Have you read Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom, and so forth?

[MoreCoffee]

Have you read Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Wisdom, and so forth?

What do you think of what you read?

 

[jswauto]

A Warning Concerning the Apocrypha
Within the historic Protestant understanding of Scripture, the Apocrypha (also called the Deuterocanonical books) are not regarded as the inspired, authoritative Word of God. While these writings contain historical value, moral reflections, and cultural insight, they do not carry the divine authority of the Old and New Testaments.
✦ Why They Are Not Considered Inspired
1. The Jewish Canon Never Included Them
The Hebrew Scriptures recognized by Jesus and the apostles did not contain the Apocrypha.
Protestant teaching holds that the Old Testament canon was already settled and these books were outside it.
2. Jesus and the Apostles Never Quoted Them as Scripture
The New Testament quotes the Old Testament hundreds of times, but never once cites the Apocrypha as authoritative Scripture.
3. Early Church Fathers Distinguished Them
Many early Christian leaders (e.g., Jerome) valued the Apocrypha for reading but denied they were inspired or equal to Scripture.
4. Internal Claims Contradict Inspiration
Some Apocryphal books contain:
• Historical inaccuracies
• Doctrinal teachings not found in Scripture
• Explicit statements from their own authors denying prophetic authority
5. The Reformers Reaffirmed the Biblical Canon
The Reformation returned to the ancient Hebrew canon and declared the Apocrypha to be useful but not inspired, and therefore not a basis for doctrine.

✦ Summary Warning
The Apocrypha should not be treated as the inspired Word of God.
They may be read for historical understanding or moral reflection, but they do not carry the authority, purity, or divine inspiration of the 66 books of the Bible. No doctrine should be built upon them, and they must never be placed on equal footing with Scripture.

The Apocrypha (Not all Inclusive)

✦ Tobit — God’s Providence & Angelic Guidance
A righteous man named Tobit suffers blindness and hardship while remaining faithful in exile. His son, Tobias, is guided by the angel Raphael on a journey that brings healing, deliverance, and a divinely arranged marriage. The book highlights charity, purity, prayer, and God’s hidden orchestration of events.
Theme: God’s providence, angelic intervention, righteousness in exile
• A beautiful story of faithfulness during suffering.
• Features the angel Raphael, who guides Tobias on a journey of healing and deliverance.
• Emphasizes charity, marriage, purity, and trusting God in hardship.
• One of the most “miracle‑rich” books outside the Gospels.

✦ Judith — Courage, Faith, and Deliverance
Judith, a devout widow, becomes God’s unexpected instrument to save Israel from the Assyrian general Holofernes. Through fasting, prayer, and bold action, she infiltrates the enemy camp and brings victory to her people. It’s a story of holy bravery and God empowering the unlikely.
Theme: Courage, divine deliverance, God using the unlikely
• Judith, a widow, becomes God’s instrument to save Israel.
• She infiltrates the enemy camp and defeats the Assyrian general Holofernes.
• The book highlights faith, fasting, and bold obedience.
• A powerful example of God raising unexpected heroes.

✦ Additions to Esther — God’s Hand Revealed
These additions expand the Book of Esther with prayers, visions, and explicit references to God’s intervention. They highlight divine sovereignty, spiritual warfare, and the unseen battle behind Esther’s courage.

✦ Wisdom of Solomon — Divine Wisdom & Immortality
A profound meditation on wisdom as God’s gift. It contrasts the righteous and the wicked, teaches that the souls of the just are in God’s hands, and explores themes of justice, immortality, and the nature of true wisdom. Early Christians saw strong foreshadowing of Christ here.
Theme: Divine wisdom, immortality, righteousness vs. wickedness
• Explores the nature of wisdom as God’s gift.
• Teaches that the righteous are in God’s hands and death cannot defeat them.
• Contains some of the most profound reflections on the soul, justice, and God’s character.
• Early Christians saw strong foreshadowing of Christ in its language.

✦ Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) — Practical Wisdom & Fear of the Lord
A massive collection of wisdom teachings covering humility, speech, friendship, family, generosity, and righteousness. Sirach is one of the richest sources on the Fear of the Lord, presenting it as the foundation of wisdom and moral life. It reads like Proverbs expanded.
Theme: Wisdom, moral instruction, practical righteousness
• A massive collection of wisdom sayings, similar to Proverbs.
• Covers speech, humility, friendship, family, generosity, and the fear of the Lord.
• Deeply rooted in Jewish tradition and used heavily in early Christian teaching.
• One of the richest sources on the Fear of the Lord — which you’ve been exploring.

