In your opinion, what book of the Bible is Hebrews 11:35b referencing?

[NathanH83]

?

 

[NathanH83]

Anyone?

 

[NathanH83]

 

[Andrew]

The amplified version points to 1 and 2 Kings regarding the first line... and then goes on about some mysterious figures not found in the bible that were apparently "well known" at some point in time.

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11:35 Women received back their dead. This is probably a reference to the raising of the son of the widow of Zarephath (1Ki 17:17–24) and of the Shunammite woman (2Ki 4:32–37). But the author of Hebrews also points out that not all who had faith won victories, at least not in the same hour. tortured This is usually understood to be an allusion to the heroic martyrs of Maccabean times, who were well-known.
-Amplified Study Bible
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[Josiah]

?

Hebrews 11:35 doesn't quote or reference any book. So, my "opinion" is none. There may be a reference to an event but nothing about any book.



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[Andrew]

Hebrews 11:35 doesn't quote or reference any book. So, my "opinion" is none. There may be a reference to an event but nothing about any book.



.

What does it mean to "allude"?

 

[Awaiting Transport]

One must first consider the overall context of the verse, in this case, Hebrews 11, the 'faith chapter'. The entire chapter was written to show the power of faith in God (remember, it was written to Hebrews (Jews) of the day that had not yet believed Jesus was the promised Messiah). Other chapters reference 'a better' sacrifice/covenant/etc all pointing to Jesus as their Messiah.

Hebrews 11:33-36
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

Verses 33-34 clearly show the power of true faith in God Almighty as found in the OT. Verse 35 starts out that way as well with the 2 children being resurrected, but then it transitions to show the negative consequences of that same faith that some suffered, as does verse 36.

It's clearly has application for todays' believers. One need only read/see what's happening in the Middle East and around the world to Christians. Having a reasonably good knowledge of Biblical prophecy, I can say unequivocally that it's only going to get worse. Covid and lock downs are only 'previews' of the 7 year tribulation poised to begin any day now. Only the spiritually blind would fail to realize this.

 

[Josiah]

What does it mean to "allude"?

To not state but perhaps suggest.

What specific BOOK is being "alluded to" in the verse? None. Nothing that remotely suggests the author wishes to HINT AT some specific book without mentioning its moniker. IMO, the author is thinking of some EVENT but nothing that remotely suggests he's thinking of some specific book but for some reason doesn't want to mention its' title.

Anyone can feel someone is ALLUDING to anything by anything since "allude" by definition means to not actually mention it. But in this case, it's an allusion to an assumption since there's zero reason to think what is being alluded to is a specific book.




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[Andrew]

To not state but perhaps suggest.

What specific BOOK is being "alluded to" in the verse? None. Nothing that remotely suggests the author wishes to HINT AT some specific book without mentioning its moniker. IMO, the author is thinking of some EVENT but nothing that remotely suggests he's thinking of some specific book but for some reason doesn't want to mention its' title.

Anyone can feel someone is ALLUDING to anything by anything since "allude" by definition means to not actually mention it. But in this case, it's an allusion to an assumption since there's zero reason to think what is being alluded to is a specific book.




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He is alluding to something that Jews at the time would be familiar with... he is pointing to biblical characters that's for sure

 

[Spindle4]

Quote from the Bible Believer's Commentary on Hebrews 11:35b

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.
Because of their faith in the Lord, some were subjected to cruel torture. If they would have renounced Jehovah, they would have been released; but to them it was better to die and be raised again to heavenly glory than to continue this life as traitors to God. In the time of the Maccabees, a mother and her seven sons were put to death, one after the other, and in sight of each other, by Antiochus Epiphanes. They refused to accept release that they might obtain a better resurrection, that is, better than a mere continuation of life on earth.

Morrison comments:
So this is also a result of faith, not that it brings deliverance to a man, but that sometimes, when deliverance is offered, it gives him a fine courage to refuse it. There are seasons when faith shows itself in taking. There are seasons when it is witnessed in refusing. There is a deliverance that faith embraces. There is a deliverance that faith rejects. They were tortured, not accepting deliverance—that was the sign and seal that they were faithful. There are hours when the strongest proof of faith is the swift rejection of the larger room.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

One need only read/see what's happening in the Middle East and around the world to Christians. Having a reasonably good knowledge of Biblical prophecy, I can say unequivocally that it's only going to get worse. Covid and lock downs are only 'previews' of the 7 year tribulation poised to begin any day now. Only the spiritually blind would fail to realize this.

