Has Science Gone Too Far ?

[Josiah]

Yes, yes, we know that science has been corrupting God's way for many, many years. People have even taken to body modifications. The question is, since scripture tells us that our bodies are temples for the Holy Spirit, do you think the Holy Spirit will dwell in an body defiled with an unclean animal like a pig or a rodent?

I don't think this "dwelling" is physical or biological. Our DNA is not identical (it's different for nearly every one of the 7.5 billion people on the planet) - there is no ONE human body. We modify our body every time we eat, drink, move, take medications..... IMO, if one has a soul (again, not a physical body part.... NOTHING in our DNA about this) then one certainly may be given the gift of faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don't think the Holy Spirit was hindered by many humans loosing much of their pigment and becoming blonde/blue like me (we still have a soul) or my father in law who has an artificial heart value. But perhaps we disagree.


My post (which you quoted, thank you) addresses my opinion of the morality of scientific research. But I might add, I doubt that genetic modifications can eliminate the soul - the soul is not physical and not governed by DNA and thus cannot be genetically modified. IMO.


- Josiah

 

[Brighten04]

I don't think this "dwelling" is physical or biological. Our DNA is not identical (it's different for nearly every one of the 7.5 billion people on the planet) - there is no ONE human body. We modify our body every time we eat, drink, move, take medications..... IMO, if one has a soul (again, not a physical body part.... NOTHING in our DNA about this) then one certainly may be given the gift of faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don't think the Holy Spirit was hindered by many humans loosing much of their pigment and becoming blonde/blue like me (we still have a soul) or my father in law who has an artificial heart value. But perhaps we disagree.


My post (which you quoted, thank you) addresses my opinion of the morality of scientific research. But I might add, I doubt that genetic modifications can eliminate the soul - the soul is not physical and not governed by DNA and thus cannot be genetically modified. IMO.


- Josiah

OK, so the prohibitions our Father placed in the beginning do not apply? Is that what you are saying? I am just exploring possibilities. I do not believe our Father placed these prohibitions in vain. Defiling the brick and mortar temple in the Old Testament times was considered a great blasphemy. How much more the human body created in Gods image?

 

[Josiah]

OK, so the prohibitions our Father placed in the beginning do not apply? Is that what you are saying? I am just exploring possibilities. I do not believe our Father placed these prohibitions in vain. Defiling the brick and mortar temple in the Old Testament times was considered a great blasphemy. How much more the human body created in Gods image?

What modifications are you speaking of? IMO, God said nothing about modifying DNA or doing anything about it. Indeed, God commanded circumcision (although not via genetic engineering); it seems to me God is not opposed to modifying the body.

I don't believe that changes in human DNA mandate the abandonment of one's soul or render God impotent to give the gift of faith and the Holy Spirit. I don't believe genetic engineering can remove the soul since the soul is not a function of DNA. Perhaps we disagree.

But again, my post dealt with the issue of the morality of scientific research. Again, my entirely LAYMAN opinion is that research generally doesn't go "too far" the problem is not that but rather evil people applying the learning for evil causes.

I might add that I don't think being "in God's image" has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with DNA or biology. Only Mormons hold that God is a man, with biology and DNA. Christians historically have held that God is not physical. But that is a discussion entirely outside the realm of this thread; if you want to discuss whether God is biological/physical, my humble recommendation my friend would be a different thread in a different sub-forum.

Again, just my perspective.


Pax Christi


- Josiah

 

[Brighten04]

What modifications are you speaking of?

God said nothing about modifying DNA or doing anything about it.

Hybridization mainly. God did command that each specie reproduce after it's own kind. I think you understand that.

I don't believe that changes in human DNA mandate the abandonment of one's soul or render God impotent to give the gift of faith and the Holy Spirit. I don't believe genetic engineering can remove the soul since the soul is not a function of DNA. Perhaps we disagree.

Perhaps you are right, but what if you are not? With these new technologies, it is possible that profane things can be created that are neither human nor animal. This prospect is very scary imho.

But again, my post dealt with the issue of the morality of scientific research. Again, my entirely LAYMAN opinion is that research generally doesn't go "too far" the problem is not that but rather evil people applying the learning for evil causes.