✦ Baruch — Exile, Repentance, and Hope
Written in the voice of Baruch, Jeremiah’s scribe, this book reflects on Israel’s exile, calling the people to repentance and trust in God’s mercy. It blends confession, wisdom, and prophetic hope for restoration.

✦ Letter of Jeremiah — Warning Against Idolatry
Often included as part of Baruch, this letter mocks the powerlessness of idols and urges God’s people to remain faithful in a pagan world. It’s a sharp, poetic critique of false gods.

✦ 1 Maccabees — Historical Courage & Revolt
A historical account of the Jewish revolt against the Seleucid Empire. It tells the story of the Maccabean brothers, their battles, and the rededication of the Temple (origin of Hanukkah). Themes include covenant loyalty, perseverance, and holy resistance.

✦ 2 Maccabees — Martyrdom, Resurrection, and God’s Justice
Covers some of the same events as 1 Maccabees but with more theological depth. Highlights martyrdom, resurrection hope, angelic intervention, and God’s justice. It contains some of the most powerful stories of faith under persecution.

✦ Additions to Daniel — Faith Under Fire
Includes:
• Prayer of Azariah
• Song of the Three Holy Children
• Susanna
• Bel and the Dragon
These additions emphasize God’s deliverance, the power of prayer, and the triumph of truth over corruption.

✦ 1 Esdras — Restoration & Return
A parallel account to Ezra–Nehemiah, focusing on the return from exile and the rebuilding of the Temple. Includes the famous “Three Bodyguards Debate” on what is strongest in the world.

✦ 3 Maccabees — God’s Protection in Persecution
Not about the Maccabees directly, but about God delivering Jews in Egypt from persecution under Ptolemy. Themes: prayer, divine rescue, and steadfast faith.

✦ Psalm 151 — David’s Humble Song
A short psalm attributed to David, reflecting on God choosing him, the youngest and least likely, to defeat Goliath. A beautiful meditation on God exalting the humble.

✦ Prayer of Manasseh — Repentance & Mercy
A heartfelt prayer attributed to King Manasseh during his captivity. It’s one of Scripture’s most powerful expressions of repentance and God’s mercy.

✦ 2 Esdras (4 Ezra) — Apocalyptic Visions
A deep, apocalyptic book wrestling with suffering, justice, and the end of the age. Contains visions, angelic dialogues, and prophetic imagery that influenced early Christian thought.
✦ Enoch in Scripture: The Man Who Walked With God
Enoch first appears in Genesis 5:21–24, where he is described as a man who “walked with God” so closely that he did not experience death — God “took him.” This brief but powerful statement made Enoch a symbol of intimacy with God, righteousness, and heavenly revelation. He becomes the prototype of a human being so aligned with God that the boundary between earth and heaven dissolves.

✦ Enoch in Scripture: The Man Who Walked With God
Enoch first appears in Genesis 5:21–24, where he is described as a man who “walked with God” so closely that he did not experience death — God “took him.” This brief but powerful statement made Enoch a symbol of intimacy with God, righteousness, and heavenly revelation. He becomes the prototype of a human being so aligned with God that the boundary between earth and heaven dissolves.

✦ 1 Enoch (The Book of Enoch): Visions, Angels, and Judgment
The most famous writings associated with Enoch come from 1 Enoch, an ancient Jewish text highly valued in early Christianity (quoted directly in Jude 14–15).
This book expands Enoch’s story dramatically:
• He is taken into the heavens
• Shown the secrets of creation
• Given visions of the future
• Shown the fall of the Watchers (rebellious angels)
• Taught about the coming Messiah and final judgment
1 Enoch is a sweeping apocalyptic work that shaped early Christian thought about angels, demons, the afterlife, and the Day of the Lord.

✦ Themes of Enoch’s Writings
Enoch’s writings emphasize:
• The holiness of God
• The corruption of the world
• The coming judgment
• The need for righteousness
• The cosmic battle between good and evil
• The Messiah as the Son of Man (a title Jesus uses for Himself)

 

[MoreCoffee]

A Warning Concerning the Apocrypha

Are you afraid of those books? Have you read them?

