Is there a Michael - Jesus connection in scripture? What is the history of this?

[BluePrints]

Is there a Michael - Jesus connection in scripture? What is the history of this?

An excellent resource tool for discussion on this subject is found, and made available for free, here - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

An additional (lesser) resource in regards Michael, on Rev. 12 (in which Michael is mentioned) is available here - Revelation 12 - The Conflict Of The Ages : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

Is the Michael - Jesus connection only a WTS/ JW (WatchTower and Tract Society / Jehovah's Witnesses) doctrine / teaching? Did such originate with them, or have they merely altered a previously held church doctrine that had been held throughout the times of this world?​

​

Is it blasphemous to teach that Michael is the pre-incarnate (in human flesh) Son of the Father (aka, Jesus)?​

​

Does this teaching mean that a person is automatically saying that the Son of the Father (Jesus) is a created being and finite, or is that simply an incorrect assumption / accusation without foundation?​

​

What does the name / designation "Michael the archangel" even mean?​

​

What does the word "angel" in Hebrew, koine Greek and English even mean? Does it define nature, or rather office / position / function?​

​

What does the name / designation "Jesus" even mean?​

​

Did the Son of the Father exist before the creation of this world (earth), and if so according to scripture, what was His name / designation?​

​

Does the Son of the Father have many names, titles, designations, offices in scripture? If so, do they ever conflict with one another?​

​

Does Michael ever bring deliverance or salvation in the contexts in which this personage is mentioned?​

​

What did many of the church theologians, and later Reformers, like Luther, Melanchthon, Hengstenberg, and others teach and believe, and why was it important to them?​

As always, please feel free to comment, ask questions, participate in discussion, engage in prayerful bible study together! Take the time to follow scriptural counsel and read the material before entering into conversation, Pro. 18:13,17, and come to listen to what is being presented, as in Job, before speaking. There is no need to rush into anything when discussing such weighty matters. Better to ask clarifying questions, and listen to one another, and then go to the Bible together.

 

[BluePrints]

The scriptures, being clear on this subject, have led others to see the glorious truth that Michael the archangel is just one more designation of the Son (Jesus) of the Father (at least in some portion, if not in fullness), such as Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon, Genevans, and hundreds of others, all the way back even to just after the close of the Canon of scripture (AD 90's). As for instance:

"... [page 202] ​

Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180) was the bishop of Sardis near Smyrna in western Anatolia.​

​

Cureton’s Spicilegium Syriacum, containing remains of Bardesan, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes, by the Rev. William Cureton, M.A. F.R.S. Chaplain in Ordinary to the Queen, Rector of St. Margaret’s, and Canon of Westminster. London: Francis and John Rivington, St. Paul's Churchyard and Waterloo Place. M DCCC LV. (1855.), pages 53-54:​

​

“... [Page 53] From Meliton the Bishop; On Faith.​

​

We have made collections from the Law and the Prophets relative to those things which have been declared respecting our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love, that He is perfect reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator together with the Father; who was the fashioner of man; who was all in all; who among the Patriarchs was Patriarch; who in the law was the Law; among the priests Chief priest; amongst kings Governor; among prophets the Prophet; among the angels Archangel; in the Voice the Word; among spirits Spirit; in the Father the Son; in God God- the king forever and ever. For this was He who was pilot to Noah; who conducted Abraham; who was bound with Isaac, who was in exile with Jacob, who was sold with Joseph, who was captain with Moses, who was the divider of the inheritance with Jesus the Son of Nun, who in David and the prophets foretold his own sufferings, who was incarnate in the Virgin, who was born at Bethlehem, (33) who was wrapped in swaddling clothes in the manger, who was seen of the shepherds, who was glorified of the angels, who was worshipped of the Magi, who was pointed out by John, who assembled the Apostles, who preached the kingdom, who healed the maimed, who gave light to the blind, who raised the dead, who appeared in the temple, who was not believed on by the people, who was betrayed by [Page 53-54] Judas, who was laid hold on by the priests, who was condemned by Pilate, who was transfixed in the flesh, who was hanged upon the tree, who was buried in the earth, who rose from the dead, who appeared to the Apostles, who ascended to heaven, who sitteth on the right hand of the Father, who is the rest of those that are departed, the recoverer of those who were lost, the light of those who are in darkness, the deliverer of those who are captives, the guide of those who have gone astray, the refuge of the afflicted, the bridegroom of the Church, the charioteer of the Cherubim, the captain of the angels, God who is of God, the Son who is of the Father, Jesus Christ, the King for ever and ever. Amen. ...”​

- Spicilegium Syriacum: containing remains of Bardesan, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes : Cureton, William, 1808-1864 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

- Spicilegium Syriacum: containing remains of Bardesan, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes : Cureton, William, 1808-1864 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

..." - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

"... [page 223]​

​

Martin Luther (AD 10 November 1483 – AD 18 February 1546), a German, who had in early life begun to study to become a lawyer, but instead eventually became a monk (of the Roman Catholic Order of St. Augustine), and later also a Catholic priest, a professor of theology, “Dr. Luther”. Later, coming to disagreements with the Roman doctrines and practices by studying the Bible (Rom. 1:17), such as on “indulgences” (95 Theses), relics, and “the mass”, he eventually gave up Catholicism, and identified that system of faith and practice as the “antichrist” (Greek: αντιχριστος; Latin: vicarius christi; English; in the place of Christ (so opposing Christ; see 2 Thes. 2:4 KJB)). He would become an important and key figure in what became known as “the Reformation”, a movement of protest (hence derives the name “Protestants”) against the abuses and corruption in the 15th - 16th century Europe.​