You do not have to keep repeating this. We heard you.

 

[Josiah]

Perhaps you are right, but what if you are not?

Of course, ALL here are expressing lay opinions..... ALL of us could be entirely, wholly wrong.

That said, I suspect in order for DNA modifications to render God and the Holy Spriit impotent.... in order to destroy the soul, the soul would need to be an aspect of our DNA, it would have to be biological. I don't think that is the case. If you do, the genome has been pretty well mapped, which do you believe is the soul? And if not, if the soul is not a function of DNA, how would modifying our DNA in any way (say by races intermarrying), how would that kill the soul?

With these new technologies, it is possible that profane things can be created that are neither human nor animal. This prospect is very scary imho.

Again, we've been modifying DNA for thousands of years. You pet and nearly all your food has been modified from anything God made (ie found in nature)... even the flowers in your yard in some cases. Most of these were intentional and done for purely economic reasons (they've gone a long way in permitting the human population to eat; they'd likely be a LOT less food in the world without these genetic modifications). I don't think such - per se - is evil. Perhaps we disagree.


COULD such genetic modifications be done by EVIL people for EVIL purposes? Sure. I'm not sure that's a problem of learning but a problem of morality; in other words, the "problem" is not that our human ignorance lessens but that evil people use such for evil reasons. Perhaps I need to give an example: Let's say science discovers that if you do "X" to a certain place in the human genome, the person dies.... I don't think LEARNING that is evil or immoral (particularly if that was not the purpose for the research). On the other hand, some Hitler-like person developing something to add to the water that causes that change - and employs that thus killing the enemy - THAT in my view is immoral. But my point would be: the problem is not with the lessening of ignorance, the problem is not with the unbinded quest for knowledge, it's with evil people doing evil things with that: it's a MORAL issue, not a science one.


IMO, in order to remove the soul from the human DNA, someone would need to identify it on the (fairly well mapped) human genome. That hasn't happened (unless you know otherwise) and frankly, I sincerely doubt it can be since I don't believe the soul IS biological, not a biological organ of the body (although I'm aware some - in ages past - believed that). Again, perhaps we disagree.


Yup, we are just tossing about our entirely lay (and quite possibly wrong) opinions.... I ain't claiming any special (much less absolute) knowledge here...



Thank you!


- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

I believe that this has made some of the things in Revelation possible rather than being something else other than reality. Such as the tormenters thhat rise from the depths for six months. Just a thought but I do agree that we should not be messing around with this stuff just because we can

 

[Brighten04]

Of course, ALL here are expressing lay opinions..... ALL of us could be entirely, wholly wrong.

True.

That said, I suspect in order for DNA modifications to render God and the Holy Spriit impotent.... in order to destroy the soul, the soul would need to be an aspect of our DNA, it would have to be biological. I don't think that is the case. If you do, the genome has been pretty well mapped, which do you believe is the soul? And if not, if the soul is not a function of DNA, how would modifying our DNA in any way (say by races intermarrying), how would that kill the soul?

Humans marrying humans is not what I am questioning brother (races intermarrying). It is humans mixing their DNA with animals ,especially unclean animals, that disturbs me. Now science says the pineal gland is suppose to be the seat of the soul. That gland is composed of our DNA. Somehow our soul became contaminated with the sin nature.

MO, in order to remove the soul from the human DNA, someone would need to identify it on the (fairly well mapped) human genome. That hasn't happened (unless you know otherwise) and frankly, I sincerely doubt it can be since I don't believe the soul IS biological, not a biological organ of the body (although I'm aware some - in ages past - believed that). Again, perhaps we disagree.

I understand man is created in God's image. The whole man, spirit, soul, and body. What happens to that image in hybridization with animals? Seriously, Think about it.

 

[Josiah]

Now science says the pineal gland is suppose to be the seat of the soul.

What? Could you refer me to whatever science journal article you are referring to?

Could you give me the map of the human genome which has been identified as the "soul?"

And if the soul has been proven by science to be a part of the human DNA, are you suggesting some scientists are attempting to remove or alter it?

That gland is composed of our DNA

Every cell in our body has our DNA.

Could you give the reference to where it has been scientifically shown where on our DNA the "soul" is located? I'm kind of a loss here, not following you at all.