 

[NewCreation435]

No, I've never read them

 

[jswauto]

Are you afraid of those books? Have you read them?

Just so you and others know:

The Apocrypha should not be treated as the inspired Word of God.
They may be read for historical understanding or moral reflection, but they do not carry the authority, purity, or divine inspiration of the 66 books of the Bible. No doctrine should be built upon them, and they must never be placed on equal footing with Scripture.
• Doctrinal teachings not found in Scripture
• Explicit statements from their own authors denying prophetic authority

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just so you and others know:

The Apocrypha should not be treated as the inspired Word of God.
They may be read for historical understanding or moral reflection, but they do not carry the authority, purity, or divine inspiration of the 66 books of the Bible. No doctrine should be built upon them, and they must never be placed on equal footing with Scripture.
• Doctrinal teachings not found in Scripture
• Explicit statements from their own authors denying prophetic authority

You have repeated a Protestant point of view that none of the ancient churches shares.

Brief answer: the deuterocanonical books are Old Testament writings found in the Greek Septuagint that the Catholic Church definitively affirmed as canonical at the Council of Trent and that the various Eastern Orthodox churches also accept (though with some differences in scope), while Protestant traditions generally treat them as Apocrypha. The history begins with the Septuagint—a Greek translation of Hebrew scriptures widely used in the Hellenistic Jewish world and by the early Church—which preserved several books and additions not in the later Hebrew Masoretic Text; these books (commonly named Tobit, Judith, 1–2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach/Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, and the additions to Esther and Daniel) circulated in Christian communities and were included in the Latin Vulgate, producing a long-standing practical canon in the West. In the early centuries some Fathers cited or used these books freely while others (and later Jerome in the late 4th–5th centuries) expressed reservations because they were not part of the Hebrew canon, a debate that continued into the Reformation era; the Roman Catholic Church resolved the question formally at the Council of Trent (1546) by listing these books as canonical and anathematizing denial of them, thereby making them equal in authority with the other Old Testament books in Catholic doctrine and liturgy. The Eastern Orthodox tradition traces its Old Testament more directly to the Septuagint and therefore has long accepted the deuterocanonical writings, but Orthodox practice is not monolithic: different Orthodox churches and liturgical traditions include additional texts (for example, the Prayer of Manasseh, 1 Esdras, Psalm 151, 3–4 Maccabees, and in the Ethiopian Tewahedo tradition still more works) and the precise canonical lists vary by local usage and patristic reception. In Catholic theology these books are treated as inspired Scripture and are cited in the Catechism and magisterial teaching; in Orthodox theology they are read and used sacramentally within the Church’s living Tradition and liturgy, with canonical status grounded in the Church’s reception rather than a single later conciliar decree. Since the Reformation, most Protestant Bibles have omitted these books from the Old Testament canon or printed them separately as “Apocrypha,” a difference that continues to shape Bible editions, liturgical readings, and theological argument about authority, tradition, and the criteria for canonicity. .

see Deuterocanonical books - Wikipedia , Canon of Trent - Wikipedia , CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Canon of the Old Testament , - The Old Testament Apocrypha , https://orthodoxwiki.org/Apocrypha

 

[jswauto]

The book of Enoch is not part of the Apocrypha.

1. THE APOCRYPHA (DEUTEROCANONICAL BOOKS)
These are the books included in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, but not in Protestant Bibles.
A. Catholic Deuterocanonical Books (7 books + additions)
Books:
• Tobit
• Judith
• Wisdom of Solomon
• Sirach (Ecclesiasticus)
• Baruch
• 1 Maccabees
• 2 Maccabees
Additions to canonical books:
• Additions to Esther
• Additions to Daniel
• Prayer of Azariah
• Song of the Three Holy Children
• Susanna
• Bel and the Dragon

B. Eastern Orthodox Additional Books
(These appear in various Orthodox traditions)
• 1 Esdras
• 3 Maccabees
• Psalm 151
• Prayer of Manasseh
Sometimes included:
• 2 Esdras (called 3 Esdras in Slavonic tradition)
• 4 Maccabees (appendix in some Bibles)

2. THE PSEUDEPIGRAPHA (COMPLETE TRADITIONAL LIST)
These are ancient Jewish writings falsely attributed to biblical figures.
They are NOT Scripture in Jewish, Catholic, or Protestant traditions.
(Only the Ethiopian Church includes 1 Enoch.)
Below is the standard scholarly list used in biblical studies.