​

D. Martin Luther’s Werke: Kritische Gesamtausgabe; D. Martin Luther’s Die Deutsche Bibel 1522-1546, 11. (Elfter) Band Zweite Hälft Die Übersetzung des Prophetenteils des Alten Testaments (Daniel bis Maleachi). Hermann Böhlaus Nachfolger / Weimar; 1960. pages 108-109​

​

“... [German; Page 108; 1541 Version; Page 109; 1545 Version] ZUR selbigen zeit, wird sich auffmachen der grosse Fürst Michael, der fur die Kinder deines Volcks stehet, Denn es wird ein solche trübselige Zeit sein als nicht gewest ist, sint das Leute gewest sind, bis auss diese zeit.​

​

WIEwol Michael eins Engels name ist, doch verstehen wir hie, gleich wie auch Apoc. XII. den hErrn Christum selbs da durch, Die hie niden auff Erden mit seinen Engeln, das ist Predigern, streittet wider den Teufel, durchs Evangelium, Denn er nennet in den grossen Fürsten. ...”​

​

“... [German; Page 108; 1541 Version; Page 109; 1545 Version] 1541 ... Er nennets gepflanßt, Denn der Bapst hat ein Paradis aller luft zu Rom, oder in der Kirchen, gemacht, da er aller Welt, Gut, Gewalt und Ehre, frey nach seinem willen braucht.​

​

Zur selbigen zeit, wird sich auffmachen der grosse Fürst Michael, der fur die Kinder deines Volcks stehet, Denn es wird ein solche trübselige Zeit sein als nicht gewest ist, sint das Leute gewest sind, bis auss diese zeit.​

​

WIEwol Michael eins Engels name ist, doch verstehen wir hie, gleich wie auch Apoc. xii. den hErrn Christum selbs da durch, Der hie niden auff Erden mit seinen Engeln, das ist Predigern, streittet wider den Teufel, durchs Euangelium, Denn er nennet in den grossen Fürsten. DERselbige hat sich nu auffgemacht, und stehet fur die Christen, und tröstet sie, mit dem Wort der Gnaden. DENn bis da her ist die grewlichst zeit gewest, als auff Erden ie gewest ist, WIE Christus diese wort auch füret, Matth. [Bl. T iii.] xxiiii. Und wo diese Tage nicht verkürßt weren und auffgehöret hetten, So were kein Mensch selig worden, auch die Edomiten, Moabiten, Ammoniten nicht. DENN es schon angefangen in Welschenlanden, zu Rom und mehr Orten. Das man Epicurisch aus dem Glauben ein gespött gemacht, und die Kinder auch nicht mehr teusset. Also were beide Tauffe, Sacrament, und Wort alles aus gewest, und kein Mensch mehr selig worden. ...​

​

... 9: Dan[iel]. 12,1 14: Off[enbarung]. 12,7. 19: Matth[ew]. 24,21f.”​

- Werke. Die deutsche Bibel, 1522-1546 : Luther, Martin, 1483-1546 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

- Werke. Die deutsche Bibel, 1522-1546 : Luther, Martin, 1483-1546 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

..." - https://archive.org/details/michael...e-highest-messenger_202407/page/n227/mode/1up​

How much of the historic and scriptural Christianity has been abandoned, and how much that was rediscovered (at great cost) and cherished (at the cost of life & liberty in several cases) been thrown aside?

Some people, unwilling to consider the subject prayerfully, have a misconception that those who hold to the scriptural position, think that Michael the archangel = the Son (Jesus) of the Father means that they think the Son is a created being (like the Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) do), but that is not the case at all. The eternality and Deity of the Son is not in question at all by this scriptural teaching.

Pro 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.​

​

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.​

1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.​

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.​

 

[Lamb]

Is there a Michael - Jesus connection in scripture? What is the history of this?

An excellent resource tool for discussion on this subject is found, and made available for free, here - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

An additional (lesser) resource in regards Michael, on Rev. 12 (in which Michael is mentioned) is available here - Revelation 12 - The Conflict Of The Ages : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

Is the Michael - Jesus connection only a WTS/ JW (WatchTower and Tract Society / Jehovah's Witnesses) doctrine / teaching? Did such originate with them, or have they merely altered a previously held church doctrine that had been held throughout the times of this world?​

​

Is it blasphemous to teach that Michael is the pre-incarnate (in human flesh) Son of the Father (aka, Jesus)?​

​

Does this teaching mean that a person is automatically saying that the Son of the Father (Jesus) is a created being and finite, or is that simply an incorrect assumption / accusation without foundation?​

​

What does the name / designation "Michael the archangel" even mean?​

​

What does the word "angel" in Hebrew, koine Greek and English even mean? Does it define nature, or rather office / position / function?​

​

What does the name / designation "Jesus" even mean?​

​

Did the Son of the Father exist before the creation of this world (earth), and if so according to scripture, what was His name / designation?​

​

Does the Son of the Father have many names, titles, designations, offices in scripture? If so, do they ever conflict with one another?​

​

Does Michael ever bring deliverance or salvation in the contexts in which this personage is mentioned?​

​

What did many of the church theologians, and later Reformers, like Luther, Melanchthon, Hengstenberg, and others teach and believe, and why was it important to them?​

As always, please feel free to comment, ask questions, participate in discussion, engage in prayerful bible study together! Take the time to follow scriptural counsel and read the material before entering into conversation, Pro. 18:13,17, and come to listen to what is being presented, as in Job, before speaking. There is no need to rush into anything when discussing such weighty matters. Better to ask clarifying questions, and listen to one another, and then go to the Bible together.