Somehow our soul became contaminated with the sin nature

Okay. But "sin" is not a gene in our DNA and cannot be altered by genetic engineering.... but you seem to be suggesting that the soul and sin ARE present in our human genome, could you please give the scientific reference for this? I'm be interested where it is on our DNA.... if it's unique to human DNA strains and who is trying to eliminate or alter it. Of course, this all could render Jesus and Christianity irrelevant: all could be made sinless just by (what could be a very simple, minor) scientific alteration.

I understand man is created in God's image

I agree. It just has nothing to do with physics or biology. Only the LDS believes that God is a biological being, with a body and DNA.


?????



- Josiah

 

[Brighten04]

What? Could you refer me to whatever science journal article you are referring to?

There are a few. But you can google it yourself. I didn't make it up. But here is one. If you are really interested you should research it yourself.
http://www.collective-evolution.com...which-seats-your-soul-meet-your-pineal-gland/

Okay. But "sin" is not a gene in our DNA and cannot be altered by genetic engineering.... but you seem to be suggesting that the soul and sin ARE present in our human genome, could you please give the scientific reference for this? I'm be interested where it is on our DNA.... if it's unique to human DNA strains and who is trying to eliminate or alter it. Of course, this all could render Jesus and Christianity irrelevant: all could be made sinless just by (what could be a very simple, minor) scientific alteration.

The sin nature is passed from generation to generation from the first man.Sinful man is not in God's likeness. Scripture says this of Adam
Genesis 5:3
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Note Seth was not in the likeness of God, but in sinful Adam's likeness.So sin is in the bloodline of mankind. Blood has DNA.

I agree. It just has nothing to do with physics or biology. Only the LDS
believes that God is a biological being, with a body and DNA.

FYI I am Baptist not LDS.

 

[Brighten04]

This is an interesting video that may answer some questions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-acQz_wBx7E

 

[Josiah]

http://www.collective-evolution.com...which-seats-your-soul-meet-your-pineal-gland/

Note a single reference to even one scientific study - much less some overwhelming scientific conclusion. Here's what it CLAIMS (with nothing given to support it), "Seventeenth-Century French philosopher Rene Descartes coined this organ, called the pineal gland, as the “seat of the soul”. That doesn't mean there is scientific proof of such, it doesn't mean that it's been mapped on the human genome, it was just a phrase coined by a philosopher in the 17th Century.

The sin nature is passed from generation to generation from the first man.Sinful man is not in God's likeness. Scripture says this of Adam
Genesis 5:3
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

Note Seth was not in the likeness of God, but in sinful Adam's likeness.So sin is in the bloodline of mankind. Blood has DNA.

ALL our cells have our DNA.

I don't believe there is anything in the Bible or in science that indicates that "sin" is a gene in our DNA. Thus nothing to indicate that genetic engineering could eliminate or alter "sin."

The THEORY that sin is passed on genetically (from father to children) comes not from the Bible and certainly not from science. It has nothing to do with genetic engineering or human DNA. It was a THEORY of St. Augustine. While I agree that our children are born in OUR image (that includes sin), I do not agree that this is a physical, biological thing - much less to be found in our DNA. If that was a case, we could probably render Jesus (and God) irrelevant by simply altering or "turning off" that gene. I don't this that's possible because I don't think this likely has anything to do with our DNA.

I am Baptist not LDS.

Good. Then you agree with me that God is not physical, not biological, has no DNA. Thus "image" has nothing to do with that. We cannot share God's DNA because He has none; we cannot "look" like Him because He doesn't look like anything (although, being able to do anything, He can APPEAR); we don't share His biology because He has none. God is spirit. God is outside science (although, being God, He can enter it).


Interesting discussion....


Good to have you back!!!!



- Josiah

 

[Brighten04]

I don't believe there is anything in the Bible or in science that indicates that "sin" is a gene in our DNA. Thus nothing to indicate that genetic engineering could eliminate or alter "sin."

You don't have to believe it. That is your prerogative to believe whatever you want to believe. But scripture says the sin nature is passed through Adam. How is it passed?

The THEORY that sin is passed on genetically (from father to children) comes not from the Bible and certainly not from science.

