I am saved?

[Josiah]

But you said it’s God’s work entirely???

MARK -

You are deraiiling your own thread.....

Yes, Protestants believe that Jesus is the Savior. This means that Jesus is the Savior. Because Jesus saves us. This is what the Bible says, this is the keystone of Christianity. We reject that Jesus actually saves no one and thus isn't the Savior (of anyone) - rather, all He does is make salvation POSSIBLE, He creates the opportunity for each person to be their own Savior; He is just the possibility-maker or helper or door opener but not the Savior (since He doesn't actually save anyone). This synergistic heresy is (sadly) heard among some Catholics (in spite of it being condemned at the Council of Orange, etc.) shows how this mistake from some Catholics that the Reformers noted is still with us, this rejection of Jesus as the Savior. In my Catholic days, I heard our Deacon flat out state, "Jesus technically saves no one but rather makes it POSSIBLE for each to save themselves." It stunned me... and helped me realize there are Christians who CALL Jesus something they actually don't believe. One of my Catholic teachers taught, "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it."

Mark, IF you want to discuss justification/salvation....and whether Jesus actually SAVES (he doing it) or not.... we can do that. Actually, there are already many threads on that topic here (buried keep in this section). But you are going to have a hard time convincing folks here that Jesus doesn't actually save anyone but RATHER just provides the opportunity for each to save themselves.... and they are going to ask you why (for heaven's sake) you CALL Him "Savior" if you don't believe He actually saves but only offers and provides and helps.

But again, that's not the topic here. I agree with the Catholic Church that Baptism CONFERS justification (CCC 1994). Obviously, you promote the Anabaptist view that it does not. And that's okay, we have several with an Anabaptist view of Baptism here at CH.




.

 

[Fritz Kobus]

But again, that's not the topic here. I agree with the Catholic Church that Baptism CONFERS justification (CCC 1994). Obviously, you promote the Anabaptist view that it does not. And that's okay, we have several with an Anabaptist view of Baptism here at CH.

But justification is by faith, which faith then pursues baptism because "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). It is, however, possible to be saved without being baptized, but this would seem a rare event, like the thief who converted while hanging on a cross next to Jesus.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Since that's your definition of "salvation" then NO ONE is saved.... it only happens at the microsecond of death. And of course, thus Baptism does not save since Baptism doesn't (typically) kill anyone.


Yes, there are verses that speak of salvation in the future (obviously when the full benefits are received) but also that speak of it in the past. You just ignore that. One example: Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," Paul writes this to LIVING people, the Ephesian Christians, He says they HAVE BEEN SAVED." sesosmenoi = having already been saved. He says of people very much still alive (and still sinful).



.

Eph 2 refers to redemption not justification or salvation
In baptism we become members of Christ and put in Christ are given a new heart and the spirit, a new creation in grace and then abide in Christ and endure till the end

Jn 15:1-5 abide
matt 24:13 endure
acts 22:16 sins washed away
1 cor 12:13 member of Christ and his church
Gal 3:27 put on christ
Jn 1:16-17 Grace

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Heb 9:27 how can you say you are saved before this judgement?

rom 13:11
how can you say saved by “faith alone”

thanks

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

That is a great way of stating what is often very confusingly conveyed as objective justification. For sure, the redemption of all manking was inherent in the sacrifical death of Jesus on the cross, but nobody was declared justifiied on that basis alone, but only by faith in receiving Jesus as their personal savior.

Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior is not in the Bible!

the promise of the father is
A promise of God is a sacred oath and a sacred oath is a sacrament
It’s not a bible study!
It’s a covenant!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” not biblical
“Faith alone” never given in prophesy in the OT.
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical!

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!
Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!
Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10


“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

Jn 10:10 life, (grace more abundantly)
Jn 1: 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(Thru the sacraments!)

thanks

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

MARK -

You are deraiiling your own thread.....

Yes, Protestants believe that Jesus is the Savior. This means that Jesus is the Savior. Because Jesus saves us. This is what the Bible says, this is the keystone of Christianity. We reject that Jesus actually saves no one and thus isn't the Savior (of anyone) - rather, all He does is make salvation POSSIBLE, He creates the opportunity for each person to be their own Savior; He is just the possibility-maker or helper or door opener but not the Savior (since He doesn't actually save anyone). This synergistic heresy is (sadly) heard among some Catholics (in spite of it being condemned at the Council of Orange, etc.) shows how this mistake from some Catholics that the Reformers noted is still with us, this rejection of Jesus as the Savior. In my Catholic days, I heard our Deacon flat out state, "Jesus technically saves no one but rather makes it POSSIBLE for each to save themselves." It stunned me... and helped me realize there are Christians who CALL Jesus something they actually don't believe. One of my Catholic teachers taught, "Jesus opened the door to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it."