Did you come here to advertise your publications?

 

[Frankj]

New Age Christianity invents many doctrines and works hard to justify them so people will be led away from truth, Angel worship is among them.

 

[BluePrints]

Did you come here to advertise your publications?

No sister. I came to discuss scripture, history, doctrine, theology, practices, learn more in depth of certain differing positions, have fellowship in study, be edified, encouraged, be loved. The materials are simply good resources to begin such discussions. I can use non-Seventh-day Adventists materials also, as I have over 5TB of information uploaded to various Internet Archive accounts (as for instance, one of them - Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Texts, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine ) , and in other media storage places, for discussion, &c.

Please, feel free to consider that link, as it contains all kinds of materials from Catholics, to Lutherans, to Methodists, to Baptists (&c.), to science, to history, to mathematics, to music, &c.

As for instance, did you see the citations from Lutherans in the OP linked material in the historical section? Philip Melanchthon [Lutheran scholar] said (feel free to google translate it):

"... [page 224] Philipp Melanchthon (AD 16 February 1497 – AD 19 April 1560), born as Philipp Schwartzerdt (of which name “Melanchton” is simply a Greek translation, with the meaning of “black earth”), was a German associate of Martin Luther, as well as a prominent and influential theologian of the Protestant Reformation.​

​

In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius, editus a Philippo Melanthone, Anno 1543.; pages 122, 136-138, 214-215, 370, 371​

​

“... [Latin; Page 122; Line 9] Eadem de Gog & Magog apud Ezechielem & in Apocalypsi dicuntur. Ezechiel ait, God & Magog, factis ingentibus uastationibus, tandem in montibus Israel perituros esse.​

​

Esti de iudicio ultimo Christi intelligi potest, tamen arbitror significari praelia quae piis erunt in hac ultima mundi senecta cum Turcis, qui uincentur in montibus Israel, id est, seu in locis ecclesiae in qua uere sonat Euangelium, uel a populus uere inuocantibus deum in fide filii eius Iesu Christi. Non enim uincetur Turcae nisi per filium dei dimicantem pro sua ecclesia, ut infra clare inquit Daniel. capite 12. Stabit Michael, id est, Christus dux magnus pro filiis populi. Sed & apud Daniele & apud Ezechielem magne uastationes denunciantur, quas ut deus mitiget, toto pectore petamus. ...”- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

​

“... [Latin; Page 136; Line 18] PORRO hic locus admoneat nos de praesentia Christi, quod uidelicet filius dei semper assuerit patribus quodque vere nunc quoque ecclesiae adsit, exaudiat & gubernet inuocantes ipsum, sicut dicit in Euangelio, Ecce, ego uobiscum sum, &c.​

​

Item, Ubicunque duo aut tres congregati sunt in nomine meo, ibi sum in medio eorum. [Page 136-137] Item, Ascendit, ut det dona hominibus, &c.​

​

Gene. 48. inquit Iacob de Christo, Angelus qui eripuit me ex omni malo, benedicat pueris, &c.​

​

Et Ioan.I.dicitur, Omnia per ipsum facta sunt, &c.​

​

Et hic interest colloquio Angelorum apud Danielem.​

​

Et Paulus inquit, Omnes bibebant de spirituali petra eos comitante, petra autem erat Christus.​

​

Sic nos statuere debemus adesse Christum, exaudire, iuuare, & gubernare nos, Idque uocat scriptura regnum Christi. Sed infirmitas humanae mentis, non potest sic intelligere regnum Christi, cogitat de eo, tanquam de absente, non agente aliquid nobiscum. Sed his tenebris humanae rationis repugnandum est, & iuxta testimonia promissionum, & iuxta haec exempla credendum, quod uere adsit nobis, exaudiat, & iuuet inuocantes ipsum.​

​

Haec breuiter adieci de interprete uaticinii, quem uocat Palmoni, id est, admirabilem quendam, sicut alibi Christus uocatur admirabilis consiliarius. [Page 137-138]​

​

Est & illud considerandum, quod adest filius dei, cum sit mentio summae calamitatis, ut significet se in illa ipsa calamitate futurum esse in excubiis, sicut infra inquit, In illo tempore Michael, qui stat pro filiis populi, &c. Haec est magna consolatio, praesertim hoc tempore, scire, quod Christus sit in excubiis pro nobis. ...”- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

​

“... [Latin; Page 214; Line 22] Alii aliter de sententia huius capitis disputant, sed iudico hanc esse simplicissima enarrationem. Adfuit autem bono angel dux Michael, quem cum hic & infra uocet ducem po- [Page 214-215] puli dei, intelligo esse ipsum filium dei, λόγοις, ut a Ioanne nominatur. Hunc ducem & supra scribit interesse colloquio in capite octauo, ubi angelus ab illo domino petit interpretationem uisionis.​

