Is penance biblical?

[Stephen]

Profaning the body and blood would only be done by someone without faith. Taking in an unworthy manner is someone who denies Real Presence.

That's an assumption I disagree with.

Jesus took the punishment for your sin so that when you die you receive eternal life. You might receive earthly consequences but that is not punishment from God since Jesus already died for those sins.

Where is justice since Jesus took the punishment that should have been yours? Are you seriously asking that? Jesus suffered greatly for your sins. The justice is that someone stronger than you could bear to tolerate that on the cross and that your sins are atoned for. That's justice.

If Jesus took the punishment that should have been mine then four issues arise:

1. The punishment for (serious) sin is eternal separation from God – but Jesus is not eternally separated from God

2. God would be punishing an innocent person for the sins of another. Where is the justice in that?

3. If the debt has been paid then no-one can be condemned for sin since then God would be taking double payment for the same debt. Where is the justice in that?

4. There is no need for God’s forgiveness since the debt has been paid. Forgiveness implies reduction or “letting off” of some or all the debt. Jesus gives us a teaching on forgiveness in Mt 18:23-35. A servant owes a huge debt to his master. The master forgives him the debt. No-one paid it for him.

Doing things that you list in post #33 such as repaying when you stole does not mean you're making a satisfaction to God for your sin. It means you're showing that you love God and your neighbor by making amends and hopefully your neighbor will forgive you.

I wrote:

We are called to repent of our sins and we do this not just mentally but sometimes express it in our bodies by acts of penitence. This is biblical, the most explicit being fasting. There are many examples of this in the scriptures (e.g., Lk 2:37). Jesus said "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites….” (Mt 6:16). Note he said when you fast not if you fast.

Jesus also said "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” (Mt 16:24). We deny ourselves because we need to learn to conquer our desires. Paul says “Put to death therefore what is earthly in you” (Col 3:5).

But more than just simple denial sometimes it is good to be more actively penitential. Paul said “I pommel my body and subdue it” (1Cor 9:27) and “I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church” (Col 1:24). Penitential acts are part of what we do to configure ourselves to Christ who suffered for us.

That is nothing to do with paying stolen money and hoping my neighbour will forgive me.

 

[Lamb]

That's an assumption I disagree with.


If Jesus took the punishment that should have been mine then four issues arise:

1. The punishment for (serious) sin is eternal separation from God – but Jesus is not eternally separated from God

2. God would be punishing an innocent person for the sins of another. Where is the justice in that?

3. If the debt has been paid then no-one can be condemned for sin since then God would be taking double payment for the same debt. Where is the justice in that?

4. There is no need for God’s forgiveness since the debt has been paid. Forgiveness implies reduction or “letting off” of some or all the debt. Jesus gives us a teaching on forgiveness in Mt 18:23-35. A servant owes a huge debt to his master. The master forgives him the debt. No-one paid it for him.




I wrote:

That is nothing to do with paying stolen money and hoping my neighbour will forgive me.

1. The punishment for (serious) sin is eternal separation from God – but Jesus is not eternally separated from God

Jesus is God and God has no sin, yet He took our sins upon Him to the cross so atonement could be made. Do you disagree that Jesus took our sins to the cross? 1 Peter 2:24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”


2. God would be punishing an innocent person for the sins of another. Where is the justice in that?

God took the punishment Himself for our sins. The justice is that sin was atoned for by blood and it had to be done by a pure lamb, which was Jesus the Christ. None of us could be perfect enough to satisfy the conditions God required. Romans 3:26 “he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus”


3. If the debt has been paid then no-one can be condemned for sin since then God would be taking double payment for the same debt. Where is the justice in that?

I'm answering 3 and 4 together:

The debt has been paid and yet those who reject the Savior, faith in Him and His forgiveness, then they don't receive it when they die.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Hebrews 3:19 So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

It all comes down to the blood:

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." KJV

 

[Stephen]

1. The punishment for (serious) sin is eternal separation from God – but Jesus is not eternally separated from God

Jesus is God and God has no sin, yet He took our sins upon Him to the cross so atonement could be made.