It very well could get worse. That is what many current events are pointing to. But it does not have to get worse. I suppose there were many times in world history when people were pretty sure a 7-year tribulation period would soon begin. BTW, where in the Bible does it say there is this 7-year tribulation period?

If anything we may be near this event, or in the beginning throes of it:

Revelation 20: 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Spindle4]

BTW, where in the Bible does it say there is this 7-year tribulation period?

Nowhere specifically, but search "7 Year Tribulation Scripture" and your cup will run over with claims and counterclaims.

I take a symbolic approach, that tribulation exists as the consequence of God's Plan to bring everything to Perfect Completion, which the number 7 is representive of throughout the Bible.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Nowhere specifically, but search "7 Year Tribulation Scripture" and your cup will run over with claims and counterclaims.

That seems to be the problem. Claims. Counter claims. But nobody can pin it down. Here are all occurrences of "tribulation" in the KJV. Nothing about 7 years.
Tribulation in the Bible (22 instances)

 

[TonyC7]

Read this passage with precision.
It tells you exactly who is intended by Verses 33 through 38. The answer is verse 32.

"32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms,
wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth."

Clearly, the chapter defines the subject of those who were tortured, etc., as being those individuals mentioned in Verse 32 (Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jepthae, David, Samuel, and the prophets). When you let the Bible interpret itself and stop inserting your own creative imaginative meanings, there really is no debate or mystery.

Jesus later confirms in Matthew 23 that the Pharisees and religious leaders were the "children of them that killed the prophets," and described how prophets were sent unto them who were scourged (a form of torture), crucified (a form of torture), persecuted, and slain.

So, the Bible is very consistent in its testimony and needs no help from Apocryphal books.

 

[Josiah]

He is alluding to something that Jews at the time would be familiar with... he is pointing to biblical characters that's for sure

Probably: is alluding to an event ... but does that indicate he's actually ALLUDING to a specific book, not an event but a book?

Perhaps I write something that alludes to the assignation of President Kennedy... would that mean that actually I'm alluding not to an event but rather to some specific, individual book? Perhaps not. Much more, would my allusion to a tragic event prove that some specific book is therefore the inerrant, fully-canodical, divinely-inscripturated words of God that legally must be in every tome published with the word "BIBLE" on the cover? Probably not.


A blessed Advent reason to you and yours...




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[Spindle4]

So, the Bible is very consistent in its testimony and needs no help from Apocryphal books.

Hi TonyC7,

Hold that thought.

Jud 1:14-15 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, (15) to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

What the Bible does do is include quotes that are not found elsewhere in it, such as the above one from Enoch.

Quote from Albert Barnes' Commentary: There is no mention made in the writings of Moses of the fact that Enoch was a prophet; but nothing is more probable in itself, and there is no absurdity in supposing that a true prophecy, though unrecorded, might be handed down by tradition.

Something similar is found in the Apocryphal Book of Enoch, possibly penned after Jude's letter was circulated, having been lifted from it.

Quote from Albert Barnes' Commentary: The passage as found in “the Book of Enoch” is in these words: “Behold he comes with ten thousand of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal, for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done and committed against him,” chapter ii. Bib. Repository, vol. xv. p. 86. If the Book of Enoch was written after the time of Jude, it is natural to suppose that the prophecy referred to by him, and handed down by tradition, would be inserted in it.

 

[Awaiting Transport]

It would seem that none of the respondents here know WHERE the 7 years tribulation is scripturally defined.

It centers around the book of Daniel.

Daniel 9:24-27
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Throughout prophetic scripture, the term 'weeks' actually refers to 7 years = 1 week. Therefore, 70 weeks = 490 years.

Verse 25 shows the time from the King Cyrus' commandment to restore Jerusalem (after Israels' 70 year Babylonian captivity) consists of 69 weeks (7+62 = 483 years) between the command given to the cross (verse 26). So everyone is waiting for the 70th week to happen, eg, the tribulation.