Mark, IF you want to discuss justification/salvation....and whether Jesus actually SAVES (he doing it) or not.... we can do that. Actually, there are already many threads on that topic here (buried keep in this section). But you are going to have a hard time convincing folks here that Jesus doesn't actually save anyone but RATHER just provides the opportunity for each to save themselves.... and they are going to ask you why (for heaven's sake) you CALL Him "Savior" if you don't believe He actually saves but only offers and provides and helps.

But again, that's not the topic here. I agree with the Catholic Church that Baptism CONFERS justification (CCC 1994). Obviously, you promote the Anabaptist view that it does not. And that's okay, we have several with an Anabaptist view of Baptism here at CH.




.

Sorry for the confusion
Jesus is the savior and the only savior
But through the sacraments of his church
Yes baptism is justification

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins

Lk 1: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Savior of all people

Jn 1:16-17
It’s not a bible study!
It’s a covenant!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” not biblical
“Faith alone” never given in prophesy in the OT.
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical!

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!
Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!
Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10


“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

Jn 10:10 life, (grace more abundantly)
Jn 1: 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jn 1:16-17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(Thru the sacraments!)

 

[Fritz Kobus]

Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior is not in the Bible!

So you basically want us to only and ever use nothing but Bible verses to talk doctrine? Ok, how is this:


No one is righteous (Romans 3.10). For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3.23). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6.23a)--everlasting punishment (Matthew 25.46) in Hell fire (Matthew 18.9)--but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Romans 6.23b). For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). God has shown his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5.8). And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2.2). He poured out his soul unto death (Isaiah 53.12) and washed us from our sins in his own blood (Revelation 1.5). The blood of Jesus Christ, His Son, cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1.7), for in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2.9). He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe on the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God falls upon him (John 3.36).

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

So you basically want us to only and ever use nothing but Bible verses to talk doctrine? Ok, how is this:


No one is righteous (Romans 3.10). For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3.23). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6.23a)--everlasting punishment (Matthew 25.46) in Hell fire (Matthew 18.9)--but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Romans 6.23b). For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). God has shown his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5.8). And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2.2). He poured out his soul unto death (Isaiah 53.12) and washed us from our sins in his own blood (Revelation 1.5). The blood of Jesus Christ, His Son, cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1.7), for in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2.9). He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe on the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God falls upon him (John 3.36).

The Christian rule of faith is Christ and His church, what God has revealed and the church proposed for belief!

but for apologetic purposes yes I limit myself to the “Bible alone” for you’re sake

thanks now one at a time please

All have sinned? Rom 3:23

Can be seen in three ways!
1) This verse can be seen as a generalization, like Matt 3:5.
2) Paul is quoting the OT all have sinned accept my people.
3) refers to original sin of which Mary was created without original sin. Gen 3:15 enmity with Satan nine of his works in Her Lk 1:28 full of grace, Lk 1:49 rev 12 satans adversary is Mary.
Its not absolute, Jesus, children under the age of reason, mentally ill or anyone without free will are Not Included!!! And Mary is not included! Gen 3:15 enmity, Lk 1:28 full of grace and blessed!


Proving Mary most holy, ever virgin mother of God & mother of our salvation is not a sinner!

Lk 1:28 Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women.

How can God fill a sinner with grace, and remain a sinner?
Hail Mary full of grace!

How can the Lord be with sinner?
The lord is with thee!

How can sinner be blessed!
Blessed art thou, and all generations shall call me blessed!

Lk 1: 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

How can a sinner be the mother of God?

Lk 1: 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

How could sinner be faithful?

Lk 1: 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

How could a sinner magnify the Lord?

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

How could sinner be humble?

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

How could sinner be the immaculate conception and the have the Holy Spirit accomplish the Miraculous conception of Jesus in Her?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

How could sinner be a perpetual Virgin bringing forth the savior of the world?

Jn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

How could sinner be our spiritual mother?

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation!

How could a sinner be the mother of our salvation?

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Replies for Fritz

The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)
Agree and when we commit a mortal sin we are seperated from God till repentance for those baptized into Christ.

everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46)
Agree

in Hell fire (Matthew 18.9)
Agree

but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Romans 6.23b).
Agree but in the church through the sacraments

For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16)
Agree but must remain in that state of faith till death.

God has shown his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5.8)
Agree

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (1 John 2.2)
Agree

He poured out his soul unto death (Isaiah 53.12)
Agree

and washed us from our sins in his own blood (Revelation 1.5)
Agree

The blood of Jesus Christ, His Son, cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1.7)
Agree in baptism acts 22:16

for in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2.9).
Agree

He who believes on the Son has everlasting life, and he who does not believe on the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God falls upon him (John 3.36)
Agree but not “faith alone” or a “one time faith” like accept Christ as your personal lord and savior which is not in scripture!