A. Apocalyptic Works
• 1 Enoch (Ethiopic Book of Enoch)
• 2 Enoch (Slavonic Book of Enoch)
• 3 Enoch (Hebrew Book of Enoch)
• Apocalypse of Abraham
• Apocalypse of Adam
• Apocalypse of Elijah
• Apocalypse of Zephaniah
• Apocalypse of Baruch (2 Baruch)
• Greek Apocalypse of Baruch (3 Baruch)
• Apocalypse of Daniel
• Apocalypse of Moses (Life of Adam and Eve)

B. Testaments
• Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs
• Testament of Abraham
• Testament of Isaac
• Testament of Jacob
• Testament of Job
• Testament of Moses (Assumption of Moses)
• Testament of Solomon
• Testament of Adam
• Testament of Levi (Aramaic fragments)

C. Expansions of Old Testament Narratives
• Jubilees
• Joseph and Aseneth
• Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah
• Ladder of Jacob
• Jannes and Jambres
• History of the Rechabites
• Lives of the Prophets

D. Wisdom & Philosophical Texts
• Wisdom of Solomon (Greek) — canonical in Catholic/Orthodox, but sometimes grouped in Pseudepigrapha lists for academic reasons
• Pseudo‑Phocylides
• Sentences of the Syriac Menander
• 4 Baruch (Paraleipomena of Jeremiah)

E. Psalms, Prayers, and Poetry
• Psalms of Solomon
• Odes of Solomon
• Prayer of Joseph
• Prayer of Manasseh (canonical in some traditions)

F. Fragments & Miscellaneous Works
• Aramaic Levi Document
• Damascus Document (sometimes grouped separately)
• Sibylline Oracles
• Letter of Aristeas
• 3 Corinthians (in some lists)
• Eldad and Modad
• Book of Noah (fragmentary)

SUMMARY
Apocrypha / Deuterocanon
• A small, defined set of books used by Catholic & Orthodox traditions.
• Historically tied to the Greek Septuagint.
• Never part of the Hebrew Bible.
Pseudepigrapha
• A large, diverse collection of Jewish writings (200 BC – AD 200).
• Falsely attributed to biblical heroes.
• Not Scripture in Jewish, Catholic, or Protestant traditions.
• Only 1 Enoch is canonical in the Ethiopian Church.

 

[SetFree]

You have repeated a Protestant point of view that none of the ancient churches shares.

Brief answer: the deuterocanonical books are Old Testament writings found in the Greek Septuagint that the Catholic Church definitively affirmed as canonical at the Council of Trent and that the various Eastern Orthodox churches also accept (though with some differences in scope), while Protestant traditions generally treat them as Apocrypha. The history begins with the Septuagint—a Greek translation of Hebrew scriptures widely used in the Hellenistic Jewish world and by the early Church—which preserved several books and additions not in the later Hebrew Masoretic Text; these books (commonly named Tobit, Judith, 1–2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach/Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, and the additions to Esther and Daniel) circulated in Christian communities and were included in the Latin Vulgate, producing a long-standing practical canon in the West. In the early centuries some Fathers cited or used these books freely while others (and later Jerome in the late 4th–5th centuries) expressed reservations because they were not part of the Hebrew canon, a debate that continued into the Reformation era; the Roman Catholic Church resolved the question formally at the Council of Trent (1546) by listing these books as canonical and anathematizing denial of them, thereby making them equal in authority with the other Old Testament books in Catholic doctrine and liturgy. The Eastern Orthodox tradition traces its Old Testament more directly to the Septuagint and therefore has long accepted the deuterocanonical writings, but Orthodox practice is not monolithic: different Orthodox churches and liturgical traditions include additional texts (for example, the Prayer of Manasseh, 1 Esdras, Psalm 151, 3–4 Maccabees, and in the Ethiopian Tewahedo tradition still more works) and the precise canonical lists vary by local usage and patristic reception. In Catholic theology these books are treated as inspired Scripture and are cited in the Catechism and magisterial teaching; in Orthodox theology they are read and used sacramentally within the Church’s living Tradition and liturgy, with canonical status grounded in the Church’s reception rather than a single later conciliar decree. Since the Reformation, most Protestant Bibles have omitted these books from the Old Testament canon or printed them separately as “Apocrypha,” a difference that continues to shape Bible editions, liturgical readings, and theological argument about authority, tradition, and the criteria for canonicity. .

see Deuterocanonical books - Wikipedia , Canon of Trent - Wikipedia , CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Canon of the Old Testament , - The Old Testament Apocrypha , Apocrypha - OrthodoxWiki

The Apocrypha was included in the 1st edition 1611 KJV Bible also, but that still does not mean they were inspired, which is why they have been left out of Protestant Bibles.