Man, I gave you scripture that proves it. It is not a theory. How do you think sin is passed?

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:KJV

If that was a case, we could probably render Jesus (and God) irrelevant by simply altering or "turning off" that gene. I don't this that's possible because I don't think this likely has anything to do with our DNA.

Anything is possible. God did destroy the world once with the flood. Who knows what they would have discovered. God did interfere at the Tower of Babel and confused the languages and he said this.

Gen. 11:6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

[Good. Then you agree with me that God is not physical, not biological, has no DNA. /QUOTE]

Lord Jesus is very physical, biological.

 

[Josiah]

Note a single reference to even one scientific study - much less some overwhelming scientific conclusion. Here's what it CLAIMS (with nothing given to support it), "Seventeenth-Century French philosopher Rene Descartes coined this organ, called the pineal gland, as the “seat of the soul”. That doesn't mean there is scientific proof of such, it doesn't mean that it's been mapped on the human genome, it was just a phrase coined by a philosopher in the 17th Century.



ALL our cells have our DNA. I don't believe there is anything in the Bible or in science that indicates that "sin" is a gene in our DNA. Thus nothing to indicate that genetic engineering could eliminate or alter "sin."

The THEORY that sin is passed on genetically (from father to children) comes not from the Bible and certainly not from science. It has nothing to do with genetic engineering or human DNA. It was a THEORY of St. Augustine. While I agree that our children are born in OUR image (that includes sin), I do not agree that this is a physical, biological thing - much less to be found in our DNA. If that was a case, we could probably render Jesus (and God) irrelevant by simply altering or "turning off" that gene. I don't this that's possible because I don't think this likely has anything to do with our DNA.



.

scripture says the sin nature is passed through Adam.

I agree.

How is it passed?

The Bible doesn't say.

I find nothing to support a claim that via DNA. You've offered nothing.

I find it extremely unlikely. If it were, we would not need a Savior, Jesus would have been the wrong response. God would need to change our DNA - and if He didn't, it's pretty likely man could. You suggested, I think, that the "sin" gene had been identified (I'm still waiting for that scientific proof and identification) - so being mapped on the human genome, all we'd need to do is remove that gene and the result would be absolute moral perfection (as God) and holiness (equal to God).

How do you think sin is passed?

The Bible doesn't say. As you point out, what we think is irrelevant. But nothing has been shown that sin is a gene on the human genome. You indicated this has been proven, but I'm waiting for that report. I'm curious to see where the gene is located on our DNA, what it is associated with, how easy it would be to biologically turn it off: thus science becoming the real Savior that actually results in the termination of sin - here and now.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Yes. Nothing about this being via our DNA. Nothing about being inherited in a biological sense, as if sin is the mandated result of a gene. God didn't say how it's passed on.

Lord Jesus is very physical, biological.

Yes, but Jesus is God AND man. While I agree that His two natures are full and I agree in the communication of attributes between these two natures, I don't agree that the two natures are blended or merged into ONE nature (a heresy condemned repeatly) so it cannot be that the LDS are right and GOD is a flesh and blood human with the human genome. God is spirit - not an elevated, evolved man. I think Baptists fully agree with this. It's just Mormons who teach that God is a man and that we "look" like God because God is a man.


But I think we got seriously sidetracted from the op. While I'm certainly in favor of morality, I don't think the "problem" rests with the quest for knowledge. And I don't agree that biologists are the REAL Saviors who can actually eliminate sin from mankind by altering our DNA. I think those who APPLY knowledge can (and at times do) MISapply this.... but that's a problem what how the knowledge is used - not with the quest for knowledge. Man discovered fire - is that EVIL? I don't think so. CAN this knowledge of fire be misapplied, be use with evil intent? Sure. PErhaps we disagree.


Thank you!


- Josiah

 

[Brighten04]

But I think we got seriously sidetracted from the op. While I'm certainly in favor of morality, I don't think the "problem" rests with the quest for knowledge. And I don't agree that biologists are the REAL Saviors who can actually eliminate sin from mankind by altering our DNA. I think those who APPLY knowledge can (and at times do) MISapply this.... but that's a problem what how the knowledge is used - not with the quest for knowledge. Man discovered fire - is that EVIL? I don't think so. CAN this knowledge of fire be misapplied, be use with evil intent? Sure. PErhaps we disagree.

