If the Bible is the only source for God's word, where do pastors get their calling?

[meluckycharms]

I find this to be an extremely simple question. Yet it is so difficult for anyone to answer if they hold the position that the Bible is the only source for God's word. Where in the Bible do pastors read that they were specifically called to ministry?

 

[Romanos]

Hi meluckycharms,

Are you providing support for other avenues such as tradition?

Romanos

 

[popsthebuilder]

Hi meluckycharms,

Are you providing support for other avenues such as tradition?

Romanos

I think they are trying to say that belief comes by hearing the Word of GOD; which is in no way limited to any particular book.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[atpollard]

1 Corinthians 12 NASB
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. 2 You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. 3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking [fn]by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is [fn]accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except [fn]by the Holy Spirit.
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith [fn]by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of [fn]healing [fn]by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the [fn]effecting of [fn]miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the [fn]distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For [fn]by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason [fn]any the less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason [fn]any the less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now there are many members, but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, [fn]it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23 and those members of the body which we [fn]deem less honorable, [fn]on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24 whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25 so that there may be no [fn]division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is [fn]honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [fn]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then [fn]miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [fn]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
And I show you a still more excellent way.

Ephesians 4:1-16 NASB
1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore [fn]it says,
“WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what [fn]does it mean except that He also [fn]had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the [fn]saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the [fn]knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature [fn]which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 [fn]As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness [fn]in deceitful scheming; 15 but [fn]speaking the truth in love, [fn]we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together [fn]by what every joint supplies, according to the [fn]proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

Exodus 35:21 NASB
Everyone whose heart [fn]stirred him and everyone whose spirit [fn]moved him came and brought the LORD'S [fn]contribution for the work of the tent of meeting and for all its service and for the holy garments.

Acts 13:2 NASB
While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

 

[Albion]

I find this to be an extremely simple question. Yet it is so difficult for anyone to answer if they hold the position that the Bible is the only source for God's word. Where in the Bible do pastors read that they were specifically called to ministry?

Is that a doctrine that is necessary for salvation--"God called me, Joe, into the ministry?"

I would say "No."

That wasn't very difficult to answer after all.

 

[meluckycharms]

Hi meluckycharms,

Are you providing support for other avenues such as tradition?

Romanos

The question came to mind when I was having a conversation with a Baptist cessationist who stated that "The Bible is the only source for the word of God". The context of his statement was to deny the existence of spiritual gifts including the gift of prophesy. So the thought process is as followed:

1. The call to ministry comes from God only and that the calling is confirmed, affirmed, or recognized by the church (may vary by polity).

2. If the Bible is the only source for God's word and the call to ministry is from God, which bible verse specifically calls Romanos (just an example) to ministry?

3. If there is no such scripture that specifically says "Romanos you are hereby called to be a pastor", then your calling did not come from the Bible. However, you can use the Bible (Timothy and Titus) to confirm your calling.

4. So if the word of God is only found in the bible, pastor's calling only comes from God, and nowhere in scripture will you specifically find your name being called, I can only conclude that the Bible is not the only source for God's word and that the extra-Biblical source of God's word is the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is able to inspire, illuminate, communicate a personal message to a person calling them to ministry, why then would it not be possible for the Holy Spirit to communicate other messages to people via the gift of prophesy?

 

[tango]

I find this to be an extremely simple question. Yet it is so difficult for anyone to answer if they hold the position that the Bible is the only source for God's word. Where in the Bible do pastors read that they were specifically called to ministry?

I think the idea that "The Bible is the only source for God's word" is the kind of idea that needs to be considered in context.

To a large extent I think it's a statement that gets distorted because of the matter of scope and relevance. The Bible is as relevant to you as it is to me, but the calling "Tango, you are to be a (whatever)" is very relevant to me while being utterly irrelevant to you. Hence, if the Bible contained every single specific personal calling it would be a monstrous great book, far too heavy to carry around, and the chances are nobody would read it because most of it would be irrelevant to them.

We can regard the Bible as the sole source of God's universal word, the sole source of God's intention as far as testing something is concerned, without necessarily seeing it as the one and only way God speaks to us. As you say, if God says nothing that isn't recorded in the pages of Scripture then there is no way any one of us could be called to anything, short of finding the missing billions of pages of Scripture. I shudder to think how many scrolls or tablets of stone that would take up.