They are writings like jswauto has said, historical and philosophical. Philosophical because some of the writings are of a speculative nature revealing one of the problems some at the Christian school in Alexandria, Egypt had, like Origen and Clement who treated many literal Bible Scriptures as allegories only. Origen was excommunicated by the early Church for doing that.

And that Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt is where the Greek Septuagint translation from the Hebrew Old Testament originated. It purposefully leaves out the Divinity of Lord Jesus of Nazareth in several Scriptures, as some in that Alexandria school did not believe GOD came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus the Septuagint translation has corruptions. And this battle still goes on today, with modern English Bible translations relying on Wescott and Hort's 1880 new Greek translation using Alexandria manuscripts which are older than the Majority Text that make up the majority of Greek New Testament manuscripts, yet those Alexandria manuscripts show little use, and are fewer in number..

 

[Can't think of a name]

There is no way of knowing if the writers of the New Testament considered the Apocrypha inspired or not but the early Church did. There's even quite blatant evidence that Paul borrowed some material from the book of Wisdom. Borrowing doesn't denote inspiration, but there's no doubt the early church included them.

 

[SetFree]

There is no way of knowing if the writers of the New Testament considered the Apocrypha inspired or not but the early Church did. There's even quite blatant evidence that Paul borrowed some material from the book of Wisdom. Borrowing doesn't denote inspiration, but there's no doubt the early church included them.

Then there were other later pseudographia writings in the Apocrypha style that tried to creep in which contain ideas of Gnosticism.

In the 2nd century A.D., a group of Greek Gnostics claimed Christian status but twisted God's written Word to suit their own Greek philosophical aims. We still see that group today trying to taint The Bible, as movies like The Da Vinci Code is what they are about, Gnostic ideas that Jesus did not actually die on the cross, but was removed by His Apostles beforehand, and that Jesus lived a long life, married and had children. The Da Vinci Code is based on Gnostic books of the idea that there exists in the world somewhere the direct bloodline of Lord Jesus Christ, and that His power of miracles was transferred through His blood to his literal children. Those ideas are direct from the devil, and reveal pagan type philosophy based on materialism. It is also associated with Greek Neo-Platonism philosophy.

Secret initiate fraternities, like the Masonic Lodge and Rosicrucians that exist to this day, claim a heritage from the Essene order, a monastic Jewish sect that existed in the days of John the Baptist and lived in the desert which The Bible does not speak of. The Gnostics believe that both John the Baptist and Lord Jesus were members of it.

The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) wrote about the Essenes and their practices. Today's Gnostics claim in ancient Greece there also was another branch of the Essenes called the Therapeutae, who dwelt at Alexandria, Egypt where one of the Christian schools was, and were supposed healers, helpers of the poor, etc. In other words, the initiate fraternities claim those groups were the real... authors of The Bible, and the event of Jesus dying on the cross was all planned and orchestrated by them. Today they even use Bible Scripture like Matthew 13 regarding Christ telling His Apostles that their spiritual eyes and ears were blessed because it was given for them to know the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven." They use that as a pointer that Christ's Apostles were INITIATED INTO THE MYSTERIES, literally. By that, they turn Christ's Salvation upside down into a fake salvation by men working in secret, which is a working of the devil.

The ancient Greeks, Egptians, Babylonians, Romans, etc., all followed a MYSTERY RELIGION that involved initiation inside temples. One who wanted to join would be put under probation for a time as a neophyte. Then if accepted, they were slowly introduced into the 'Mysteries', which supposedly involve another set of laws of the spirit world that can affect the nature of this earthly world (i.e., miracles and such). The neophyte would go through progressing degrees of initiation.