No he didn't otherwise he would be punished by eternal separation from God. That is the punishment for (serious) sin.

Do you disagree that Jesus took our sins to the cross? 1 Peter 2:24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”

It depends what Peter meant by "bore our sins". It doesn't mean he took our sins as his own.

In the OT, when someone sinned they went to a priest to make atonement. When a priest made the atonement sacrifice for someone's sins, the priest "bearing iniquity" does not mean the priest personally took a persons sins upon himself. It meant the priest took responsibility for making atonement as required.

"Now Moses diligently inquired about the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it was burned! And he was angry with Elea′zar and Ith′amar, the sons of Aaron who were left, saying, “Why have you not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, since it is a thing most holy and has been given to you that you may bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord?" (Lev 10:16-17)

The priest bearing iniquity (sins) didn't mean the priest became guilty of the persons sins. Nor was the priest punished for the persons sins. There are more examples of this in Ex 28:36-38 and Num 18:1-23.

Jesus was not guilty in our place. "bearing our sins" means he took responsibility for making atonement. The Greek anaphero (Strong 399) means "to carry up".

Strong
Definition: to carry up, lead up
Usage: (a) I carry up, lead up, (b) I offer up (on a high altar) as a sacrifice, offer up to God on high.

It's the same word used in these verses:
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27)

Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. (Heb 13:15)
Also James 2:21 & 1Pet 2:5

Jesus took our sins with him to the cross. He sacrificed himself on the cross and then took that sacrifice to heaven to make an offering of his blood as atonement.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27).

he [Christ]entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Heb 9:12)

2. God would be punishing an innocent person for the sins of another. Where is the justice in that?
God took the punishment Himself for our sins. The justice is that sin was atoned for by blood and it had to be done by a pure lamb, which was Jesus the Christ. None of us could be perfect enough to satisfy the conditions God required. Romans 3:26 “he himself is righteous and that he justifies the one who has faith in Jesus”

Yes, sin was atoned by the blood of Jesus and he justifies us but that is nothing to do with the justice of punishing an innocent person for the sins of another.

justice
n noun
1 just behaviour or treatment. Øthe quality of being just.

just
n adjective morally right and fair.

That is different to justify
justify
n verb (justifies, justifying, justified)
1 prove to be right or reasonable. Øbe a good reason for.
2 Theology declare or make righteous in the sight of God.

3. If the debt has been paid then no-one can be condemned for sin since then God would be taking double payment for the same debt. Where is the justice in that?

I'm answering 3 and 4 together:

The debt has been paid and yet those who reject the Savior, faith in Him and His forgiveness, then they don't receive it when they die.
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Hebrews 3:19 So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You have answered neither point 3 nor point 4. You have just evaded them.
You say
The debt has been paid and yet those who reject the Savior, faith in Him and His forgiveness, then they don't receive it when they die.
If the debt has been paid then it has not been forgiven. The two are exclusive.

As I said
If the debt has been paid then no-one can be condemned for sin since then God would be taking double payment for the same debt.

And
There is no need for God’s forgiveness since the debt has been paid. Forgiveness implies reduction or “letting off” of some or all the debt. Jesus gives us a teaching on forgiveness in Mt 18:23-35. A servant owes a huge debt to his master. The master forgives him the debt. No-one paid it for him.

 

[Lamb]

Yes, sin was atoned by the blood of Jesus and he justifies us

If the debt has been paid then it has not been forgiven. The two are exclusive.

As I said
If the debt has been paid then no-one can be condemned for sin since then God would be taking double payment for the same debt.

And
There is no need for God’s forgiveness since the debt has been paid. Forgiveness implies reduction or “letting off” of some or all the debt. Jesus gives us a teaching on forgiveness in Mt 18:23-35. A servant owes a huge debt to his master. The master forgives him the debt. No-one paid it for him.