Where testing against Scripture is concerned we can consider Scripture to be the only objective yardstick, but even then there need to be considerations over and above. If I feel called to be a bishop, for instance, I can look at Scripture to see what qualities a bishop is required to have. If I fall short, maybe I'm not ready to be a bishop. If I tick all the boxes all that proves is that I qualify, not necessarily that I am actually called to that role.

I guess the short version of all that is that I kinda-sorta-agree with you, with qualifications regarding just what it means to say "the Bible is the only source for God's word".

 

[tango]

The question came to mind when I was having a conversation with a Baptist cessationist who stated that "The Bible is the only source for the word of God". The context of his statement was to deny the existence of spiritual gifts including the gift of prophesy.

I'm not an expert on the cessationist stance by any means (not least given it's not a view I hold), but from what I understand it's not necessarily entirely inconsistent with the notion that God can and does speak today.

In Acts we see things like Peter's shadow healing people, and people jostling to get their sick relatives into a position where Peter's shadow might fall upon them, so that they could be healed. Nowadays we don't see that any more. Nowadays a lot of people are prayed for and not healed, but also a lot of people are prayed for and are healed. So one might say the gift of healing has ceased, even though God does sometimes heal miraculously.

Likewise one might argue that "the gift of prophecy" has ceased insofar as we don't have people called prophets any more, all the while accepting that God may periodically speak through an individual. Someone might talk to you and say "hey, meluckycharms, I think you'd make a really good minister, is that something you've ever considered?". You could decide for yourself whether it was a prophetic word or not - if it came out of the blue you might ignore it, but if it was the seventh person that week to say much the same thing to you, and it came right after you had a growing feeling that maybe this was your calling, you might regard it as confirmation from God even if nobody did offer a statement along the lines of "Thus saith the LORD - you, meluckycharms, are highly anointed and are chosen become the minister of Podunkville Church".

 

[MennoSota]

meluckycharms wrote:
Where in the Bible do pastors read that they were specifically called to ministry?

The short answer is: There is no passage. The process was that the elders of the church were selected by the Apostles and those elders went on to select elders. Elders would pray and make the wisest choice they could.
In the early church we see the folly of self-appointed teachers who had no support from the elders. Rampant false teachers quickly rose up as they imagined they could make a good living being paid to teach something that itched the ears of community members.
We can look back on history and see where churches chose incorrectly and bad results happened. Jesus addresses churches in Revelation who had embraced false leaders. We see how Rome has run down a false path.
So, when you hear someone say they were "called" to the ministry; ask to speak to their elder board.

 

[Albion]

The question came to mind when I was having a conversation with a Baptist cessationist who stated that "The Bible is the only source for the word of God". The context of his statement was to deny the existence of spiritual gifts including the gift of prophesy. So the thought process is as followed:

1. The call to ministry comes from God only and that the calling is confirmed, affirmed, or recognized by the church (may vary by polity).

2. If the Bible is the only source for God's word and the call to ministry is from God, which bible verse specifically calls Romanos (just an example) to ministry?

3. If there is no such scripture that specifically says "Romanos you are hereby called to be a pastor", then your calling did not come from the Bible. However, you can use the Bible (Timothy and Titus) to confirm your calling.

4. So if the word of God is only found in the bible....

Yes, I'm with you on all of that, but "the only source for the word of God" is something that I guess a Baptist might say, believing as many do that every action we take should be in response to God specifically whispering something in our ears or else a general feeling imparted by the Holy Ghost dwelling in the believer.

FWIW, none of that is typical of the mainstream Protestant churches which adhere to the idea of Sola Scriptura. I thought I picked up a hint in the OP that the view described is typical of Protestants and would pose a problem or contradiction for Protestants generally, but it is not.

 

[Josiah]

I find this to be an extremely simple question. Yet it is so difficult for anyone to answer if they hold the position that the Bible is the only source for God's word. Where in the Bible do pastors read that they were specifically called to ministry?

Some thoughts....


1. No Protestant claims that the Bible is the whole of the Word of God. The Bible is the WRITTEN word of God. I realize Protestants (like the Bible itself) sometimes speaks of the Bible as "the Word" but actually it's not the whole of it, it's the WRITTEN Word.


