Free from the Law, oh blessed condition! I can sin as I please and still have remission.

[MoreCoffee]

Aside from Gordon Clarke's rhyme (and he meant it as a criticism of some Presbyterians who he said believed "nothing, just nothing at all") I have never heard a pastor in any church I have visited teach that we may sin as we please and still have remission.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

~

So what you're implying is that Jesus only forgave some sins on the cross?

Not all sins go on the books as offenses.

For example: Melchizedek was a high priest back in the days of Abraham, which
was something like +/- 400 years prior to the covenant that Moses' people agreed
upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. That covenant
penalizes offenders with a number of curses for non compliance: seen listed at Lev
26:14-39, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-68.

The thing is: Mel was immune to all those curses because the covenant isn't
retroactive. (Deut 5:2-4 & Gal 3:17) So then none of the covenant's curses for non
compliance applied to him. (Rom 4:15 & Rom 5:12-13) And seeing as how
Abraham was within Mel's sphere of spiritual authority (Gen 14:20 & Heb 7:4-10)
then Abraham was immune to the covenant's curses too.

For example: the covenant prohibits dishonesty (Lev 19:11) and it prohibits
sleeping with one's half-sister. (Lev 18:9) But God couldn't indict Abraham for
those behaviors because in his day, they were not yet codified; not even the Ten
Commandments. Mel and Abraham had quite an advantage.

BTW: Jesus' priesthood is patterned after Melchizedek's (Ps 110:4 & Heb 5:1-10)
which of course implies that those within Jesus' sphere of spiritual authority
have just as much immunity from the covenant's curses as Mel and Abraham, i.e.
basically a license to steal, so to speak.
_

 

[Lamb]

~


Not all sins go on the books as offenses.

For example: Melchizedek was a high priest back in the days of Abraham, which
was something like +/- 400 years prior to the covenant that Moses' people agreed
upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. That covenant
penalizes offenders with a number of curses for non compliance: seen listed at Lev
26:14-39, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-68.

The thing is: Mel was immune to all those curses because the covenant isn't
retroactive. (Deut 5:2-4 & Gal 3:17) So then none of the covenant's curses for non
compliance applied to him. (Rom 4:15 & Rom 5:12-13) And seeing as how
Abraham was within Mel's sphere of spiritual authority (Gen 14:20 & Heb 7:4-10)
then Abraham was immune to the covenant's curses too.

For example: the covenant prohibits dishonesty (Lev 19:11) and it prohibits
sleeping with one's half-sister. (Lev 18:9) But God couldn't indict Abraham for
those behaviors because in his day, they were not yet codified; not even the Ten
Commandments. Mel and Abraham had quite an advantage.

BTW: Jesus' priesthood is patterned after Melchizedek's (Ps 110:4 & Heb 5:1-10)
which of course implies that those within Jesus' sphere of spiritual authority
have just as much immunity from the covenant's curses as Mel and Abraham, i.e.
basically a license to steal, so to speak.
_

You're comparing covenant punishment and not really speaking against true sin's offense which goes against God Himself. All sin is against God.

 

[BruceLeiter]

The topic comes from a little rhyme that Gordon Clarke wrote in his book What Do Presbyterians Believe I think he thought that some Presbyterians believed nothing at the time he was writing in the 1960s.

So, are we, as Christians, free from the law and is that a blessed condition and does it mean that we can sin as we please and still have remission? Is this part of the LAW-GOSPEL divide that some say is so important?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

We are free from our divine Judge's verdict of guilty that Jesus took upon himself on the cross. when we become Christians, not from sins, and through his resurrection, God changes us to WANT to follow Jesus and do his will.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[BruceLeiter]

There is false teaching, that they turn God's grace into lewdness, but normally they don't preach that. In our church they always said: Stay in the middle of the road. Not legalistic and not lawless. Too much law and legalism is: do this do that or else God hates you and you go to hell, which at times can be good to say if someone really lives in sin, cheats with the neighbour or something, but I got that kind of preaching in the 2nd church I was in, which was cultish and I just left. I was just saved a few years, 18 years old. One time a Sunday to church was enough for me, but they had 2 services each Sunday. I rather went in the morning and then biked for fun instead of going again. That was not appreciated. Next Sunday, oh and he said he was God's personal mouth piece, he said that if we kept on sinning by not going to church there was no forgiveness possible anymore. That text from Paul pulled out of context to make you come twice a sunday. I played guitar there, so with me there (super tiny group) he prayed: Lord give us a faithful guitar player! (not like this lousy unfaithful one who only shows up once a sunday) So then I had enough and I really thought God said that through His mouth piece, so I quit going. My mom took me to her church and then all of a sudden God was full of love and so happy with you. In another church I got OSAS preaching, which was great cause I always felt condemned. But they can go too far with that and then you have lawlessness.
It's both dangerous. Either you let satan accuse you and try to work hard to be good enough to be loved by God or what I saw some say you get total false teaching, like refuse to forgive and you still go to heaven, also if you don't repent of that ever. A guy on another forum said that. And all those examples, even the sower and the unfruitful ones, no that was fine. They were saved. That is dangerous. It goes totally against what Jesus said and if someone is not bad it may not matter if they hear that, but what if someone really refuses to forgive and now thinks: oh no problem. The preacher said it was fine. Or lgtbq stuff. They preach that now in churches that it's fine.