Justification is a legal term. You admit above that He justifies us. Good.

A debt paid is no more. In other words, that debt has been forgiven.

We owed a debt to God and Jesus paid for it by His blood. Not by our blood. Blood was necessary for the debt to be paid...hence it was forgiven by Christ. You don't owe God. Just believe.

 

[Stephen]

Justification is a legal term. You admit above that He justifies us. Good.

I have never denied it.

A debt paid is no more. In other words, that debt has been forgiven.

We owed a debt to God and Jesus paid for it by His blood. Not by our blood. Blood was necessary for the debt to be paid...hence it was forgiven by Christ. You don't owe God. Just believe.

No, if a debt is paid it is not forgiven. It is paid. Forgiveness means letting off the debt
Jesus gives us a teaching on debt and forgiveness in Mt 18:23-35
23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.
24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents;
25 and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’
27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.
Who paid off the servants debt?
No-one. The debt was not paid.
The master forgave the debt.

28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’
29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’
30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt.
31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place.
32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me;
33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’
34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers till he should pay all his debt.
You see no-one paid the debt and the master withdrew his forgiveness and demanded the servant paid the debt.

35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.
Jesus is teaching about the Father's forgiveness.
The Father will remit the punishment we are due, but only if we do the same for others, just as Jesus taught us in the Lord's prayer:
And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; (Mt 6:12).

And as I have said before, and you ignore:
To punish an innocent persons for the faults of another would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?
To punish two people for the fault of one of them would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?

Jesus did not pay our debt.
That is why we ask God to forgive us, to remit the punishment due to us.

 

[Lamb]

I have never denied it.


No, if a debt is paid it is not forgiven. It is paid. Forgiveness means letting off the debt
Jesus gives us a teaching on debt and forgiveness in Mt 18:23-35
23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.
24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents;
25 and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’
27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.
Who paid off the servants debt?
No-one. The debt was not paid.
The master forgave the debt.

28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’
29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’
30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt.
31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place.
32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me;
33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’
34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers till he should pay all his debt.
You see no-one paid the debt and the master withdrew his forgiveness and demanded the servant paid the debt.

35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.
Jesus is teaching about the Father's forgiveness.
The Father will remit the punishment we are due, but only if we do the same for others, just as Jesus taught us in the Lord's prayer:
And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; (Mt 6:12).

And as I have said before, and you ignore:
To punish an innocent persons for the faults of another would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?
To punish two people for the fault of one of them would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?

Jesus did not pay our debt.
That is why we ask God to forgive us, to remit the punishment due to us.

No, a paid debt is also said to be forgiven. It is no more remembered.

You can't repay God! God does not say that you still have an account with him that needs to be paid, but He does say that you were bought with a price 1 Corinthians 6:20-You were bought with a price.

I am truly astonished that you say that Jesus did not pay your debt! Wow.

Romans 5:8-9 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood,

The price of our sin was that a sacrifice was needed. We don't have to sacrifice ourselves since Jesus did that for us. Are you not redeemed?

 

[Stephen]

No, a paid debt is also said to be forgiven. It is no more remembered.

I gave you a biblical example. You just give me your opinion.
Show me where a debt that is paid is said to be forgiven.

In the secular world we talk about debt forgiveness for heavily indebted poor nations. No-one pays the debt, they are let off, the debt is cancelled..
Nor did anyone pay the debt in the biblical example I gave.

You can't repay God! God does not say that you still have an account with him that needs to be paid, but He does say that you were bought with a price 1 Corinthians 6:20-You were bought with a price.

That doesn't say Jesus was punished instead of us.
You are grasping at straws.

I am truly astonished that you say that Jesus did not pay your debt! Wow.

Romans 5:8-9 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood,

The price of our sin was that a sacrifice was needed. We don't have to sacrifice ourselves since Jesus did that for us. Are you not redeemed?

