Frozen embryos are people

tango

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Taken out of context (just like many Bible verses) you'd be right but I've said throughout that we're talking about zero brain functionality and that's the context you're ignoring here.

If there's brain function then whatever the circumstances, coma, life support machine whatever then you still have a human person.

No brain function or no brain = no person

... except that you offer other standards which are unrelated to brain function.
 

Mercury

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"We should likewise not apply human rights to a developing life form that does not have a brain."

Ok, so no brain, not human..... yet. But if left to develop, it will soon become human, at which point it WILL have human rights. And by messing around with it you're robbing it of its potential humanity.

Ok so you've misused the terminology here.

"Ok, so no brain, not human" is incorrect. The developing body, as already stated upthread has human DNA and thus is of human species, Homo Sapiens. It IS Human. That is what it is to be a human. A life form with human DNA.

But it is NOT a person.

"But if left to develop, it will soon become human, at which point it WILL have human rights"

It will always be human because it has human DNA. If left to develop, it will eventually become a human person at which point it will have human rights.

So the core of the matter is the point at which is goes from being just a life form with human DNA to becoming a real human person.
That point, I submit, is once a functioning brain has developed, not before.

"And by messing around with it you're robbing it of its potential humanity."

Yes, if you terminate an early life form of human species or indeed any other species you are preventing the potential resulting product from appearing later on. But think that through. If you think it's wrong to terminate a human species life form that is NOT a human person then you need to be consistent and apply this throughout.

That means that every single sperm currently sitting inside a man's sack, is to be given human rights. Not one can be terminated for every one of them is of human species with human DNA and every one of them has the potential or possibility to develop into a human person later on.

Similarly every female egg in existence would also need to be assigned human rights and so it would be murder to do anything that would or could adversely impact those eggs. That means drinking alcohol or smoking for example would have to be deemed potential forms of murder of female eggs. So too taking drugs and so on.

All of that is of course patently ridiculous isn't it?!

In fact humans are designed in such a way that the male sperm, by design, lives a certain time inside a man and then perishes still inside the man and then gets replaced with new different sperm. That's a rolling continual process. By Nature, by design, LIVING HUMAN SPECIES sperm will die, perish, be terminated completely naturally irrespective of the fact that every one of those sperm has the potential to eventually become a human person. The same is true of female eggs.

So this is why it is absurd to look at mere human species life forms and think of them as people or persons before they have developed a functioning brain. They simply are not people or persons at that point. They have potential, just as sperm and eggs do, but applying human rights to things that are not people is wrong and very silly.
 

Mercury

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... except that you offer other standards which are unrelated to brain function.

Not aware of doing so. Can you elucidate please?
 

Lamb

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Ok so you've misused the terminology here.

"Ok, so no brain, not human" is incorrect. The developing body, as already stated upthread has human DNA and thus is of human species, Homo Sapiens. It IS Human. That is what it is to be a human. A life form with human DNA.

But it is NOT a person.

"But if left to develop, it will soon become human, at which point it WILL have human rights"

It will always be human because it has human DNA. If left to develop, it will eventually become a human person at which point it will have human rights.

So the core of the matter is the point at which is goes from being just a life form with human DNA to becoming a real human person.
That point, I submit, is once a functioning brain has developed, not before.

"And by messing around with it you're robbing it of its potential humanity."

Yes, if you terminate an early life form of human species or indeed any other species you are preventing the potential resulting product from appearing later on. But think that through. If you think it's wrong to terminate a human species life form that is NOT a human person then you need to be consistent and apply this throughout.

That means that every single sperm currently sitting inside a man's sack, is to be given human rights. Not one can be terminated for every one of them is of human species with human DNA and every one of them has the potential or possibility to develop into a human person later on.

Similarly every female egg in existence would also need to be assigned human rights and so it would be murder to do anything that would or could adversely impact those eggs. That means drinking alcohol or smoking for example would have to be deemed potential forms of murder of female eggs. So too taking drugs and so on.

All of that is of course patently ridiculous isn't it?!

In fact humans are designed in such a way that the male sperm, by design, lives a certain time inside a man and then perishes still inside the man and then gets replaced with new different sperm. That's a rolling continual process. By Nature, by design, LIVING HUMAN SPECIES sperm will die, perish, be terminated completely naturally irrespective of the fact that every one of those sperm has the potential to eventually become a human person. The same is true of female eggs.

So this is why it is absurd to look at mere human species life forms and think of them as people or persons before they have developed a functioning brain. They simply are not people or persons at that point. They have potential, just as sperm and eggs do, but applying human rights to things that are not people is wrong and very silly.

What is the difference in YOUR definition between a Human and a Person?
 

Mercury

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What is the difference in YOUR definition between a Human and a Person?

I defined "Human" in my first post in this thread (post #9). No point repeating it.

Human means "of human species".

A human person is someone of human species who has a functioning brain
 

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I defined "Human" in my first post in this thread (post #9). No point repeating it.

Human means "of human species".

A human person is someone of human species who has a functioning brain

Someone in a coma and has no brain activity is not a person in your opinion?
 

fuddy

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Ok, so no brain, not a person..... yet. But if left to develop, it will soon become a person, at which point it WILL have human rights. And by messing around with it you're robbing it of its potential to become a person.
 
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Mercury

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Someone in a coma and has no brain activity is not a person in your opinion?