It’s not a bible study!
It’s a covenante!

Not by “faith alone”
“Faith alone” not biblical
“Faith alone” never given in prophesy in the OT.
You may think “Accept Jesus Christ as you personal Lord and savior” is biblical but there is no such verse in your bible!

Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical!

Faith and baptism is the biblical initiation into the new covenant and member is Christ and His holy church!
Ez 36:25-27 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign!
Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38

Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Lk 1: 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 1:18 & Jn 10:16 one fold

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one: acts 9 why persecute me?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice!
The holy sacrifice of Christ, His passion, blood, and death producing unlimited fruits of divine grace, actual and sanctifying grace! Jn 1:29 Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10


“This promise” (sacred oath of God or sacrament) of the Father acts 2:38-39 with reference to ez 36:25-27 Also a mystery Mk 4:11 Eph 5:32 eph 6:19 1 Tim 3:9 3:16 Col 1:27 2:2 4:3

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5 born again by water and the spirit.

Heb 7:21 For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
(Oath = sacrament)

Hebrews 8:6
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Based on Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


A promise is a sacred oath or sacrament!
Baptismal regeneration is the promise of the Father for union in the new covenant!

The church and the seven sacraments are necessary for salvation

Better covenant on better promises

2 Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

Life of supernatural grace merited by Christ in His passion and death!

An oath to sacramental life in the new covenant in union with the mediator and communion with God, and the saints!

Promise of the Father acts 2:23-39
Promise is an oath and an oath is a sacrament! This promise of the sacrament of baptism refers to ez. 36:25-27

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

Jn 1:5-5 abide in Him, apart from Him you can do nothing.

Jn 10:10 life, (grace more abundantly)
Jn 1: 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

Jn 1:16-17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
(Thru faith and the sacraments!)

 

[Lamb]

Sorry for the confusion
Jesus is the savior and the only savior
But through the sacraments of his church
Yes baptism is justification

Glad you agree that Jesus is Savior. Then asking "Am I Saved" shouldn't even be the question since Jesus saves and he is the "only savior" as you stated above. If you have to ask if you're saved then apparently you aren't fully trusting that Jesus is the Savior who saves.

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Glad you agree that Jesus is Savior. Then asking "Am I Saved" shouldn't even be the question since Jesus saves and he is the "only savior" as you stated above. If you have to ask if you're saved then apparently you aren't fully trusting that Jesus is the Savior who saves.

I mean by “I am saved” is a past tense over and done with

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)


Proof of true faith is humble s humble subjection and obedience to Christ and His holy church!

 

[Pedrito]

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Post #2: Faithhopeandcharity’s presentation was most compelling, wasn’t it? Seriously.

Post #4, in response: Was your comment here SUPPOSED to be a joke? Or did it just come out that way??

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I wasn’t joking. I thought that was reasonably clear. Faithhopeandcharity’s presentation was in the main, very sound.

The questionable aspect overall, would have been if Faithhopeandcharity had been using the term “the church of His apostles” to mean the post-apostolic, pagan-dominated, political entity that became “The Roman Catholic Church”.

That that was the case, was later confirmed in Post #6, where reference is made to the supposed founding of a strongly hierarchical organisation (one showing historical traits incompatible with those Jesus and the apostles). The “sacraments’ of that organisation are referred to as well.

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When we look at the recipients of the thoughts presented in Post #1 and Post #6, a different picture emerges.

The recipients of those messages were the original believers who belonged to a loose confederation of churches, having no hierarchy, no particular vesture, and no accumulated riches.

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For example, from those posts:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews 10:23-29, 35-39: "if we sin willfully", "if anyone draws back".
1 Timothy 5:8: "he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever"
Faith and baptism: Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 1 pet 3:20-21 Acts 8:36-38 [as in the apostolic church]
Faith and the sacraments in the church founded by the authority Christ on Peter and the apostles is biblical! [apostolic teaching and practice, that is]
You cannot enter a covenant by “faith alone” must be a ritual outward sign! [immediate baptism was that sign]
Faith and baptism! Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 [as practised by the apostles]
1 John 2:24-25 – "if what you heard from the beginning abides in you"
2 Timothy 2:11-13: "if we deny him, he will also deny us"
Merits of christ’s passion, death, and precious blood are applied in the sacraments! Jn 1:16 [as they were understood in apostolic times]
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. [not after extended organisational instruction]
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [not by an act of joining “the church”]
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. [the apostolic church]
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. [defining the apostolic church once again]

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I could go on, but I think the point has been made.

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