​

Adesse cum & in hoc colloquio, ac Danielis labra attingere, & consternatum recreare, adparet. Semper enim adfuisse filium dei ecclesiae, eamque, defendisse contra furorem diaboli, certum est. Ideo Ioannes inquit, Omnia per ipsum facta sunt. Loquitur enim non tantum de conditione rerum, sed etiam de gloriosis liberationibus ecclesiae. Texit populum in mari rubro, & in deserto, Defendit Iosue, Gedeonem, Samuelem, Davidem, Eliam, Elisaeum, & alios fideles gubernatores sui populi.​

​

Ideo inquit Iacob, Benedicat his pueris angelus, qui me eripuit ex omnibus malis. Haec uerba conueniunt ad filium dei, qui uere liberat ab omnibus malis, uidelicet a peccato, ab ira dei, a morte aeterna, ab insidiis diaboli. Non enim sine caussa nominatim dicitur, ab omnibus malus. Haec gloria non potest tribui ministris angelis, qui etiamsi protegunt corpora piorum, tame nec peccatum nec aeternam mortem tollere possunt. ...”- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

​

“... [Latin; Page 370; Line 11] TERTIA consolatio, quod in his tantis periculis habitura sit ecclesia defensorem filium dei. Ideo hic in textu dicitur, Illo tempore stabit Micael dux magnus pro filiis populi sui.​

​

Hac uoce omnes pii se confirment, quam quidem & Christus ipse nobis inculcat, inquiens, Ego uobiscum sum usque ad consummationem mundi. In tanta dissipatione, in tantis aerumnis, pii uidentur deserti a deo. ...”- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

​

“... [Latin; Page 371; line 9] Dixi autem supra, semper adfuisse filium dei ecclesiae suae. Ideo hic uocatur dux magnus Micael, sic enim nominat filium dei. Adpellatio nota est. Quis sicut deus, id est, quantus est hic, qui est sicut deus, qui est imago aeterni patris, potens, misericors, liberator, uindex. ...” - In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

​

I have other such Lutheran citations, as Hengstenberg, &c. There are also Catholic scholars, Baptist theologians, Methodists, & more in that OP linked source. It is a treasure trove, given to all, including you, dear sister.

 

[BluePrints]

New Age Christianity ...

Not the subject of the OP linked material, or topic, since the original study materials cover not "New Age Christianity", but historical Christianity, and there is given a whole chapter on that, from pages 200-368, beginning with Melito of Sardis (died c. 180) - Melito of Sardis - Wikipedia

invents many doctrines

The devil (through "New Age") cannot truly "invent" anything, but simply goes into the Sanctuary of God (Psa. 77:13), and twists (wrests) some aspect of the truth, and thus brings about a corruption of that truth, generally in two main ditches. Two of the ditches that surround this present OP subject, are:
1. That Michael the Archangel is not Jesus by another title
2. That Michael the Archangel is simply a created being

Both are incorrect, and simply a wresting of the truth, as given in scripture, and as many others have shown by those scriptures in their historical ages.

2Co_2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.​

and works hard to justify them

Not really. Since truth (Deu. 32:4; Psa. 25:10, 119:142,151; Jhn. 14:6, 17:17; 1 Jhn. 5:6, &c.) must be studied carefully, taking dilligence in prayer to God, searching of the scriptures (Jhn. 5:39), "line upon line" (Isa. 28:10,13), comparing spiritual things therein to spiritual things:

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.​

The devil, while searching (Rev. 12:12), rejects God's words, and merely seeks to "wrest" (Psa. 56:5; 2 Pet. 3:16) them to serve his own corrupt purposes. This does not take real effort, but is in truth a lack of effort upon his own part, and the parts of those who merely accept what he has to offer in the place of Christ's (even God's) words on earth. In an earthly example (for instance), following a specific recipe takes mental effort, diligence, careful examination and the following of the rules to receive the desired outcome, but for those whom are too lazy, they just throw things together, not following the recipe exactly, and therefore have not the same cares-taking results as the first attentive student of cookery.

In other words, it is not difficult to fail. That is easy. It is not difficult to fall into error. That is easy. Staying with the truth takes real concentrated effort. Takes real 'work', by God & man in relation to God's work in them.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.​

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

so people will be led away from truth,

The devil, even at the beginning, was 'subtil':

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?​

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:​

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.​

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:​

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

Yet, even then, the devil only told 1/3rd lie, and 2/3rd's truth (in repetition of God):

(1/3rd) Lie:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:​

​

(compare):​

​

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

​

Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.​

(2/3rds) Truth:

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.​

​

(compare):​

​

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.​

​

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:​

Eve, even had before that, added to, and taken away from the word of God, as she was not diligent at that moment:

Truth:​

​

Gen_2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:​

​

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

​

Added to ("neither shall ye touch it"):​

​

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.​

​

Taken away from ("freely", missing):​

​

Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:​

Eve had first wandered away from the side of her husband, just as a church (a woman) can do so from Christ, if not careful.

The Bible describes how people are "led away":

1Co_12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.​

​

2Ti_3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,​

​

2Pe_3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.​

​

Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.​

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:​

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.​

Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.​

Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.​

... to be continued ...

 

[BluePrints]

... continued ...

Angel worship is among them.

