Is infant baptism from the Bible?

[Lamb]

Then baptize pets. There is no specific, verbatim prohibition that says “thou shall not baptize pets”.

As for me and my house, we will just stick to doing what God has actually commanded that we should do ... “Repent and be baptized“ (Acts 2) & “Confess and believe” (Romans 10) ... and we will be saved!

Seriously? Are pets in need of a Savior?

Babies are in need of a Savior just like the rest of us. They don't have an automatic IN into heaven as some denominations claim...for if that were true, they would be preaching a different Gospel than "by grace through faith." Right?

God speaks through scripture that "this promise is for you and your children" (baptism and Holy Spirit).

God gives faith to us by His grace. You didn't receive faith because of anything YOU did. So why is it so easy for you to believe that faith comes by His Word at HIS WILL but not by His Word when it's in the waters of baptism?

 

[Lamb]

So do I. As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.

Does God save those that call on His name? ... God says He does.
Does God save those who repent and are baptized? ... God says He does.
Does God save those that Confess and Believe (Romans 10)? ... God says that he does.

Does God save those who do not call upon His name, do not repent, do not confess, do not believe and have never heard the Good News ... all because someone dragged them unwillingly to have water poured on their head before they were cognitively aware of their surroundings? ... God never says that He does.

Does God's Word return to Him empty then? All those things you listed above you think ONLY OLDER PEOPLE can do? How easy is it for God to bring someone to repentance who has committed many sins? And yes, it's God's doing that brings that man around. How easy is it for the Holy Spirit to get that man to confess Jesus is Savior after years of insisting there is no God? How much easier is it for our triune God to work in an infant then to bring that little one to faith for salvation (by grace)?

 

[atpollard]

God speaks through scripture that "this promise is for you and your children" (baptism and Holy Spirit).

That is not “this promise”, rather “this promise” is ... "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” [Act 2:38 NASB]

Remember that “this promise” is also “for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself” but no one claims that your Children were saved when they were baptized as eggs inside their infant mother’s body ... or that the “gift” is transferred from parent to child to grandchild to great-grandchild without each generation being “called to Himself” and “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins”.

 

[Lamb]

That is not “this promise”, rather “this promise” is ... "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” [Act 2:38 NASB]

Remember that “this promise” is also “for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself” but no one claims that your Children were saved when they were baptized as eggs inside their infant mother’s body ... or that the “gift” is transferred from parent to child to grandchild to great-grandchild without each generation being “called to Himself” and “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins”.

Repentance and baptism are both gifts from God. Both by His grace. You can't repent without God first bringing you to it. Just like you can't baptize yourself. "Be Baptized" means something is happening to you. Not just water but God's Word with the water, The Promise is for all...meaning that parents were relieved that their children were included in God's grace.

 

[atpollard]

Does God's Word return to Him empty then? All those things you listed above you think ONLY OLDER PEOPLE can do? How easy is it for God to bring someone to repentance who has committed many sins? And yes, it's God's doing that brings that man around. How easy is it for the Holy Spirit to get that man to confess Jesus is Savior after years of insisting there is no God? How much easier is it for our triune God to work in an infant then to bring that little one to faith for salvation (by grace)?

As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.

 

[Lamb]

As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.
As I have repeatedly stated, the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.

And God says this promise is for you and your children and baptism saves.

 

[atpollard]

Repentance and baptism are both gifts from God. Both by His grace. You can't repent without God first bringing you to it. Just like you can't baptize yourself. "Be Baptized" means something is happening to you. Not just water but God's Word with the water, The Promise is for all...meaning that parents were relieved that their children were included in God's grace.

What is “the promise”?

 

[Josiah]

“this promise” is ... Act 2:38

Here's the verse you are claiming proves that we are forbidden to baptize anyone who has not FIRST adequately proven they have chosen Jesus as their personal savior: Acts 2:38, which reads, "Repent and be baptized...." Your entire apologetic for this new invention of the Anabaptists is the the word "and" (Kai in Greek) MANDATES chronological order, the correct translation is "AFTER THAT." This is entirely false. Your entire apologetic depends on a factual error.


This is what you offer to prove the new Anabaptist tradition of Credobaptism, that FIRST one must adequately prove they have ALREADY chosen Jesus as their personal Savior. But this verse states nothing of the sort, much less mandates that.