Yes, Jesus died for us but that doesn't say that he was punished instead of us.
Do you really think the Father punished his son for the sins of another? How grotesque is that!

You seem to be ignoring much of what I present to you.
Here is a reminder:

In the OT, when someone sinned they went to a priest to make atonement. When a priest made the atonement sacrifice for someone's sins, the priest "bearing iniquity" does not mean the priest personally took a persons sins upon himself. It meant the priest took responsibility for making atonement as required.

"Now Moses diligently inquired about the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it was burned! And he was angry with Elea′zar and Ith′amar, the sons of Aaron who were left, saying, “Why have you not eaten the sin offering in the place of the sanctuary, since it is a thing most holy and has been given to you that you may bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord?" (Lev 10:16-17)

The priest bearing iniquity (sins) didn't mean the priest became guilty of the persons sins. Nor was the priest punished for the persons sins. There are more examples of this in Ex 28:36-38 and Num 18:1-23.

Jesus was not guilty in our place. "bearing our sins" means he took responsibility for making atonement. The Greek anaphero (Strong 399) means "to carry up".

Strong
Definition: to carry up, lead up
Usage: (a) I carry up, lead up, (b) I offer up (on a high altar) as a sacrifice, offer up to God on high.

It's the same word used in these verses:
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27)

Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. (Heb 13:15)
Also James 2:21 & 1Pet 2:5

Jesus took our sins with him to the cross. He sacrificed himself on the cross and then took that sacrifice to heaven to make an offering of his blood as atonement.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27).

he [Christ]entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Heb 9:12)

And
To punish an innocent persons for the faults of another would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?
To punish two people for the fault of one of them would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?

Unless you start answering my points this is a very one sided discussion.

 

[Lamb]

I gave you a biblical example. You just give me your opinion.
Show me where a debt that is paid is said to be forgiven.

In the secular world we talk about debt forgiveness for heavily indebted poor nations. No-one pays the debt, they are let off, the debt is cancelled..
Nor did anyone pay the debt in the biblical example I gave.




That doesn't say Jesus was punished instead of us.
You are grasping at straws.




Yes, Jesus died for us but that doesn't say that he was punished instead of us.
Do you really think the Father punished his son for the sins of another? How grotesque is that!

You seem to be ignoring much of what I present to you.
Here is a reminder:

And
To punish an innocent persons for the faults of another would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?
To punish two people for the fault of one of them would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?

Unless you start answering my points this is a very one sided discussion.

Psalm 32:1​

Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

Ephesians 1:7-8​

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence

"redemption through his blood" and "forgiveness of sins"


I am getting the feeling that you see Jesus not as God because you keep separating Him. We believe in ONE God. He came to earth in form of man, lived the perfect life we cannot, died on the cross and our sins are forgiven. It's just because someone had to pay for the sins. God was the only one who could achieve that, being the perfect lamb. God was the sacrifice out of love for the world. He willingly went to the cross for your sins. That's his justice.

I've answered your questions. It seems you don't see God as one.

 

[Stephen]

Psalm 32:1​

Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

Ephesians 1:7-8​

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence

"redemption through his blood" and "forgiveness of sins"

Forgiveness of sins - yes, absolutely.

I am getting the feeling that you see Jesus not as God because you keep separating Him. We believe in ONE God. He came to earth in form of man, lived the perfect life we cannot, died on the cross and our sins are forgiven. It's just because someone had to pay for the sins. God was the only one who could achieve that, being the perfect lamb. God was the sacrifice out of love for the world. He willingly went to the cross for your sins. That's his justice.

I am a Trinitarian - one God, three persons.
The problem is you are in denial of the meaning of forgiveness.
Yes, Jesus went to the cross as a willing sacrifice. That's what I said in post #44 (which you seem to have ignored).
He wasn't punished by the Father.