I think we did get away from the OP. I have heard it said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I don't think the intent of the majority of scientists is to do evil. But, a lot of them do not recognize that there is a divine design and a command for every specie to reproduce after it's own kind. Also they do not acknowledge Our Father as God, and that He has prohibited the mixing of kinds. They have become vain in their imaginations. As in the days of Noah their thoughts are even corrupt.

 

[Brighten04]

Are any of you aware of the transhuman agenda that is afoot in the world today? There are plans afoot not only to merge the human body with animals, but also to merge with machines I asked in another thread What is man?. What is it that makes mankind fundamentally human? What would it take to make mankind more than or less than human? I hope some of you watched the video I posted.

 

[Sword7]

Bacon goes in and then comes out. I was thinking of someone with an organ that had animal DNA mixed with human DNA.

like the abomination of the crossing of demons and humans in genesis (if that understanding is correct ) and the fact that god said that everything brings forth 'after its own kind ' (good bye evolution theory ) those who pursue such things have no reverence for god and are the children of disobedience in whom the spirit of this world works.

 

[Brighten04]

like the abomination of the crossing of demons and humans in genesis (if that understanding is correct ) and the fact that god said that everything brings forth 'after its own kind ' (good bye evolution theory ) those who pursue such things have no reverence for god and are the children of disobedience in whom the spirit of this world works.

Exactly! God destroyed the Earth in the flood because of this. Evidently He disapproves.

 

[Sword7]

Exactly! God destroyed the Earth in the flood because of this. Evidently He disapproves.

he certainly does .

it is an interesting enough topic . man kind who walks in disobedience to god (be they churched or not makes ZERO difference ) is under the strong influence of both SELF delusion and SPIRITUAL delusion .
self delusion in that Those who hear the word and do not do it , deceive themselves .
and
Spiritual In that by being in disobedience to the Lord Jesus they are walking -"in the course of this world according to the prince of the power of the air ,the spirit that works In the children of disobedience " eph 2.

we observe the extremity of this antichrist spirit at work in the minds of sinful mankind in efforts such as the goings on at the cern project with the hadron collider .
they seek ,in their own words , "the building blocks of life "
Now it takes no rocket science to discern why one would want such a thing . its so they can "build life " they seek to Not die they seek to overcome death ,they seek to beat God -it is the epitome of spiritual insanity and rebellion it is the tower of babel all over again

 

[Brighten04]

he certainly does .


it is an interesting enough topic . man kind who walks in disobedience to god (be they churched or not makes ZERO difference ) is under the strong influence of both SELF delusion and SPIRITUAL delusion .
self delusion in that Those who hear the word and do not do it , deceive themselves .
and
Spiritual In that by being in disobedience to the Lord Jesus they are walking -"in the course of this world according to the prince of the power of the air ,the spirit that works In the children of disobedience " eph 2.

we observe the extremity of this antichrist spirit at work in the minds of sinful mankind in efforts such as the goings on at the cern project with the hadron collider .
they seek ,in their own words , "the building blocks of life "
Now it takes no rocket science to discern why one would want such a thing . its so they can "build life " they seek to Not die they seek to overcome death ,they seek to beat God -it is the epitome of spiritual insanity and rebellion it is the tower of babel all over again

Amen! Yes it IS the tower of Babel all over again. Even Christians are deceived by this delusion and do not see the handwriting on the wall. Life is precious, but Satan and his perverted men want to corrupt God's way. Why? People need to understand that Satan hates mankind. From reading the scriptures, I believe they WILL be able to extend their sinful lives indefinitely. Scripture says the time will come when men will seek death but death will flee from them.

 

[Sword7]

Amen! Yes it IS the tower of Babel all over again. Even Christians are deceived by this delusion and do not see the handwriting on the wall. Life is precious, but Satan and his perverted men want to corrupt God's way. Why? People need to understand that Satan hates mankind. From reading the scriptures, I believe they WILL be able to extend their sinful lives indefinitely. Scripture says the time will come when men will seek death but death will flee from them.

if this were a doctrinal discussion id get cautious now . but i understand it as a reflective discussion . and that is a very interesting take on that verse ....