The word "kai" is simply THE most generic, general connective word in the entire Greek language. It just means "and." It has NOTHING WHATSOEVR to do with order or sequence or prerequites. "I got up this morning and went to the bathroom and made a pot of coffee" is a correct statement. Delete the word "and" and substitute instead the word "then" and it's a lie, I didn't do them in that order.

There are words (several) in Greek that imply or suggest or mandate ORDER. Not one of those is EVER found in ANY verse that is about baptism. Not once. Not ever. Not once is any word used that even implies order. The consistent word the Holy Spirit inerrantly used is AND. Kai. The word that does NOT imply, suggest or dogmatically MANDATES sequence.

Consider another verse about Baptism. "Go and make disciples of all people baptizing them in the name of the father, son and holy spirit and teaching them to observe all things." So, according to your apologetic.... your dogmatic insistence that the word "AND" dogmatically mandates sequence, then your dogma is that FIRST one must baptize people and only AFTER THAT may you teach ... your dogma must be that it is forbidden to teach before baptism. There are many other examples that show the pure absurdity of your entirely apologetic.

Quote the verse the states this new Anabaptist tradition: "Thou canst NOT baptize any unless and until they hath first adquately proven they hath chosen Jesus as their personal Savior and correctly chanteth the Sinner's Prayer." Where is the prohibition stated?

the question is not what CAN God do, but what does God say that He DOES do.

The question is the Anabaptist tradition you have chosen to defend: Credobaptism, the dogma that it is mandated by Scripture that we are forbidden to baptize any unless and until they have adequately proven they have chosen Jesus as their personal Savior; "credo" = I believe, the receiver must FIRST in chronological time, prove they believe and only AFTER THAT is completed, is some supposed prohibition on baptism lifted. That's one of the 3 Anabaptist traditions/dogmas ...the one you've chosen to support. So, where is this verse or these verses that mandate this sequence, this dogmatic prohibition. this chronological mandate? You suggest it's Acts 2:38 but this juest shows you have no idea what the word "kai" means and that you should be equally forbidding teaching before baptism. Where is the verse that states the prohibition, the prerequiste, the dogmatic chronological mandate that IS this new Anabaptist tradition/dogma, the verse not one Christian noticed for over 1500 years? Quote it.



.

 

[atpollard]

Consider another verse about Baptism. "Go and make disciples of all people baptizing them in the name of the father, son and holy spirit and teaching them to observe all things."

You are missing punctuation. It is a three part command.
1. “Go and make disciples of all people”
2. “baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit“
3. “and teaching them to observe all things”

How does one “go and make” a disciple?
(then we can discuss how to baptize a disciple if you would like).

 

[atpollard]

The question is the Anabaptist tradition you have chosen to defend: Credobaptism, the dogma that it is mandated by Scripture that we are forbidden to baptize any unless and until they have adequately proven they have chosen Jesus as their personal Savior; "credo" = I believe, the receiver must FIRST in chronological time, prove they believe and only AFTER THAT is completed, is some supposed prohibition on baptism lifted.

Interesting that I ask about what God says and you respond with “traditions”. It must be a Lutheran thing. Baptists place Scripture over tradition and God’s word as the final authority. I don’t really defend 16th Century traditions, just the instructions from God which nowhere teach “baptize those that have never heard of Me and they are saved and will repent some day” like the common Lutheran practice suggests.

Peter SAID “Repent and be baptized” ... do both ... and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Sorry, I believe what Peter actually said more than your really old traditions.

 

[Lamb]

What is “the promise”?

These are His promises:

1 Peter 3:20-21. … in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it a few people, eight in all, were saved through water — and this water symbolizes Baptism that now saves you also.

Colossians 2:11-12. In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in Baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Romans 6:3-10. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through Baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

* Note: These passages from Colossians and Romans are summarized well by Dr. Lowell Green: “Baptism is the retroactive participation in the work of Good Friday and Easter Sunday — even better, it is incorporation into the body of the risen and ascended Savior ...”

Galatians 3:27. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Eph. 5:26. Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word.

Titus 3:5. He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Corinthians 12:13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:11. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Acts 22:16. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.

Acts 2:37-39. Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

 

[atpollard]

Here's the verse you are claiming proves that we are forbidden to baptize anyone who has not FIRST adequately proven they have chosen Jesus as their personal savior: Acts 2:38, which reads, "Repent and be baptized...." Your entire apologetic for this new invention of the Anabaptists is the the word "and" (Kai in Greek) MANDATES chronological order, the correct translation is "AFTER THAT." This is entirely false. Your entire apologetic depends on a factual error.