It is not 'worshipping of angels' that is bad, but the context is about the incorrectness of 'worshipping of [created, finite] angels' (such as men and heavenly unfallen or fallen, hosts):

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.​

​

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.​

​

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:​

​

Col_2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,​

The "worshipping of [never-Created, ever-Existing / eternal Deity] angels", such as the Son and Holy Ghost / Spirit is not in question by Paul, since he understood the difference between the eternally never-Created, ever-existing / eternal Deity] and those created finite 'angels' [such as men and heavenly unfallen or fallen, hosts]:

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:​

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.​

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.​

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.​

See Hebrews for similar understanding:

[never-Created, ever-Existing / eternal Deity] Angel of the LORD (Michael the archangle), highest messenger of the Father, is Jesus (Exo. 3:2,4; Zec. 3:1-2; Rev. 10:1; and also the Holy Ghost / Spirit as well; Rev. 18:1)

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,​

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;​

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;​

​

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.​

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.​

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:​

Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;​

Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

Notice the word "fellows", the fellow messengers (office, not nature).

those created finite 'angels' [such as men and heavenly unfallen or fallen, hosts]

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?​

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.​

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

​

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?​

Thus it is created angel (man or created angelic host, fallen or unfallen) worship that is bad:

Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.​

Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.​

​

Rev_19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.​

Rev_22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.​

It is never wrong to worship the Angel of the LORD (Michael the archangel), since it is just an office of the Son / Jesus, as Highest Messenger for the Father (and neither wrong to do the same for the Holy Ghost / Spirit):

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.​

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.​

Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.​

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.​

​

Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?​

Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?​

Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.​

​

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God.​

​

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.​

 

[Frankj]

... continued ...

It is not 'worshipping of angels' that is bad, but the context is about the incorrectness of 'worshipping of [created, finite] angels' (such as men and heavenly unfallen or fallen, hosts):

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.​

​

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.​

​

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:​

​

Col_2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,​

The "worshipping of [never-Created, ever-Existing / eternal Deity] angels", such as the Son and Holy Ghost / Spirit is not in question by Paul, since he understood the difference between the eternally never-Created, ever-existing / eternal Deity] and those created finite 'angels' [such as men and heavenly unfallen or fallen, hosts]:

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:​

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.​

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.​

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.​

See Hebrews for similar understanding:

[never-Created, ever-Existing / eternal Deity] Angel of the LORD (Michael the archangle), highest messenger of the Father, is Jesus (Exo. 3:2,4; Zec. 3:1-2; Rev. 10:1; and also the Holy Ghost / Spirit as well; Rev. 18:1)

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,​

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;​

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;​

​

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.​

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.​

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:​

Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;​

Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

Notice the word "fellows", the fellow messengers (office, not nature).

those created finite 'angels' [such as men and heavenly unfallen or fallen, hosts]

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?​

Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.​

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.​

​

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?​

Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?​

Thus it is created angel (man or created angelic host, fallen or unfallen) worship that is bad:

Act 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.​

Act 10:26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.​

​

Rev_19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.​

Rev_22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.​

It is never wrong to worship the Angel of the LORD (Michael the archangel), since it is just an office of the Son / Jesus, as Highest Messenger for the Father (and neither wrong to do the same for the Holy Ghost / Spirit):

Exo 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.​

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.​

Exo 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.​

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.​

​

Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?​

Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?​

Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.​

​

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My Lord and my God.​

​

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.​

Do you not have the confidence in your position to just clearly state what they are and give a simple summation of them for others to consider, as I did?

Everything is not a proposition of Wittgenstein, not should it be.

 

[BluePrints]

Do you not have the confidence in your position to just clearly state what they are ...

I am at a loss as to what you think I am doing in my responses if you think that I do "not have the confidence" "in [my] position to just clearly state" them. Please be more explicit in what you think, along with demonstration in evidence, that I am doing contrary to that exact thing? Otherwise, I am not inclined to your personal opinion on the matter, we being at total odds on that point.

and give a simple summation of them for others to consider, as I did?

I have provided, on numerous occasions such "simple summation" of the position, beginning with the OP linked material itself. Even the Title of the material, demonstrates, the simple position.

"wine" in scripture, does not always mean 'of the alcoholic variety'. Even the word "wine" itself doesn't etymologically mean 'alcohol', but simply means "[juice] of the vine". That's it.

Everything is not a proposition of Wittgenstein, not should it be.

I have no idea who that person is, nor really care all that much, as it has nothing to do with the OP material, and subject on "wine" in the Bible. If you think otherwise, please consider detailing that connection. Thank you.

 

[Frankj]

I have no idea who that person is, nor really care all that much, as it has nothing to do with the OP material, and subject on "wine" in the Bible. If you think otherwise, please consider detailing that connection. Thank you.

So next time you talk about logic and fallacy I will understand you have no education in philosophy and should it be recognized as such.

 

[BluePrints]

So next time you talk about logic and fallacy I will understand you have no education in philosophy and should it be recognized as such.

You think logic, philosophy or education originate in a man? Hmmm, interesting.

 

[Frankj]

"wine" in scripture, does not always mean 'of the alcoholic variety'. Even the word "wine" itself doesn't etymologically mean 'alcohol', but simply means "[juice] of the vine". That's it.

When talking of wine the beverage there is new wine and old wine (generally any wine not specifically mentioned as new wine).

