and any are free to come and go, read or not read, participate or not participate as they deem fit. There is no force here (at least not from me). My peace with the Father through Michael / Jesus and the Holy Ghost / Spirit is not in question (at least not by myself), as it is guaranteed in the gospel.

Psa_119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.​

Eph_2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;​

Col_1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.​

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,​

Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.​

... God's Church is not the worldly Church of Accommodation ...

Dear Frankj, whomever said it was in this thread? Certainly, not I, as may be witnessed from the OP and every response I have provided thereafter.

... that seems to have become all the rage now ...

Reminds me of a text:

Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:​

This is why the Seventh-day Adventists are not "many", but are instead a "remnant" (Rev. 12:17), and yet we are in practically every country in the world (Mat. 28:18-20) as foretold.

... maybe you should be preaching your beliefs in that church ...

I go everywhere the Spirit of God leadeth me, and follow the Lamb Michael / Jesus) whithersoever He goeth (Rev. 14:4), and here is simply new, and it will be up to Him when my time here is over and another place is opened. For it is God which openeth a door that no man can close and closeth a door that no man can open (Rev. 3:7-8).

instead where it will be well received.

I am not sent where things are "well received", nor to tickle anyone's ears, nor to please men (Eph. 6:6; Col. 3:22), but I am sent into all the world (Mat. 28:18-20, and by that almighty authority, above all creation, I go in it still), that all may have opportunity to hear the truth, and make a decision for or against Him (Michael / Jesus). Whether or not such doctrine is received here, will be up to each individual who prayerfully studies, asks God and reads their scriptures and believes what is written therein. For some cannot receive it now, for certain reasons:

Joh_16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.​

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Joh_3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.​

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Mat. 19:12 "... He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."​

 

[BluePrints]

You preach false doctrine, unsound doctrine ...

It really is as simple as answering (from scripture) a few questions (or asking the scriptures a few questions and receiving answer from it):

Is the Son of the Father ever identified, in scripture, as "angel"? Yes (Mal. 3:1; &c.).​

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Is the Son of the Father ever identified, in scripture, as being the Father's messenger? Yes (Jhn. 12:49; Heb. 1, &c.).​

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Is the Son of the Father ever identified, in scripture, as ruling over other messengers? Yes (Dan. 8:16; 2 Thes. 1:7, &c.).​

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Is the Son of the Father ever identified, in scripture, as the one that is like God - His Father? Yes (Heb. 1:3, &c.).​

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Is the Son of the Father ever identified, in scripture, in parallelism with Michael the archangel? Yes (Jhn. 5:25,28; 1 Thes. 4:16; Rev. 12, &c.).​

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Is Michael the archangel ever said, in scripture, to be able to deliver or bring salvation? Yes (Dan. 12:1; Rev. 12:7-11).​

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Is Michael the archangel ever said, in scripture, to be able to raise someone from the dead? Yes (Luk. 9:30-31; Rom. 5:14; Jud. 1:9; &c.).​

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Does the Son of the Father, in scripture, have many offices, names, titles, designations? Yes, such as "Emmanuel", "Lamb", "Prophet", "Apostle", "Angel of the LORD", "King", "LORD" and "God", &c.​

​

Is there any place in scripture which states that Michael is a created being? No.​

​

In scripture, the Father has His Son, and the question is asked, "Who is like unto God (His Father)?", and the devil has his system which takes the place of the Son / Christ (Latin: vicarius christi) on earth, and the question is asked, "Who is like unto the beast?"​

 

[Lamb]

I'm ending this now...

Michael in the bible is NOT Jesus.

I appreciate your presence here @BluePrints, but you've come here to preach things that are against traditional Christian beliefs, and I must ask you to stop that.

Thread is closed.