Actually, this is not the basis of Credobaptism. It merely demonstrates that infants have not met the TWO clear conditions outlined by Peter for receiving the Holy Spirit (1. Repent & 2. Be baptized). The core basis for Credobaptism is the evidence in scripture that everyone whose baptism was recorded was a believer at the time of their baptism. There are many examples where God makes a special point of calling out that He had changed their heart before they were baptized. That is why Credobaptists conclude that “baptism” is for “believers” rather than “future believers”. Being able to say “I believe” is just a simple litmus test for a believer.

As far as God saving someone without their saying “I believe”, sure God can. God can also save without needing us to baptize someone in water. Our responsibility is to do what God commands ... “Repent and be baptized” (Acts 2:38) and “confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead” (Romans 10:9), in response to God “making us alive when we were dead” (Eph 2:5).

 

[Lamb]

Interesting that I ask about what God says and you respond with “traditions”. It must be a Lutheran thing. Baptists place Scripture over tradition and God’s word as the final authority. I don’t really defend 16th Century traditions, just the instructions from God which nowhere teach “baptize those that have never heard of Me and they are saved and will repent some day” like the common Lutheran practice suggests.

Peter SAID “Repent and be baptized” ... do both ... and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Sorry, I believe what Peter actually said more than your really old traditions.

Baptism and teaching go hand in hand. Jesus said Go and make disciples...baptizing and teaching...that's because they go hand in hand. When infants are baptized, it is with the pledges from adults to teach them the faith.

 

[Lamb]

Actually, this is not the basis of Credobaptism. It merely demonstrates that infants have not met the TWO clear conditions outlined by Peter for receiving the Holy Spirit (1. Repent & 2. Be baptized). The core basis for Credobaptism is the evidence in scripture that everyone whose baptism was recorded was a believer at the time of their baptism. There are many examples where God makes a special point of calling out that He had changed their heart before they were baptized. That is why Credobaptists conclude that “baptism” is for “believers” rather than “future believers”. Being able to say “I believe” is just a simple litmus test for a believer.

As far as God saving someone without their saying “I believe”, sure God can. God can also save without needing us to baptize someone in water. Our responsibility is to do what God commands ... “Repent and be baptized” (Acts 2:38) and “confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead” (Romans 10:9), in response to God “making us alive when we were dead” (Eph 2:5).

God is the one who gives us faith to believe. Even an adult doesn't believe without God's Word bringing that person to faith "by grace" not by our own efforts.

 

[atpollard]

These are His promises:

These are not “the promise” that Peter said was for “you and your children and those far off”.
Peter cannot have expected those listening to know of scripture that had not yet been written.
So the question remains:

What was ”the promise” that Peter said was for “you and your children and those far off”.

1 Peter 3:20-21. … in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it a few people, eight in all, were saved through water — and this water symbolizes Baptism that now saves you also.

Who got on the ark, those that trusted in God, or sinners that might someday trust in God?

Colossians 2:11-12. In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in Baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Who was “buried with Him in baptism”, those that have faith, or those whose parents had faith in Him?

Romans 6:3-10. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through Baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Are the unsaved “baptized into Christ”? Are all people baptized Lutheran as an infant saved?

Sorry if some of the later quotes made a different point, but I think I have made my point without repeating it for every verse.

 

[atpollard]

God is the one who gives us faith to believe. Even an adult doesn't believe without God's Word bringing that person to faith "by grace" not by our own efforts.

Do you read the word over people in a coma, pour water over their heads to baptize them, and call them saved?
Why or why not? How is that different than an infant?

 

[atpollard]

Baptism and teaching go hand in hand. Jesus said Go and make disciples...baptizing and teaching...that's because they go hand in hand. When infants are baptized, it is with the pledges from adults to teach them the faith.

You meet someone on the street and share the very basics of the gospel. They say they want to learn more.

How do you go about “making them a disciple”?
Do you start by baptizing them and promising to teach them the faith?

 

[Josiah]

Actually, this is not the basis of Credobaptism. It merely demonstrates that infants have not met the TWO clear conditions outlined by Peter for receiving the Holy Spirit (1. Repent & 2. Be baptized).