I know of no other examples than this, and Jesus did tell of putting new wine in old wineskins because it would cause them to burst (fermentation of the grape juice building up pressure as it transformed to wine).

When Jesus transformed water to wine when the host of a wedding ran out of it and knew it would end the celebration, do you really believe everyone there was drinking fresh grape juice and it would ruin the party and the hosts' reputation if they ran out? You might consider reading John 2, 1-10 before answering.

 

[Frankj]

You think logic, philosophy or education originate in a man? Hmmm, interesting.

Well, this should be fun: Tell me where they do and the stated rules of them.

 

[BluePrints]

Well, this should be fun: Tell me where they do and the stated rules of them.

From God, in scripture of course!

My question in return is, Why are you not discussing the facts of the OP linked material and position?

 

[BluePrints]

When talking of wine the beverage there is new wine and old wine (generally any wine not specifically mentioned as new wine).

The "new wine" is defined in scripture, as for instance:

Neh_10:39 For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God.​

​

Neh_13:5 And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded to be given to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.​

​

Neh_13:12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries.​

​

Pro_3:10 So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.​

​

Isa_65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.​

​

Hos 9:2 The floor and the winepress shall not feed them, and the new wine shall fail in her.​

​

Joe_3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.​

​

Hag_1:11 And I called for a drought upon the land, and upon the mountains, and upon the corn, and upon the new wine, and upon the oil, and upon that which the ground bringeth forth, and upon men, and upon cattle, and upon all the labour of the hands.​

​

Zec_9:17 For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.​

There is the preservation of the "new wine" into the "treasuries", the "chambers" of the Sanctuary, &c., as mentioned previously for the year. For that whole year it is the "new wine". This "new wine" is preserved, and once the year changes, to another, it (that "new wine" that was still under storage,) then simply becomes the 'old', as that new years harvest becomes the "new wine" that is then stored and preserved. The "new wine" and the 'old' has nothing to do with alcoholic content. It has to do with the change over of the new harvests production.

I know of no other examples than this

Perhaps you may reconsider the verses above, and come to a greater understanding.

, and Jesus did tell of putting new wine in old wineskins because it would cause them to burst (fermentation of the grape juice building up pressure as it transformed to wine).

Yes, as stated before, any "new wine" that is not under preservation in the places of storage, such as a simple wine bag (which is exposed to heat, and daily use, not for long term storage) gives off gases, and eventually ferments, as was in the case with Noah. The fermentation snuck up on him, and "bit" him as a serpent. This process, under sin in a fallen world, is not in question.

When Jesus transformed water to wine

As a grapevine (Jesus = the vine; Jhn. 15:5, being 'de-vine') does, as it is merely a physical example of Jesus Himself, since all of creation reflects its Creator in some fashion.

Job 12:7 But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:​

Job 12:8 Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.​

Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?​

when the host of a wedding ran out of it

They ran out of the 'old' stored wine (juice of the grape that was in storage the previous year).

and knew it would end the celebration, do you really believe everyone there was drinking fresh grape juice

They were drinking the stored grape juice from the previous harvest, which when brought out of storage (in certain storing methods), is often reconstituted with water, which weakens its flavours (Isa. 1:22), or if stored as whole grapes, crushed, but will have lost some flavour due to long term storage.

and it would ruin the party and the hosts' reputation if they ran out?

Yes. It was always the responsibility of the host/s of the wedding to provide for the guests in the feast. To run out, would be looked upon as an irresponsibility to care for the needs of an invited guest. The guests came at the request of the host, and some from a greater distance than others. It would also be looked upon as perhaps disfavour by God, in that the blessing was cut short.

Isa_65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.​

You might consider reading John 2, 1-10 before answering.

That you honestly (I assume in charity, 1 Cor. 13) think I have not read Jhn. 2 (even 1-10), in the light of the OP linked materials, and the discussion about the wedding of Cana, tells me something of your heart (for out of the mind the mouth speaks, and the fingers write, as scripture says). What I see there, plainly given in the written response, I am choosing overlook.

 

[BluePrints]

Now, back to Michael the archangel is another designation for the Son (Jesus), and for a continued discussion on the "wine" of the Bible, see - What does the Bible say about "wine"? Are Christians to drink it?

Michael the archangel means:

"... [page 3] the word “Michael” is found in both the Hebrew OT texts (Num. 13:13; 1 Chr. 5:13-14 (2), 6:40, 7:3, 8:16, 12:20, 27:18; 2 Chr. 21:2; Ezr. 8:8; Dan. 10:13,21, 12:1 KJB), listed as Strong’s Concordance “H4317”, stemming from three Hebrew words; [1] “H4310” (“מִי”, “mı̂y”), with the meaning of “who”, [2] “H3588” (“כִּי”, “kı̂y”), with the meaning of “therefore”, & [3] “H410” (“אֵל”, “'êl”), with the meaning of “God”, in the form of a question, “Who is like unto God?”, as well as in the koine Greek NT texts (Jud. 1:9; Rev. 12:7 KJB), listed as Strong’s Concordance “G3414” (“Μιχαήλ”, “Michael”). ..." - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

