In the other place ....

[MoreCoffee]

In the other place there is a long thread asking if John MacArthur is guilty of heresy for his insistence that the expression "mother of God" is all wrong. I'll cite the sermon recording and if you want to listen to him, I managed about 50% of it, then you may want to give an opinion on whether he is contradicting the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon, and hence is in Christological heresy.

Exposing the Idolatry of Mary Worship: An Overview

Tonight, as was made clear this morning, we are going to be looking at the subject of the idolatry of worshipping Mary. And I want to say a few things before I say a few things by way of introduc

www.gty.org

 

[Josiah]

It's right to call Jesus "God" (the Bible does it, so it must be okay).
It's right to call Mary Jesus' mother (the Bible does it, so it must be okay).
Ergo...

In that sense, Mary is the mother of God.
There you are. Ain't rocket science.



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[MoreCoffee]

In the transcript of John MacArthur's sermon these words are spoken, they are in truth the core theological content in his sermon (the rest being polemics and quotes for polemical purposes), but their theology is wrong, heretical, a distortion that separates the human nature of Jesus Christ from his deity.

"In fact, Roman Catholics refer to her as Theotokos, God-bearer. They say she gave birth to God and thus is to be elevated and adored. She gave birth to God. That is a terrible misconception. She gave birth to Jesus in his humanity. She did not give birth to God. God was never born."​

And even in his alleged fact he gets the theology wrong, Blessed Mary is indeed elevated by God, for it is the angel Gabriel who calls her full of grace (or superlatively graced) κεχαριτωμενη. But Blessed Mary is not to be adored, venerated yes, as she is, but never adored as is God alone. Yet contrary to John MacArthur, Blessed Mary did indeed give birth to God, the greatest of mysteries and the help and hope of every Christian insofar as the incarnation is the source of every blessing human beings receive from God because therein God gives himself as a human being for human beings, and Blessed Mary did indeed give birth to a human being in his humanity yet that very same person is God in his divinity, so Blessed Mary did indeed give birth to Jesus Christ the human who is God. God was born into this world approximately 2,000 years ago.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There you are. Ain't rocket science.

That, dear Josiah, is rather flippant; did you listen to the sermon, read its transcript?

 

[Lanman87]

In the transcript of John MacArthur's sermon these words are spoken, they are in truth the core theological content in his sermon (the rest being polemics and quotes for polemical purposes), but their theology is wrong, heretical, a distortion that separates the human nature of Jesus Christ from his deity.

"In fact, Roman Catholics refer to her as Theotokos, God-bearer. They say she gave birth to God and thus is to be elevated and adored. She gave birth to God. That is a terrible misconception. She gave birth to Jesus in his humanity. She did not give birth to God. God was never born."​

And even in his alleged fact he gets the theology wrong, Blessed Mary is indeed elevated by God, for it is the angel Gabriel who calls her full of grace (or superlatively graced) κεχαριτωμενη. But Blessed Mary is not to be adored, venerated yes, as she is, but never adored as is God alone. Yet contrary to John MacArthur, Blessed Mary did indeed give birth to God, the greatest of mysteries and the help and hope of every Christian insofar as the incarnation is the source of every blessing human beings receive from God because therein God gives himself as a human being for human beings, and Blessed Mary did indeed give birth to a human being in his humanity yet that very same person is God in his divinity, so Blessed Mary did indeed give birth to Jesus Christ the human who is God. God was born into this world approximately 2,000 years ago.

This is a touchy subject among us non-Catholics. Mainly because of the verbage used. Jesus (the Son) didn't get His start within Mary. While Catholics don't mean that Christ never existed before He was born from Mary, what we hear in the phrase 'The Mother of God" is that before Mary Christ the Son didn't yet exist. That is why many non-Catholic teachers will give push back on the phrase "The Mother of God". Because it seems to imply that Christ was somehow created or didn't exist before the incarnation.

It is also of importance to understand the reasons for the councils that called Mary the "God-Bearer" (which is a much better translation because it shows she carried the Christ and didn't create the Christ) was not to elevate the importance of Mary but to show that Christ was both fully God and Fully man.

That is why when we hear phrases like "Mary is the source of all Grace" we cringe inside a little. For us, God (as a Trinity) is the source of all Grace. God was and is the source of all Grace before, during, and after the incarnation. The way I see it, Mary was an instrument Chosen by God to bring God to the Earth in the Christ. But she wasn't the "Source" of Grace and she wasn't the "Source" of God the Son. Because both Grace and "God the son" have existed eternally.

So when figures like St. Bernard say "Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the great praise we lavish on the Mother; for the more she is honored, the greater is the glory of her Son. There can be no doubt that whatever we say in praise of the Mother gives equal praise to the Son." and St. Bonaventure says ""Mary, the most faithful mediatrix of our salvation." and St. Lawrence Justinian ask ""How can she be otherwise than full of grace? She has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and human beings."