Actually, it does no such thing. As shown in post 248

The core basis for Credobaptism is the evidence in scripture that everyone whose baptism was recorded was a believer at the time of their baptism.

... so you have not one Scripture that teaches this new Anabaptist tradition you parrot.
Not one Scripture that teaches this mandated, pre-existing prerequiste you now dogmatically impose.


True, MOST (but not all) of the examples of folks being baptized seem to be of folks who were believers. No one denies that. Of course, you cannot show that "everyone" was, as you falsely claim (that's just an outright falsehood) but yeah, it can be shown in most cases.

What I denounce is your amazingly horrible apologetic (since you admit this is all you have). So for you, what is USUALLY done is what we must do, and what is not USUALLY done we can't do. That's the entirety of your support for this new Anabaptist tradition. We can ONLY Baptize believers because it can be shown most of those baptized in the Bible were believers, and conversely, you can forbid baptizing unbelievers because there are no obvious, provable examples of such in the Bible. The whole new dogma rests on that rubric, that apologetic.


Absurd. Silly. It's an argument you yourself repudiate and don't accept or use. After all, here you are posting on the internet. Give me just 2 clear examples in the Bible of Christians posting on the internet. You drive a car, give me 2 clear examples in the Bible of Christians driving cars. Give me the references in the Bible of Christians having youth groups and youth pastors, of churches having pews and powerpoint, of pastors wearing Aloha shirts and jeans, of baptisms in a big tank behind a certain, of celebrating Communion by passing around little plastic cups into which a squirt of Welch's Grape Juice has been supplied and a bowl with a bunch of little cup up pieces of Weber's White Broad to anyone who wishes to eat and drink, of folks giving baptism who are not Hebrews and baptisms further than 100 miles away from the Mediterranian Sea. Let's see if you actually accept your own mandate here: We can't do anything if it's not clearly and consistently done just like that in the Bible, and we can't do anything unless it IS clearly and consistently done in the Bible. You say, THAT is the dogmatic confirmation for this new Anabaptists dogma: It seems most (but can't show all) the Baptisms done in the Bible were by Hebrew men (descendants of Abraham), all outside at rivers never in a tank, all within 100 miles of the Mediterranian Sea and THEREFORE all other practices are dogmatically forbidden. And the same holds for Communion and worship - it's dogmatically forbidden to do it in any way differently than what was always and clearly done in the examples we have in the Bible.

Our responsibility is to do what God commands ... “Repent and be baptized” (Acts 2:38)

.... see post 248. Your entire apologetic is founded on a falsehood. The word is "and" not "then."


Friend, any heretic can prove his point with Scripture if he merely deletes words the Holy Spirit put in the text, then replace them with words that fit his heresy. That's all you are doing. The word is "and" but you effectively change it to "after that" or "then". There are several Greek words that imply or suggest or even mandate order - but those aren't the words in this text (or ANY text concerning Baptism), the word is "and".

“confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead” (Romans 10:9), in response to God “making us alive when we were dead” (Eph 2:5).

Neither of those Scriptures are about baptism, none of them state that you do about some prohibition on baptism.



But at least we've accomplished something: you admit you have no verse that confirms this new Anabaptist tradition/dogma/invention. That's more than we got from Particular/MennoSota. It's just you forbid doing anything unless that exact thing was always done in the Bible.




.

 

[Lamb]

These are not “the promise” that Peter said was for “you and your children and those far off”.
Peter cannot have expected those listening to know of scripture that had not yet been written.
So the question remains:

What was ”the promise” that Peter said was for “you and your children and those far off”.


Who got on the ark, those that trusted in God, or sinners that might someday trust in God?


Who was “buried with Him in baptism”, those that have faith, or those whose parents had faith in Him?


Are the unsaved “baptized into Christ”? Are all people baptized Lutheran as an infant saved?

Sorry if some of the later quotes made a different point, but I think I have made my point without repeating it for every verse.

Those who are baptized will be saved if they have faith when they die. Just like when an adult comes to faith by hearing God's Word, reading the bible, etc...if he has faith when he dies then he will be saved. If any reject the Savior at death, they damn themselves.

 

[Lamb]

You meet someone on the street and share the very basics of the gospel. They say they want to learn more.

How do you go about “making them a disciple”?
Do you start by baptizing them and promising to teach them the faith?

Parents have authority over their children. They do not have authority to have anyone else baptized. I am not sure why you aren't aware of his aspect?