2. No Protestant claims that the Bible contains the whole of God's Revelation. The Bible itself states, "The heavens declare the glory of God." What Protestants claim is that the words of the Bible are the "sole rule and norm" for DOGMA. Huge difference there. Illustation: In California, there is a Driver's Handbook which all drivers here are to be familiar (we aren't expected to know ALL laws), and disputes about our driving will be normed by the words in that Handbook. No one claims that that handbook contains all the Laws of the world (not even all the driving laws of California) but it IS the sole rule and norm for disputes about driving in this state. Sola Scriptura has to do with ARBITRATION of disputed dogmas among us - and addresses the second of the parts of arbitration, namely, what will serve as the rule/norma normans.


3. God certainly "leads" individuals. He may do it by opening some doors and closing others, He may do so through the counsel trusted believers give us, etc., etc., etc. It is of course subjective since it's not in objective, unchangable, black-and-white words He places on the pages of a book. But all Christians believe He can and does so lead, just that such isn't the norma normans for Dogma and that such is quite subjective.


4. In Lutheran theology, one may FEEL a SUBJECTIVE "call" from the Lord for ministry. That is passionately affirmed. HOWEVER, we argue that one does not HAVE a Call until a congregation extends one to them, thus we speak of "I have a Call from God via St. Paul's Lutheran Church of Salem, Oregon." Otherwise, he is "awaiting" a Call.



Thank you.


A blessed Lenten season to all....



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

There are also visions prophecy words of knowledge, all sorts of ways God communicates

 

[tango]

There are also visions prophecy words of knowledge, all sorts of ways God communicates

Sure, but if you're talking with someone who believes the gifts have ceased the chances are they would just write off anything like that as being delusions of some form or another.

 

[tango]

4. In Lutheran theology, one may FEEL a SUBJECTIVE "call" from the Lord for ministry. That is passionately affirmed. HOWEVER, we argue that one does not HAVE a Call until a congregation extends one to them, thus we speak of "I have a Call from God via St. Paul's Lutheran Church of Salem, Oregon." Otherwise, he is "awaiting" a Call.

This is a particularly good point. The person who says "I am called to lead" and so goes ahead and pushes for a leadership position (or, worse, founds their own movement) on the back of that is probably not called to leadership.

I remember at my previous church when one of the then elders brought a matter to the church as a whole. He felt called into full time ministry, he and his family had spent some considerable time talking and praying about it, and his family agreed with him. By that time he had taken it to the minister and other elders, and they were in agreement. So it went to the church and we were asked to give prayerful consideration to whether we agreed with the calling. Once the church accepted the calling it then went to the appropriate Bible college for yet another round of validation.

At the time I couldn't help but wonder if the process was too convoluted, that endless machinations of Man were lining up in ways that could obstruct the will of God. Looking back I now believe that such a process is a good thing. The Bible warns that teachers will face a harsher judgment and, as MennoSota said further up, the NT is littered with admonitions against false teachers who were clearly doing a good job of leading churches astray. Someone announcing "God has called me to lead" who is accepted as a leader with no further testing is unlikely to be a good choice.

Scripture sets good precedents for this. Moses essentially said "Here am I.... bu-bu-bu-but why not send him, he's better suited for this". Jeremiah said he couldn't speak because he was only a youth. Jonah ran away.

I'm increasingly minded to think that anyone who wants a leadership position in church, other than in the context of wanting to do God's will wherever that takes them, is probably not suited for a leadership position in church.

 

[meluckycharms]

I'm not an expert on the cessationist stance by any means (not least given it's not a view I hold), but from what I understand it's not necessarily entirely inconsistent with the notion that God can and does speak today.

In Acts we see things like Peter's shadow healing people, and people jostling to get their sick relatives into a position where Peter's shadow might fall upon them, so that they could be healed. Nowadays we don't see that any more. Nowadays a lot of people are prayed for and not healed, but also a lot of people are prayed for and are healed. So one might say the gift of healing has ceased, even though God does sometimes heal miraculously.