Here is one point I made in post #44
Jesus took our sins with him to the cross. He sacrificed himself on the cross and then took that sacrifice to heaven to make an offering of his blood as atonement.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27).

he [Christ]entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Heb 9:12)

I've answered your questions. It seems you don't see God as one.

No you haven't answered my questions - or the points I made. You just either dodge them or ignore them.

 

[Josiah]

.


Who is the Savior? It is the most important question there is. Who?


If you answer Jesus (and thus you are a Christian), then Jesus is the Savior. It all depends on Jesus. Jesus did it. Jesus is the reason. It's all about Jesus. Jesus' heart, Jesus' mercy/grace; Jesus' life, Jesus' death, Jesus' resurrection; Jesus' works, Jesus' obedience. Look to the Cross, not in the mirror. Jesus is not just the possibility-maker, not just an offerer, He is the Savior. Now, we have OTHER responsibilities here AS CHRISTIANS, but this is not HOW we are saved but WHAT we are called to do as saved.

If you answer me (and thus belong to any other religion), then you are the Savior. It depends on you. You did it. You are the reason. It's about YOU. Your heart, your will, your life, your works, your obedience. Look to the mirror, not the Cross. Now Jesus has OTHER responsibilities (very important, absolutely essential) but He saves no one (although He may make that possible), each saves self.


Which is it?

They are mutually-exclusive views; one cannot be both a Christian and a Hindu - looking both to Christ and Self as the Savior.

How you answer this question is critical.... all eternity depends on it.

And there is NO ISSUE in all the universe about which we are to be more clear.




Now.... (Note Stephen and Lamm)


1. Exactly HOW Jesus saves is a debatable issue. Scripture makes it clear that it depends on Jesus, and that His incarnation and perfect live, His death on the Cross and especially His resurrection are ESSENTIAL to this salvation He achieved for us, but less certain is WHY it is. There are several theories (Lamm is expressing the "vicarious atonement" view) but while there clearly is some truth in all the theories, none totally works. So WHY it all depends on Jesus, WHY His life, death and resurrection are essential/critical isn't perfectly clear BUT THAT such is, is.

2. The problem I have with some discussions is that some use it to undermine that Jesus does the saving (HOWEVER he does it... HE!). Sometimes this is motivated by self appointing self to answer questions the Bible does not.... sometimes it's motivated by pride in desiring to give self the credit for heaven.... sometimes it's motivated by a confusion of Justication with Sanctification (how one is born again, how one lives as one born again). On THE issue where Christians should be most clear, some are very muddy. I actually had a Catholic teacher tell me (and this is verbatim!), "Jesus actually saves no one, but makes it possible for each to save themselves" (probably THE most heretical, non-Christian thing I've heard any Christian say - by a Deacon nonetheless). Or a Protestant variation of this, "Jesus OFFERS salvation to everyone, but each has to take it and thus save themselves" (I've never heard any Protestant be so blunt, but that view exists).


Christianity all hinges on ONE point: Who is the Savior? There are two choices: Self or Jesus, trusting in the one in the mirror or the One on the Cross. I believe Satan works overtime to make that as fuzzy, as muddy as possible... as complicated as possible... to raise issues that make it seem hard. But it's not. Are we left with unanswered questions? Yes. Is His love, mercy and grace always logical to us? Nope. But the gift of faith embraces it, not because our brain says it's true but the Holy Spirit reveals it as true.



- Josiah



.

 

[Lamb]

Forgiveness of sins - yes, absolutely.


I am a Trinitarian - one God, three persons.
The problem is you are in denial of the meaning of forgiveness.
Yes, Jesus went to the cross as a willing sacrifice. That's what I said in post #44 (which you seem to have ignored).
He wasn't punished by the Father.

Here is one point I made in post #44
Jesus took our sins with him to the cross. He sacrificed himself on the cross and then took that sacrifice to heaven to make an offering of his blood as atonement.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27).

he [Christ]entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Heb 9:12)



No you haven't answered my questions - or the points I made. You just either dodge them or ignore them.