These fraternities would then later create a separation between the Lesser Mysteries and the Greater Mysteries. The highest members (controllers) only got into the Greater Mysteries level. The orthodox Jew Adam Weishaupt who started the Illuminati Order of Bavaria in the 18th century, explained in one of his personal letters to another high member, how an unwated lower member that wanted to enter into the order's Greater Mysteries level would be given an initiation, and told to spit on a relic of Jesus on a cross. If the petitioner refused because of his Faith in Christ, he would be told that is well and good, for no true initiate and believer on Christ would do that, but then they would still not be allowed to enter the Greater Mysteries. But if the one petitioning for entry instead spit on that cross, he would be told that's well and good because that is only a symbol and means nothing, and then they knew that was the type of person they wanted... in the higher membership, showing a willingness to do 'anything' for the Order. (This is documented in the British Mason John Robison's 1789 book Proofs Of A Conspiracy).

 

[Can't think of a name]

Then there were other later pseudographia writings in the Apocrypha style that tried to creep in which contain ideas of Gnosticism.

In the 2nd century A.D., a group of Greek Gnostics claimed Christian status but twisted God's written Word to suit their own Greek philosophical aims. We still see that group today trying to taint The Bible, as movies like The Da Vinci Code is what they are about, Gnostic ideas that Jesus did not actually die on the cross, but was removed by His Apostles beforehand, and that Jesus lived a long life, married and had children. The Da Vinci Code is based on Gnostic books of the idea that there exists in the world somewhere the direct bloodline of Lord Jesus Christ, and that His power of miracles was transferred through His blood to his literal children. Those ideas are direct from the devil, and reveal pagan type philosophy based on materialism. It is also associated with Greek Neo-Platonism philosophy.

Secret initiate fraternities, like the Masonic Lodge and Rosicrucians that exist to this day, claim a heritage from the Essene order, a monastic Jewish sect that existed in the days of John the Baptist and lived in the desert which The Bible does not speak of. The Gnostics believe that both John the Baptist and Lord Jesus were members of it.

The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) wrote about the Essenes and their practices. Today's Gnostics claim in ancient Greece there also was another branch of the Essenes called the Therapeutae, who dwelt at Alexandria, Egypt where one of the Christian schools was, and were supposed healers, helpers of the poor, etc. In other words, the initiate fraternities claim those groups were the real... authors of The Bible, and the event of Jesus dying on the cross was all planned and orchestrated by them. Today they even use Bible Scripture like Matthew 13 regarding Christ telling His Apostles that their spiritual eyes and ears were blessed because it was given for them to know the "mysteries of the kingdom of heaven." They use that as a pointer that Christ's Apostles were INITIATED INTO THE MYSTERIES, literally. By that, they turn Christ's Salvation upside down into a fake salvation by men working in secret, which is a working of the devil.

The ancient Greeks, Egptians, Babylonians, Romans, etc., all followed a MYSTERY RELIGION that involved initiation inside temples. One who wanted to join would be put under probation for a time as a neophyte. Then if accepted, they were slowly introduced into the 'Mysteries', which supposedly involve another set of laws of the spirit world that can affect the nature of this earthly world (i.e., miracles and such). The neophyte would go through progressing degrees of initiation.

These fraternities would then later create a separation between the Lesser Mysteries and the Greater Mysteries. The highest members (controllers) only got into the Greater Mysteries level. The orthodox Jew Adam Weishaupt who started the Illuminati Order of Bavaria in the 18th century, explained in one of his personal letters to another high member, how an unwated lower member that wanted to enter into the order's Greater Mysteries level would be given an initiation, and told to spit on a relic of Jesus on a cross. If the petitioner refused because of his Faith in Christ, he would be told that is well and good, for no true initiate and believer on Christ would do that, but then they would still not be allowed to enter the Greater Mysteries. But if the one petitioning for entry instead spit on that cross, he would be told that's well and good because that is only a symbol and means nothing, and then they knew that was the type of person they wanted... in the higher membership, showing a willingness to do 'anything' for the Order. (This is documented in the British Mason John Robison's 1789 book Proofs Of A Conspiracy).

I really don't understand how what I wrote before has any connection to your reply here.

 

[SetFree]

I really don't understand how what I wrote before has any connection to your reply here.

Well, you should... have understood me, because that history I mentioned is one of the reasons why the Apocrypha is included in some early Bibles, and then removed. Some of the books of the Apocrypha contain mystical philosophy like the Greeks had. And especially later works written in the style like the Apocrypha books.