We see those statements as flat out wrong and misguided. They take salvation, redemption, sanctification, and all blessings/grace out of the hands of the Loving Father, the obedience of the Son and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we receive through a personal living faith in Christ and places them in the hands of Mary who can dispense them as she pleases.

 

[Josiah]

@Lanman87


I agree with you that the PHRASE "Mother of God" (Matre Dei) can be (and often is) misunderstood... and for that reason, Lutherans rarely use it when speaking with "Evangelicals." Kind of like a joke that needs to be explained is thus not a good joke, so a phrase like this is not good since it often needs to be explained.

I also agree with you that the Eastern Orthodox expression "God Bearer" (Theotokos) is better. It's the exact same theology but expressed in a way better understood, less likely to need explanation.

I think some radical/fundamentalist Catholics bring this up in Protestant forums just to stir things up and drive division. The vast majority of Protestants believe that Jesus is divine - and they know that. It seems they just want to stir things up.

I also agree with you that MUCH of the "problem" Protestants have with Catholicism is how its distinctives are often seen as "taking away" from Christ...



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[Castle Church]

I also agree with you that MUCH of the "problem" Protestants have with Catholicism is how its distinctives are often seen as "taking away" from Christ..

And how they may look one way on "paper", but play out in a different way in reality. "Veneration" being distinct from worship is a very fine line, one that is all too often crossed with little to no reprimanding from the men in charge, if they are not participating themselves.

 

[Lanman87]

BTW- what is this "other place"? DM if needed...

 

[Castle Church]

BTW- what is this "other place"? DM if needed...

The very large Christian online forum, probably the biggest active forum.

 

[Lanman87]

The very large Christian online forum, probably the biggest active forum.

I'm not aware of it, can someone dm me a link?

 

[Castle Church]

I'm not aware of it, can someone dm me a link?

Done

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is a touchy subject among us non-Catholics. Mainly because of the verbiage used. Jesus (the Son) didn't get His start within Mary. While Catholics don't mean that Christ never existed before He was born from Mary, what we hear in the phrase 'The Mother of God" is that before Mary Christ the Son didn't yet exist. That is why many non-Catholic teachers will give push back on the phrase "The Mother of God". Because it seems to imply that Christ was somehow created or didn't exist before the incarnation.

While I can feel for people who feel the way you have described it is an emotional argument rather than a factual and theological argument that you've presented. People who feel this way can alleviate their qualms by means of self education on what the Catholic Church means by "mother of God" and what the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon teach in their canons and specifically in the formula of Chalcedon.

It is also of importance to understand the reasons for the councils that called Mary the "God-Bearer" (which is a much better translation because it shows she carried the Christ and didn't create the Christ) was not to elevate the importance of Mary but to show that Christ was both fully God and Fully man.

Indeed, that is true; the purpose of the description of Mary as the mother of God is wholly Christological, it is nothing if it is not a proclamation of the one person, the Lord, Jesus Christ, as fully and wholly God and fully and wholly human - there is no division or body parts or human nature into God bits and human bits because there is one Christ who is God and human fully and completely.

That is why when we hear phrases like "Mary is the source of all Grace" we cringe inside a little. For us, God (as a Trinity) is the source of all Grace. God was and is the source of all Grace before, during, and after the incarnation. The way I see it, Mary was an instrument Chosen by God to bring God to the Earth in the Christ. But she wasn't the "Source" of Grace and she wasn't the "Source" of God the Son. Because both Grace and "God the son" have existed eternally.

To say that Blessed Mary if the source of all grace is to proclaim that God gives himself in Christ through the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ by means of Blessed Mary. It is no more worthy of a cringe than is typing Blessed Mary. Once again Blessed Mary is called blessed because of what is written in Luke 1:48 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

So when figures like St. Bernard say "Let us not imagine that we obscure the glory of the Son by the great praise we lavish on the Mother; for the more she is honored, the greater is the glory of her Son. There can be no doubt that whatever we say in praise of the Mother gives equal praise to the Son." and St. Bonaventure says ""Mary, the most faithful mediatrix of our salvation." and St. Lawrence Justinian ask ""How can she be otherwise than full of grace? She has been made the ladder to paradise, the gate of heaven, the most true mediatrix between God and human beings."

We see those statements as flat out wrong and misguided. They take salvation, redemption, sanctification, and all blessings/grace out of the hands of the Loving Father, the obedience of the Son and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we receive through a personal living faith in Christ and places them in the hands of Mary who can dispense them as she pleases.

"We see those statements as flat out wrong and misguided" is itself a wrong and misguided emotional response to what some Catholics wrote; since the Catholics who write such things think of all of Blessed Mary's "titles" and "praises" as Christological statements which amount to "Mary is the conduit-source of the God-given-grace included in the title or praise". Blessed Mary is a human being wholly and fully and she is not divine nor possessed of any glory or grace apart from God who gives it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think some radical/fundamentalist Catholics bring this up in Protestant forums just to stir things up and drive division. The vast majority of Protestants believe that Jesus is divine - and they know that. It seems they just want to stir things up.