​

"... [page 12] The word “archangel”, from the koine Greek, “ἀρχάγγελος”, is only found twice in scripture, and then only in the NT texts (1 Thes. 4:16; Jud. 1:9 KJB). Archangel is a compound word, made up of two words, “arch” and “angel”, stemming from the koine Greek words G757, “ἄρχω”, “archō”, with the meaning of “to be first (in political rank or power): - reign (rule) over” (Strong’s E-Sword edition) and G32, “ἄγγελος”, “angelos”, with the meaning of “a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God” (Strong’s E-Sword edition), which latter word is a translation of the Hebrew H4397, “מלאך”, “mal'âk” (and see also the Syriack H4398), which means “... to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.” (Strong’s E-Sword edition). ..." - Michael The Archangel Who Is Like Unto God The Highest Messenger (BOOK) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive​

 

[Lamb]

No sister. I came to discuss scripture, history, doctrine, theology, practices, learn more in depth of certain differing positions, have fellowship in study, be edified, encouraged, be loved. The materials are simply good resources to begin such discussions. I can use non-Seventh-day Adventists materials also, as I have over 5TB of information uploaded to various Internet Archive accounts (as for instance, one of them - Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Texts, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine ) , and in other media storage places, for discussion, &c.

Please, feel free to consider that link, as it contains all kinds of materials from Catholics, to Lutherans, to Methodists, to Baptists (&c.), to science, to history, to mathematics, to music, &c.

As for instance, did you see the citations from Lutherans in the OP linked material in the historical section? Philip Melanchthon [Lutheran scholar] said (feel free to google translate it):

"... [page 224] Philipp Melanchthon (AD 16 February 1497 – AD 19 April 1560), born as Philipp Schwartzerdt (of which name “Melanchton” is simply a Greek translation, with the meaning of “black earth”), was a German associate of Martin Luther, as well as a prominent and influential theologian of the Protestant Reformation.​

​

In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius, editus a Philippo Melanthone, Anno 1543.; pages 122, 136-138, 214-215, 370, 371​

​

“... [Latin; Page 122; Line 9] Eadem de Gog & Magog apud Ezechielem & in Apocalypsi dicuntur. Ezechiel ait, God & Magog, factis ingentibus uastationibus, tandem in montibus Israel perituros esse.​

​

Esti de iudicio ultimo Christi intelligi potest, tamen arbitror significari praelia quae piis erunt in hac ultima mundi senecta cum Turcis, qui uincentur in montibus Israel, id est, seu in locis ecclesiae in qua uere sonat Euangelium, uel a populus uere inuocantibus deum in fide filii eius Iesu Christi. Non enim uincetur Turcae nisi per filium dei dimicantem pro sua ecclesia, ut infra clare inquit Daniel. capite 12. Stabit Michael, id est, Christus dux magnus pro filiis populi. Sed & apud Daniele & apud Ezechielem magne uastationes denunciantur, quas ut deus mitiget, toto pectore petamus. ...”- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

​

“... [Latin; Page 136; Line 18] PORRO hic locus admoneat nos de praesentia Christi, quod uidelicet filius dei semper assuerit patribus quodque vere nunc quoque ecclesiae adsit, exaudiat & gubernet inuocantes ipsum, sicut dicit in Euangelio, Ecce, ego uobiscum sum, &c.​

​

Item, Ubicunque duo aut tres congregati sunt in nomine meo, ibi sum in medio eorum. [Page 136-137] Item, Ascendit, ut det dona hominibus, &c.​

​

Gene. 48. inquit Iacob de Christo, Angelus qui eripuit me ex omni malo, benedicat pueris, &c.​

​

Et Ioan.I.dicitur, Omnia per ipsum facta sunt, &c.​

​

Et hic interest colloquio Angelorum apud Danielem.​

​

Et Paulus inquit, Omnes bibebant de spirituali petra eos comitante, petra autem erat Christus.​

​

Sic nos statuere debemus adesse Christum, exaudire, iuuare, & gubernare nos, Idque uocat scriptura regnum Christi. Sed infirmitas humanae mentis, non potest sic intelligere regnum Christi, cogitat de eo, tanquam de absente, non agente aliquid nobiscum. Sed his tenebris humanae rationis repugnandum est, & iuxta testimonia promissionum, & iuxta haec exempla credendum, quod uere adsit nobis, exaudiat, & iuuet inuocantes ipsum.​

​

Haec breuiter adieci de interprete uaticinii, quem uocat Palmoni, id est, admirabilem quendam, sicut alibi Christus uocatur admirabilis consiliarius. [Page 137-138]​

​

Est & illud considerandum, quod adest filius dei, cum sit mentio summae calamitatis, ut significet se in illa ipsa calamitate futurum esse in excubiis, sicut infra inquit, In illo tempore Michael, qui stat pro filiis populi, &c. Haec est magna consolatio, praesertim hoc tempore, scire, quod Christus sit in excubiis pro nobis. ...”- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

​

“... [Latin; Page 214; Line 22] Alii aliter de sententia huius capitis disputant, sed iudico hanc esse simplicissima enarrationem. Adfuit autem bono angel dux Michael, quem cum hic & infra uocet ducem po- [Page 214-215] puli dei, intelligo esse ipsum filium dei, λόγοις, ut a Ioanne nominatur. Hunc ducem & supra scribit interesse colloquio in capite octauo, ubi angelus ab illo domino petit interpretationem uisionis.​