If there is no brain activity then the person can't be in a coma, they are in fact dead.
Also, for future clarification, I do not consider brain dead people being kept physically /artificially functionig with a life support machine to be actually alive. And in fact this is also a legal definition.

Here's the NHS statement on it:


"If someone is brain dead, the damage is irreversible and, according to UK law, the person has died.

It can be confusing to be told someone has brain death, because their life support machine will keep their heart beating and their chest will still rise and fall with every breath from the ventilator.

But they will not ever regain consciousness or start breathing on their own again. They have already died."



By comparison people in coma DO have brain function. Some times it is minimal function but it's still there and there's the potential for a future recovery. If you have brain function then you have a person. Such a person has human rights.

Hope that helps clarify
 

Mercury

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Ok, so no brain, not a person..... yet. But if left to develop, it will soon become a person, at which point it WILL have human rights. And by messing around with it you're robbing it of its potential to become a person.

Hi Fuddy

You've just cut/paste repeated there your post from earlier on (post #20)

I responded to it in my post #22 above
 

fuddy

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No. I exchanged the word 'human' for 'person' in the second iteration.
 

Mercury

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No. I exchanged the word 'human' for 'person' in the second iteration.

Apologies Fuddy I hadn't noticed that, very subtle :)

So my point still stands which is if you believe a human species life form that IS NOT YET A PERSON should have human rights then that must equally be applied to both human sperm and human eggs. Do you propose that humanity takes this approach? This would logically mean that wasting any sperm or eggs is murder. Masterbation would have to become a legal crime. Women smoking or drinking excessively or taking drugs or doing anything else that damages eggs would have to be a crime. How do you propose to police and enforce such crimes?
 

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Eggs alone are not gonna develop into anything. Same for the little wiggly guys. The person-creating process only begins when they're combined. 23 + 23= 46 and it's game on, we did our part (poke poke squirt squirt) and then God does all the rest. Yee haw
 
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Mercury

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Eggs alone are not gonna develop into anything. Same for the little wiggly guys. The person-creating process only begins when they're combined. 23 + 23= 46 and it's game on, we did our part (poke poke squirt squirt) and then God does all the rest. Yes haw

This is just a rather desperate appeal to emotion rather than a scientific position. It's like saying a house brick can't become a house because it hasn't been laid on the foundational concrete. It's like saying a seed doesn't have the potential to become a plant whilever it's sitting in a packet on the greenhouse shelf. It's a nonsense.

Sperm are living human entities/life forms. They are part of the development process of creating a human being.
But we very sensibly concede that sperm are not people. We don't concede that on the basis that they haven't joined with a female egg. We concede it because neither sperm nor egg nor the two put together have a brain and so neither the sperm nor the egg nor the two combined without a brain constitute a person.

The "person-creating process" needs to develop to a certian stage before there exists any semblance of a person. This is science.
Christianity of course wants to shun the science and introduce its made-up mumbo jumbo to replace the science. Christians are welcome to believe whatever they want even belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster if they wish. What they are not welcome to do is impose their misguided fantasies on the rest of humanity and try to impose those fantasies as law.

No brain, no person, no human rights.
 

fuddy

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And you honestly think Science isn't as guilty of an enormity of presumption in its assessments and theories?

Science, as a tool to explore and define reality and truth, is extremely limited. Ask any physicist. A good tool, but still limited.

We see as through a glass, darkly.
 

fuddy

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Of course, as many christians as scientists are guilty of presumption. It's a human condition, I guess.
 

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Here's something for you to ponder Fuddy.

If we are to be concerned about the potentiality of a future human person then isn't it wrong to NOT have sex and allow your sperm and some other woman's eggs to become fertilised? All your sperm are potential human persons. Not having sex denies those living human species lifeforms the chance of becoming a human person. How do you feel about that?
 

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Well, God DID say, "Go, and fill all the earth".

There are practical limits, however - He didn't say, " Go, and fill all the childbearing- aged women of the earth until you collapse and die from ejaculatory exhaustion."
 

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Sorry, couldn't resist.
 

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Funny :)

But sticking with the point. You have lots of potential human beings inside you at any time. If you don't utilise them then they persish quite naturally. So you're already allowing potential human persons to never reach that potential. It doesn't really matter whether that happens via your lack of sexual activity, or a woman's lack of sexual activity or whether a newly fertilised egg is terminated before it gets too far down the development process. None of those situations involve a human person. They only involve human species life forms that are not persons.
 

fuddy

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Don't you think the ultimate truth about this might, just might, be lost in semantics and limited human attempts at reasoning, despite however sincere those noble attempts may be?
I honestly think something 'happened' to me 30 yrs ago, when I, just to test what Jesus said ("you don't have, because you don't ask; ask, and you will receive), actually asked him to reveal to me the reality of himself and this gospel thing. I felt like an ass, driving down interstate 81 on my way from Canada to Florida, but I did it anyway. Gotta keep an open mind, right?

I gave God the benefit of my considerable doubt, so to speak.

After that, things began to change and, I'm telling you, I was not the impetus of those changes.

It's been a freakin mind blowing experience, and has shown me the absurdity of trying to figure life out with my own limited mind.

Seemingly pointless suffering of any kind, in a world created by a perfect God, makes no sense whatsoever... to the human mind at its current capacity.

What I am now convinced I HAVE received from God, is that He is infinitely benevolent towards us - that is His main motivational driver.

All the suffering in this world? I can't figure that one out either. Yet.
 
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