Likewise one might argue that "the gift of prophecy" has ceased insofar as we don't have people called prophets any more, all the while accepting that God may periodically speak through an individual. Someone might talk to you and say "hey, meluckycharms, I think you'd make a really good minister, is that something you've ever considered?". You could decide for yourself whether it was a prophetic word or not - if it came out of the blue you might ignore it, but if it was the seventh person that week to say much the same thing to you, and it came right after you had a growing feeling that maybe this was your calling, you might regard it as confirmation from God even if nobody did offer a statement along the lines of "Thus saith the LORD - you, meluckycharms, are highly anointed and are chosen become the minister of Podunkville Church".

You go to Podunkville too?!

 

[meluckycharms]

The short answer is: There is no passage. The process was that the elders of the church were selected by the Apostles and those elders went on to select elders. Elders would pray and make the wisest choice they could.
In the early church we see the folly of self-appointed teachers who had no support from the elders. Rampant false teachers quickly rose up as they imagined they could make a good living being paid to teach something that itched the ears of community members.
We can look back on history and see where churches chose incorrectly and bad results happened. Jesus addresses churches in Revelation who had embraced false leaders. We see how Rome has run down a false path.
So, when you hear someone say they were "called" to the ministry; ask to speak to their elder board.

I agree. One person (on the Baptist Board forum) actually told me that the church gives a pastor their calling. I immediately responded that that statement was false. God is the only one who calls. The Church affirms and recognizes that calling via the tools and guidelines found in the Bible (Timothy and Titus ect.).

 

[meluckycharms]

Yes, I'm with you on all of that, but "the only source for the word of God" is something that I guess a Baptist might say, believing as many do that every action we take should be in response to God specifically whispering something in our ears or else a general feeling imparted by the Holy Ghost dwelling in the believer.

FWIW, none of that is typical of the mainstream Protestant churches which adhere to the idea of Sola Scriptura. I thought I picked up a hint in the OP that the view described is typical of Protestants and would pose a problem or contradiction for Protestants generally, but it is not.

I should probably have mentioned that the conversation came from a more Reformed (particular) baptist. I know that particular Baptists make up a rather small minority compared to general Baptist.

BTW...I posted this exact same OP on the Baptist Board and within 9 hours I was called a "lier" and "heretic" who "worshiped a stupid god (lowercase g) before the mods closed it the thread. I am so greatful that Christianity Haven is more respectful.

 

[meluckycharms]

There are also visions prophecy words of knowledge, all sorts of ways God communicates

I agree. I received my calling to ministry through a vision. Naturally many would be skeptical. However, even though I am called, I do not claim any titles until that calling is confirmed and affirmed by the church.

 

[meluckycharms]

This is a particularly good point. The person who says "I am called to lead" and so goes ahead and pushes for a leadership position (or, worse, founds their own movement) on the back of that is probably not called to leadership.

I remember at my previous church when one of the then elders brought a matter to the church as a whole. He felt called into full time ministry, he and his family had spent some considerable time talking and praying about it, and his family agreed with him. By that time he had taken it to the minister and other elders, and they were in agreement. So it went to the church and we were asked to give prayerful consideration to whether we agreed with the calling. Once the church accepted the calling it then went to the appropriate Bible college for yet another round of validation.

At the time I couldn't help but wonder if the process was too convoluted, that endless machinations of Man were lining up in ways that could obstruct the will of God. Looking back I now believe that such a process is a good thing. The Bible warns that teachers will face a harsher judgment and, as MennoSota said further up, the NT is littered with admonitions against false teachers who were clearly doing a good job of leading churches astray. Someone announcing "God has called me to lead" who is accepted as a leader with no further testing is unlikely to be a good choice.

Scripture sets good precedents for this. Moses essentially said "Here am I.... bu-bu-bu-but why not send him, he's better suited for this". Jeremiah said he couldn't speak because he was only a youth. Jonah ran away.

I'm increasingly minded to think that anyone who wants a leadership position in church, other than in the context of wanting to do God's will wherever that takes them, is probably not suited for a leadership position in church.

Agreed. If you are too big to serve, you are too big to lead. I also believe that if someone is genuinely called by God, no obstacle would prevent it. The more checks that are in place, the better IMO.

 

[meluckycharms]

Sure, but if you're talking with someone who believes the gifts have ceased the chances are they would just write off anything like that as being delusions of some form or another.

Exactly what I saw on the Baptist Board. I told them God called me to ministry via a vision and they mocked me as another "self appointed minister".