​

Adesse cum & in hoc colloquio, ac Danielis labra attingere, & consternatum recreare, adparet. Semper enim adfuisse filium dei ecclesiae, eamque, defendisse contra furorem diaboli, certum est. Ideo Ioannes inquit, Omnia per ipsum facta sunt. Loquitur enim non tantum de conditione rerum, sed etiam de gloriosis liberationibus ecclesiae. Texit populum in mari rubro, & in deserto, Defendit Iosue, Gedeonem, Samuelem, Davidem, Eliam, Elisaeum, & alios fideles gubernatores sui populi.​

​

Ideo inquit Iacob, Benedicat his pueris angelus, qui me eripuit ex omnibus malis. Haec uerba conueniunt ad filium dei, qui uere liberat ab omnibus malis, uidelicet a peccato, ab ira dei, a morte aeterna, ab insidiis diaboli. Non enim sine caussa nominatim dicitur, ab omnibus malus. Haec gloria non potest tribui ministris angelis, qui etiamsi protegunt corpora piorum, tame nec peccatum nec aeternam mortem tollere possunt. ...”- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

​

“... [Latin; Page 370; Line 11] TERTIA consolatio, quod in his tantis periculis habitura sit ecclesia defensorem filium dei. Ideo hic in textu dicitur, Illo tempore stabit Micael dux magnus pro filiis populi sui.​

​

Hac uoce omnes pii se confirment, quam quidem & Christus ipse nobis inculcat, inquiens, Ego uobiscum sum usque ad consummationem mundi. In tanta dissipatione, in tantis aerumnis, pii uidentur deserti a deo. ...”- In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

​

“... [Latin; Page 371; line 9] Dixi autem supra, semper adfuisse filium dei ecclesiae suae. Ideo hic uocatur dux magnus Micael, sic enim nominat filium dei. Adpellatio nota est. Quis sicut deus, id est, quantus est hic, qui est sicut deus, qui est imago aeterni patris, potens, misericors, liberator, uindex. ...” - In Danielem Prophetam Commentarius​

​

I have other such Lutheran citations, as Hengstenberg, &c. There are also Catholic scholars, Baptist theologians, Methodists, & more in that OP linked source. It is a treasure trove, given to all, including you, dear sister.

I can almost guarantee you that members aren't clicking on your links, and when you link your own personal resources (even when it's mixed in sometimes with others) it comes across as spammy. Just FYI.

 

[BluePrints]

I can almost guarantee you that members aren't clicking on your links, and when you link your own personal resources (even when it's mixed in sometimes with others) it comes across as spammy. Just FYI.

That's fine sister, it's no big deal if people do not avail themselves of the links directly. The links are for the direct source material from which a quotation, or reference, is coming from (so, for instance if a quotation or reference is coming from page 3, then the link takes one directly to that page so that the reader may easily find it for themselves as they need), so to be as clear and transparent as possible. Even in the sources, are other sources which are given in such a manner, so that anyone (in this digital age) can easily find and access where said quotation or reference is coming from. Even the quotations from the scripture are given (generally in brackets), so that any may have quick access to that location in scripture to read for themselves. In most of my responses, online, this is the way I operate, as in the past (on other media platforms, forums, &c.) I have been accused by others (none here in this forum that I am aware of) of 'making stuff up', and so I have come to simply present the source material by page number, location, and entire book title so that such accusations are reduced. This practice has helped in reducing such baseless accusations, and been a blessing to others looking for such quotations / references. Another reason that the research is provided in such a way, as in the past (years ago), I used to merely give a quotation without first checking the source material, and simply believed what others have said, or presented in their own responses, materials, &c., and have been embarrassed on one or two occasions, because a source I had borrowed from others was 2nd or 3rd hand repeated, and is incorrect (telephone game) from one historian to another, or from religious theologian to another, or from one translation to another. I had then vowed back then to not ever do that again, and always go to the primary source, in the original languages where possible, and directly provide the material / evidence / research in question with direct links to those materials (even though the internet is an ever-shifting mass, and sometimes the wayback machine is needful), so that any may have quick access to the material.

I have also had to contact various religious and secular libraries about certain sources and quotations, and even individual researchers (like myself), and had to have them re-verify the source material under examination. On several occasions (and I may provide examples as needful), those libraries and individuals had to correct their own material, or go find their own lost / misplaced material, by my simply asking them about a certain thing.

For instance, I have found some theologians, and representatives of certain religious orders (such as say, Catholicism), say that 'the Pope said ... such and such', and I have had to ask them for the source materials, and on occasion they have had to withdraw their own claim, as such a quotation doesn't actually exist, or it came from some 3rd hand summation in a newspaper, and so I do not desire to make the same mistake, on such, or any others. This is one of the primary reasons I provided the linked materials on anything.

So, on the subject of Michael the archangel, in the OP linked source, and many links to the direct sources cited themselves, most of which are non-Seventh-day Adventist sources. This method of so reporting on the sources is not meant to be "spammy"; it is truly meant to be open and transparent. I hope that this explanation provides some better understanding of my responses and methods.

 

[Frankj]

Michael is an angel, a command level archangel set in rank above other angels, one of numerous heavenly beings ranging from Angels to Seraphim that were created by God and are below him, Jesus is not an angel but a person of the Triune God who is the creator.

Implying that Jesus and Michael are the same is unsound doctrine, a false teaching that stands against God by distorting and diminishing what he is.

It is unwise to think this falsity is a valid doctrine, and even more unwise to teach it and try to spread it to others which is rebellion against God.