The one who brought it all up is John MacArthur and he is no Catholic. And the immediate cause for me posting this thread is the things said (and written in a transcript of the sound recording) in the sermon that John MacArthur preached, and which was mentioned by a Protestant in "the other place" causing more than 1,000 responses to be written.

 

[MoreCoffee]

"Veneration" being distinct from worship is a very fine line, one that is all too often crossed with little to no reprimanding from the men in charge, if they are not participating themselves.

It may seem so to you but in reality very few Catholics that I know, and I do know many, fail to understand that venerating Blessed Mary is not worshipping Blessed Mary as if she is God. There is no fine line among Catholics but there appears to be a perception among some Protestants that such a thin line exists and that it is always being crossed by some Catholics; in truth some Protestants are convinced that all Catholics worship Mary either knowingly or unknowingly because those Protestants are convinced that the Catholic Church is some kind of demonic institution that shall in the 'end times' persecute "real Christians".

 

[MoreCoffee]

BTW- what is this "other place"? DM if needed...

It's "ChristianForums.com" and I call it the other place because a number of people here fled that place because of various reasons to do with site management etc.

 

[Castle Church]

It may seem so to you but in reality very few Catholics that I know, and I do know many, fail to understand that venerating Blessed Mary is not worshipping Blessed Mary as if she is God. There is no fine line among Catholics but there appears to be a perception among some Protestants that such a thin line exists and that it is always being crossed by some Catholics; in truth some Protestants are convinced that all Catholics worship Mary either knowingly or unknowingly because those Protestants are convinced that the Catholic Church is some kind of demonic institution that shall in the 'end times' persecute "real Christians".

I am well aware, I "crossed the Tiber" and was Catholic for close to 15 years. I do not think that it is "always being crossed", and I certainly don't think " all Catholics worship Mary either knowingly or unknowingly" and I absolutely don't think that the RCC is a "demonic institution". I loved my time in the RCC and respect the men and women that are in it. I actually think the issue is fairly uncommon proportionally to the amount of people that are Roman Catholic.

I am not going to go into it further, I don't want to derail your thread.

 

[Josiah]

It's "ChristianForums.com"

@MoreCoffee My hope would be that you'd leave all that hateful "Anti-Catholicism"/"Anti-Protestantism" over there and not try to import it here. Some of us left that site expressly to get away from that. Thanks.


.Gotta love that dot, my brother.

 

[Josiah]

I am well aware, I "crossed the Tiber" and was Catholic for close to 15 years. I do not think that it is "always being crossed", and I certainly don't think " all Catholics worship Mary either knowingly or unknowingly" and I absolutely don't think that the RCC is a "demonic institution". I loved my time in the RCC and respect the men and women that are in it. I actually think the issue is fairly uncommon proportionally to the amount of people that are Roman Catholic.

I am not going to go into it further, I don't want to derail your thread.

@Castle Church

Some will try hard to stir up Anti-Catholicism and/or Anti-Protestantism wherever they go. Thankfully, it doesn't seem to work here.

I too was raised in the Catholic Church and like you am VERY thankful for that. See Would you miss them if the creeds were all gone? post 22.


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[MoreCoffee]

I am not going to go into it further, I don't want to derail your thread.

I like that. It's a good thought.

But you though, do you think John MacArthur's statement "God was never born" is theologically erroneous?

 

[Albion]

In the other place there is a long thread asking if John MacArthur is guilty of heresy for his insistence that the expression "mother of God" is all wrong. I'll cite the sermon recording and if you want to listen to him, I managed about 50% of it, then you may want to give an opinion on whether he is contradicting the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon, and hence is in Christological heresy.

Exposing the Idolatry of Mary Worship: An Overview

Tonight, as was made clear this morning, we are going to be looking at the subject of the idolatry of worshipping Mary. And I want to say a few things before I say a few things by way of introduc

www.gty.org

I didn't much care for the article ('Exposing the Idolatry of Mary Worship: An Overview') and that's for several different reasons. One is that I can't agree with including the lengthy introduction about Rastafarianism that has no real bearing upon our issue.

However, there is a point that's worth extracting from the article. While Catholics insist that they do not worship Mary in the sense that they worship God, it is also true to say that what they do and are urged to do by their church with Mary if not with other saints comes very close to worship or actually crosses the line.

Any knowledgeable Catholic will deny, with outrage, the suggestion that they worship Mary. They will say that God is God and Mary is a creature, etc. and they know the difference. However, what they do, with the encouragement of the Church, is what worship is all about. We are speaking, therefore of de facto worship, but that would still qualify as worship.

When the saint is considered capable of granting the petitioner's request on her own volition, not just of passing the prayer along to God (as is sometimes the justification given by the Church), and when Mary is revered as the Co-redeemer of mankind, the Dispenser of all Graces, and a half-dozen similar titles, it really is worship of the kind that belongs to the Almighty alone.