And today, there's still a Bible translation war going on between scholars that follow the old Alexandrian school manuscripts which was influenced by Greek philosophy, just as the Greek Septuagint Old Testament translation also is.

These are all tentacles from the crept in unawares that reach beyond what you were saying, but are from the basis of what you were saying about the early Apostles ("writers of the new testament"), and whether they knew if the Apocrypha was inspired or not. Yeah, those like Apostle Paul had to have known, because he was a scholar of the Hebrew and knew the Scriptures better than all of them, and even remarked how there were fakes that had crept into the early Church that were passing off letters as if written by the Apostles (See 2 Thess.2; 2 Cor.11).

 

[Can't think of a name]

Well, you should... have understood me, because that history I mentioned is one of the reasons why the Apocrypha is included in some early Bibles, and then removed. Some of the books of the Apocrypha contain mystical philosophy like the Greeks had. And especially later works written in the style like the Apocrypha books.

And today, there's still a Bible translation war going on between scholars that follow the old Alexandrian school manuscripts which was influenced by Greek philosophy, just as the Greek Septuagint Old Testament translation also is.

These are all tentacles from the crept in unawares that reach beyond what you were saying, but are from the basis of what you were saying about the early Apostles ("writers of the new testament"), and whether they knew if the Apocrypha was inspired or not. Yeah, those like Apostle Paul had to have known, because he was a scholar of the Hebrew and knew the Scriptures better than all of them, and even remarked how there were fakes that had crept into the early Church that were passing off letters as if written by the Apostles (See 2 Thess.2; 2 Cor.11).

So are you a KJV only person? I have read about the manuscript issues from David Cloud's materials online. I was saved reading the KJB. I don't think I'd go as far as KJV only but there are some real problems involved with regard to those Alexandrian manuscripts. What was really off putting was that older Christian KJ only guy who was a racist and nasty man, I don't remember his name now but I believe he had a church in Pensacola.

 

[SetFree]

So are you a KJV only person? I have read about the manuscript issues from David Cloud's materials online. I was saved reading the KJB. I don't think I'd go as far as KJV only but there are some real problems involved with regard to those Alexandrian manuscripts. What was really off putting was that older Christian KJ only guy who was a racist and nasty man, I don't remember his name now but I believe he had a church in Pensacola.

I use BibleSoft software, and the KJV is my main Bible I use, but I also refer to other English Bible translations. So the "KJV only" label is actually a kind of oxymoron term.

There is good reason to be wary of the modern Bible translations that use Wescott and Hort's new Greek translation, because they were vehemently against the Greek Traditional Text which was used for previous New Testament Bible translations. They promoted the Alexandrian text just because its Greek manuscripts are older, even though fewer in number, and don't show heavy use like the Traditional Text does. And just because the Greek Majority Text manuscripts only go back to around the 3rd century A.D., that doesn't mean they are not actually older, and that the ones existing are only copies.

Furthermore, the New King James Versioin (NKJ) uses some of the Alexandrian texts and Wescott and Hort's new 1880 Greek translation. So the NKJ Bible is not a REAL King James Bible anymore, because the 1611 KJV only used the Traditional Greek Text, the Textus Receptus or Received Text, for its New Testament. Nelson publishers sure took a payoff dive with that one.

See the following link for good scholarly documentation on thiis battle...



As far as the guy in Pensecola, I don't know who you are talking about. There's many preachers out there pushing doctrines of men, that preach as a business. Lord Jesus called them hirelings in John 10. Those kind of preachers wouldn't be successful if their congregations would learn to study their Bible for themselves. It is an amazing thing, our public education system, when one looks at it from the perspective of each person learning how study God's Word for themselves. I can't help but think our Heavenly Father and His Son are behind that.

 

[SetFree]

I really don't understand how what I wrote before has any connection to your reply here.

I think I need to explain further what's going on with these Jude 4 crept in unawares that have been trying to influence God's written Word, particularly by the Alexandria, Egypt school which did the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.

Those at the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt had a problem with claiming Lord Jesus is Divine GOD The Son, one of 3 Persons in The Godhead.

This argument was one of the reasons for the later Nicene Creed that declares the Trinity of The Godhead of God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit. Non-Trinitarians to this day still disagree that Lord Jesus of Nazareth was Divine, and instead claim Jesus was created by GOD. That was one of the ideas of the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt, and is why their Alexandrian New Testament texts omits the Divinity of Lord Jesus Christ.