In verse 27, the 70th week begins...Daniel doesn't identify who 'he' is, but it's clearly the anti-christ. Reference to the midst of the week (3.5 years). After the first 3.5 years, the anti-christ will defile the temple, which many think that he will slaughter a pig on the altar. But note that there has to be a temple built first! It's fairly common knowledge that Israel has pretty much a 'pre fab' temple ready to be assembled in its rightful place on the temple mount on short notice. Various temple fixtures, robes, etc, are also ready to go, from what I've read. Then shall the abominations from the anti-christ begin. This prophecy was spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24 as well as Mark 13.

It's commonly thought that the destruction of the temple in Matthew 24:2 happened in 70 AD. Various denominations further believe that all the rest of Matthew 24 & 25 happened at that time as well. Nothing could be further from the truth. Simply look at what is being described there. Have wars, famines, etc happened yet? Many would say yes. But look at verse 6:

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. (underline mine)

Has the 'end' happened? And, of course, Jesus confirms Daniels' prophecy -

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Various Christian denominations teach that they will have to endure through the 7 years tribulation. The problem is that they fail to realize just how bad it will be. Zechariah 13:8 shows that 2/3 of the world population will die during that time. Yes, Zechariah was speaking/writing to Israel only - as were all the prophets, including Jesus - but as Israel goes, so the world goes. Given todays' technology, it's easy to understand that nuclear weapons will be used for much of the destruction.

Many feel that they will be judged like the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 at the end of the 7 years. Does anyone believe for a moment that they could survive all 7 years of tribulation? Most likely, there will be no electricity as most generation stations can be destroyed via the internet (it's been done on a very small basis worldwide, even a small power dam in the northeast US). What about anyone who requires medications to survive? Good luck getting insulin and keeping it cold, for example.

Of course, the solution for us is salvation by Gods' grace through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ per the Gospel as given to and relayed by Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Faith plus nothing.

We will all be 'snatched away' in the rapture of the believing church (not denominations, but all true believers) BEFORE the tribulation begins!

1Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Spindle4]

So everyone is waiting for the 70th week to happen, eg, the tribulation.

No Preterist is waiting for the 70th week.

 

[Awaiting Transport]

No Preterist is waiting for the 70th week.
View attachment 1700

That's right!

Throughout the Old Testament, all of Israel knew that there will be the abomination of desolation as written by Daniel, followed by the promised Messiah coming to restore the Kingdom as it was in the days of David. Even the disciples asked Jesus when He would restore the Kingdom -

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

After Jesus ascension, they expected that a 'few years' (5? 10? 20?) would pass before the tribulation would begin and after that, the Kingdom! It was confirmed again as well -

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus spoke of the Kingdom of God extensively as it was 'at hand' while he was alive without even a hint that Israel's denial of His being the Messiah would cause a 2000 year 'intermission' in God dealing with Israel and the promised Kingdom.

Yes, preterists believe the 70th week happened starting in 70AD. But if that were true, then WHERE is the promised Kingdom? All prophecy regarding the tribulation has yet to happen...the coming anti-christ, the rebuilt temple being descrated at the midpoint, etc. WHEN has all THAT 'already happened'? Gods' Word is 100% true. The giant number of prophecies throughout the Old Testament came true, including Jesus coming! Looking at what's going on these days in regards to the soon to be 'mark of the beast' and one global ruler clearly 'coming together' (no Covid is NOT the MOB nor is the jab...but technology is already extant to embed a computer chip in your right hand or in your forehead that IS the MOB!

Revelation 13:16-17
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Yes, preterists believe that the tribulation has already happened. But the world "ain't seen nothin' yet!"...but it's coming! THAT will be the 7 years tribulation!

 

[NathanH83]

No Preterist is waiting for the 70th week.
View attachment 1700

I like this. Something about it rings true. Because it says in the middle of the week he’ll put an end to sacrifice and offering. That makes it sound an awful lot like he’ll be crucified in the middle of the 70th week. That would explain why the Bible talks about 3 and 1/2 years a lot. Because it’s half of 7. It also fits with the design of the Menorah.