1. Because Adam fell from sin, a debt was due to God for all of mankind. Do you agree with that? Our debt is sin. "The wages of sin is death."

3. Do you agree that in the Old Testament that the people weren't sacrificed, but that animals were instead?

4. Do you agree that Jesus' blood was shed on the cross?

5. Do you agree that Jesus gave His life as ransom? Mark 10:45, Jesus said, “For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

6. Do you agree that the curse of the law was that the wages of sin is death? And that Jesus redeemed us from that? 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

7. Do you believe Jesus died on the cross? Death is punishment. Do you believe He died?


I haven't dodged your points at all. I've addressed them clearly.

 

[Stephen]

.


Who is the Savior? It is the most important question there is. Who?


If you answer Jesus (and thus you are a Christian), then Jesus is the Savior. It all depends on Jesus. Jesus did it. Jesus is the reason. It's all about Jesus. Jesus' heart, Jesus' mercy/grace; Jesus' life, Jesus' death, Jesus' resurrection; Jesus' works, Jesus' obedience. Look to the Cross, not in the mirror. Jesus is not just the possibility-maker, not just an offerer, He is the Savior. Now, we have OTHER responsibilities here AS CHRISTIANS, but this is not HOW we are saved but WHAT we are called to do as saved.

If you answer me (and thus belong to any other religion), then you are the Savior. It depends on you. You did it. You are the reason. It's about YOU. Your heart, your will, your life, your works, your obedience. Look to the mirror, not the Cross. Now Jesus has OTHER responsibilities (very important, absolutely essential) but He saves no one (although He may make that possible), each saves self.


Which is it?

They are mutually-exclusive views; one cannot be both a Christian and a Hindu - looking both to Christ and Self as the Savior.

How you answer this question is critical.... all eternity depends on it.

And there is NO ISSUE in all the universe about which we are to be more clear.




Now.... (Note Stephen and Lamm)


1. Exactly HOW Jesus saves is a debatable issue. Scripture makes it clear that it depends on Jesus, and that His incarnation and perfect live, His death on the Cross and especially His resurrection are ESSENTIAL to this salvation He achieved for us, but less certain is WHY it is. There are several theories (Lamm is expressing the "vicarious atonement" view) but while there clearly is some truth in all the theories, none totally works. So WHY it all depends on Jesus, WHY His life, death and resurrection are essential/critical isn't perfectly clear BUT THAT such is, is.

2. The problem I have with some discussions is that some use it to undermine that Jesus does the saving (HOWEVER he does it... HE!). Sometimes this is motivated by self appointing self to answer questions the Bible does not.... sometimes it's motivated by pride in desiring to give self the credit for heaven.... sometimes it's motivated by a confusion of Justication with Sanctification (how one is born again, how one lives as one born again). On THE issue where Christians should be most clear, some are very muddy. I actually had a Catholic teacher tell me (and this is verbatim!), "Jesus actually saves no one, but makes it possible for each to save themselves" (probably THE most heretical, non-Christian thing I've heard any Christian say - by a Deacon nonetheless). Or a Protestant variation of this, "Jesus OFFERS salvation to everyone, but each has to take it and thus save themselves" (I've never heard any Protestant be so blunt, but that view exists).


Christianity all hinges on ONE point: Who is the Savior? There are two choices: Self or Jesus, trusting in the one in the mirror or the One on the Cross. I believe Satan works overtime to make that as fuzzy, as muddy as possible... as complicated as possible... to raise issues that make it seem hard. But it's not. Are we left with unanswered questions? Yes. Is His love, mercy and grace always logical to us? Nope. But the gift of faith embraces it, not because our brain says it's true but the Holy Spirit reveals it as true.



- Josiah



.

I agree that Jesus is the Saviour. But that does not exclude us having some participation in his act of saving us, otherwise you take the Calvanist route that God has already made the decision to save us or not before we were even conceived, and there is nothing we can do about that.