Even on this very Forum there exists some that reject that Jesus is God and the Nicene Creed, even though they marked they accepted the Nicene Creed in their member description.

The worse group of Non-Trinitarians are groups like the Gnostics and Greek Neo-Platonists, and the secret initiate fraternities. They dwell in all Christian Churches, and even on Bible translation councils.

The extreme groups, especially the secret initiate fraternities, believe in a type of self-done-salvation. They believe Lord Jesus was just a normal man like us and not Divine, and that Jesus was simply highly advanced in His occult knowledge and spiritual skills that He developed. That is what they believe their teaching of the old Mysteries from the pagan Mystery Schools of ancient Egypt, Greece, Babylon, etc., is about, i.e., developing one's self so as to achieve mastery of this life, and by that becoming one's own God.

In reality though, those ideas they are teaching are straight out of the serpent's mouth after Eve in God's Garden, that one could become their own God by partaking of the tree in the midst of the garden, Satan's tree. Those mystery schools even have a higher initiation called 'The Dark Night of The Soul' where they teach that each initiate must go through their own trials and tribulations by theirself, with no one's help, going it alone, and by that being 'reborn' through all that, on the way to becoming one's own God. That is why they use the idea of a coffer (like the stone coffer in the Great Pyramid) to represent a type of rebirth of their soul having gone through all that by theirselves. This is why they will not declare Lord Jesus as Divine God and part of The Godhead, because it would mean they could never achieve God status on their own. So they claim things like Jesus was one of them, and highly advanced, a blueprint to follow only in the sense of progressive esoteric development through initiation and occult exercises and practice. That is why they also make the false claim that Lord Jesus did not really die on the cross, but that His Apostles removed Him before He could die, and that Jesus lived a long life, married, and had children. That is actually taught in the higher degrees of the initiate fraternities, and is why they claim all religions are equal paths to Godship.

That is how the priests of Egypt in the days of Moses were able to copy some of the miracles that God did through Moses. They penetrated laws involving the Spirit realm to learn and do those things, which God allows them up to a point, but only enough to where they deceive themselves.

That is our real... enemy here on earth today. And they have existed since the days of Adam. Jesus called them the "synagogue of Satan" in Revelation, and as the "tares" in His parable of the tares of the field. Many of them hide among Judah, but are not real Jews of the seed of Judah, but only claim to be.

 

[Frankj]

Jesus called them the "synagogue of Satan" in Revelation, and as the "tares" in His parable of the tares of the field. Many of them hide among Judah, but are not real Jews of the seed of Judah, but only claim to be.

I've heard a number of different things said about this, would you delve deeper into this and which ones you have examined and accepted and which you have examined and rejected and either way why?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Apocrypha was included in the 1st edition 1611 KJV Bible also, but that still does not mean they were inspired,

inclusion i the KJV is not and has never been a valid test of canonicity.

 

[SetFree]

I've heard a number of different things said about this, would you delve deeper into this and which ones you have examined and accepted and which you have examined and rejected and either way why?

You can do your own Bible study homework; I'm not going to spoon feed you when you can simply look up the Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 Scripture where Lord Jesus pointed to the "synagogue of Satan" being false Jews. Matthew 13 about the "tares" is also another pointer to them by Lord Jesus, as those of Jude 4 also is. And I have already spotlighted plenty from Old Testament scripture of how they crept in among the children of Israel. So do your own homework.

 

[SetFree]

inclusion i the KJV is not and has never been a valid test of canonicity.

Yes, I agree. I'd say because some of the KJV translators leaned towards some of the beliefs of the Catholic Church, that may be why they were included in the 1st edition.

 

[Frankj]

That type

You can do your own Bible study homework; I'm not going to spoon feed you when you can simply look up the Revelation 2:9 and Revelation 3:9 Scripture where Lord Jesus pointed to the "synagogue of Satan" being false Jews. Matthew 13 about the "tares" is also another pointer to them by Lord Jesus, as those of Jude 4 also is. And I have already spotlighted plenty from Old Testament scripture of how they crept in among the children of Israel. So do your own homework.

This type of answer is one I generally associate with Christian Identity, is that your stand or did you mean something else?

Do you believe the Ashkenazi who are the predominant Jews in Israel today as well as throughout the world are the true Jews of prophecy or that they are not?

If not, then who are true Jews from your POV?