BTW I disagree with your labelling Lanmmchen's version as "vicarious atonement". I see it as the "penal atonement"theory.

 

[Stephen]

1. Because Adam fell from sin, a debt was due to God for all of mankind. Do you agree with that? Our debt is sin. "The wages of sin is death."

3. Do you agree that in the Old Testament that the people weren't sacrificed, but that animals were instead?

4. Do you agree that Jesus' blood was shed on the cross?

5. Do you agree that Jesus gave His life as ransom? Mark 10:45, Jesus said, “For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

6. Do you agree that the curse of the law was that the wages of sin is death? And that Jesus redeemed us from that? 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

7. Do you believe Jesus died on the cross? Death is punishment. Do you believe He died?


I haven't dodged your points at all. I've addressed them clearly.

When you answer my questions I will answer yours. You have not answered my points.

 

[Josiah]

I agree that Jesus is the Saviour. But that does not exclude us having some participation in his act of saving us,

When you make up your mind, let us know.


.

 

[Lamb]

When you answer my questions I will answer yours. You have not answered my points.

Are you talking about Adam and how you don't believe you inherited sin from him?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

God is just. He demands that there be blood for sin. You are a descendant of Adam and you are not pure enough to die on the cross. So Jesus did that for you. You can thank Him next time you attend mass.

 

[Stephen]

Are you talking about Adam and how you don't believe you inherited sin from him?

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

God is just. He demands that there be blood for sin. You are a descendant of Adam and you are not pure enough to die on the cross. So Jesus did that for you. You can thank Him next time you attend mass.

When you answer my questions I will answer yours. You have not answered my points.

 

[Stephen]

When you make up your mind, let us know.


.

Make up my mind about what?

 

[Lamb]

When you answer my questions I will answer yours. You have not answered my points.

I'm trying to see where the miscommunication is coming from. Apparently you are talking about something else other than Jesus? Were you talking about Adam and the sin that we inherit from him? I told you I thought I was answering your questions and now you say that I'm not, so it's obvious your question wasn't thoroughly made clear. State it with all the details and not vague items.

 

[Stephen]

I'm trying to see where the miscommunication is coming from. Apparently you are talking about something else other than Jesus? Were you talking about Adam and the sin that we inherit from him?

I never mentioned Adam and Eve. You introduced them

I told you I thought I was answering your questions and now you say that I'm not, so it's obvious your question wasn't thoroughly made clear. State it with all the details and not vague items.

Here is one point I made in post #44
Jesus took our sins with him to the cross. He sacrificed himself on the cross and then took that sacrifice to heaven to make an offering of his blood as atonement.
He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people; he did this once for all when he offered up himself. (Heb 7:27).

he [Christ]entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. (Heb 9:12)
You didn't respond to that.

Then
No, if a debt is paid it is not forgiven. It is paid. Forgiveness means letting off the debt
Jesus gives us a teaching on debt and forgiveness in Mt 18:23-35
23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.
24 When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents;
25 and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’
27 And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.
Who paid off the servants debt?
No-one. The debt was not paid.
The master forgave the debt.

28 But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’
29 So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’
30 He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt.
31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place.
32 Then his lord summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me;
33 and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’
34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers till he should pay all his debt.
You see no-one paid the debt and the master withdrew his forgiveness and demanded the servant paid the debt.

35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.
Jesus is teaching about the Father's forgiveness.
The Father will remit the punishment we are due, but only if we do the same for others, just as Jesus taught us in the Lord's prayer:
And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; (Mt 6:12).

All I got in response to that was this
No, a paid debt is also said to be forgiven. It is no more remembered.
That is untrue and you made no attempt to actually address the example I gave.

Then were these two questions not clear enough>
To punish an innocent persons for the faults of another would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?
To punish two people for the fault of one of them would be unjust. Do you think God is unjust?