My suggestions to you: 1) Keep looking for churches that call you to an ever-deeper relationship with Jesus instead of to regulations of God. 2) Find one with small, Bible-discussion, support groups, one of which you can join for real fellowship with real Christians who support one another through prayer around God's Word.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Good day,

I was once told to love God with all my heart and soul.... then sin when ever I wanted.

Talk about a contradiction.

In Him,

Bill

That advice was far-from-biblical. Dependence on the Holy Spirit, who gives you his gift of the new birth, through Jesus' victory gives us great incentive and power to WANT to conform our lives to God's will as it is revealed in the Bible instead of leading our own selfish lives.

 

[BruceLeiter]

I get so tired of the do this do that. I think I'm gonna block all those christian preachers on Facebook. You have to evangelize and save everyone. You have to do your calling. So annoying those people. Reminds me of a guy on a tv program called Man bites dog. They asked him if he wanted a wife and he said: no they sound like an ambulance: do this do that do this do that.

It makes a huge difference what they're trying to get you to do. If it's to improve your spiritual life according to the Bible's commands, of which there are many even in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit in us enables us to obey with joy. However, if it's not in relation to the Bible, it's not a command that we need to obey at all.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Good day,

I was once told to love God with all my heart and soul.... then sin when ever I wanted.

Talk about a contradiction.

In Him,

Bill

You were told wrong; that idea may value Jesus' death to forgive our sins but doesn't value Jesus' resurrection power that enables us to begin honoring God with our lives by following his will that is revealed in the Bible.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Yes, we as Christians are free from the law, which is a blessed condition. The reason we still have remission when we sin is not solely based on being free from the Law. That is based upon the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and God's work of 'imputation'. And that is unchangeable, securing the believer in his salvation.

The divide I see is usually Law/Grace. Does Grace, being free from the Law, mean I preach or teach that the Christian is free to sin all he wants? Of course not. But It means that when the Christian does sin, he is still secure in his salvation.

In the Church, I find that the tendency is to put more law on the Christian than Grace. It's just our human nature to want to earn or deserve something, and very hard to change.

I do like to remember this. Paul in (Rom. 3:5-8) said it was reported that he preached Grace and that he said 'Let us do evil, that good may come'. (3:8) Which he denied and said those that accuse him of that, their damnation is just. (3:8)

So Paul did not preach that, but the Grace he preached came across to many as though he did preach that. This causes me to think about the Grace we present to others. In other words, has anyone ever accused me as they accused Paul? It is my opinion that if I haven't been accused of that, then I have not really preached Grace.

When I listen to a preacher or Bible teacher, I listen to hear the Grace they preach. And try and see if I could accuse them of teaching Grace to the extent you can go out and sin all you want, as they accused Paul.

Lees

I agree with most of what you say. Here is another way to look at the question. God's grace that was won by Jesus' death for us ended his verdict of "guilty" for our many self-centered imperfections and also ended the external, national forms of the law in the Old Testament. However, his grace through Jesus' resurrection gives us the desire and power to follow the principles of God's Old and New Testament will as they are revealed in all his Word as commands that are given through Moses and the Apostles.

 

[BruceLeiter]

~


Christ's followers are exempt from Jewish dietary laws because their association
with God is by means of a different covenant than the covenant that Moses' people
entered into with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Noah was exempt too. He was given permission by Gen 9:3 to eat whatever; and
that's because the codified laws and rules of Moses' covenant aren't retroactive.
(Deut 5:2-3 & Gal 3:17)
_

If Noah was exempt, why weren't all believers in the Old Testament exempt from the dietary laws? I understand the difference in the old and new covenant differently. With Jesus' death, he took away the external form of the law (the "letter" of the law: 2 Corinthians 3:5-6) and replaced it with his resurrection for our new lives that must be led by all of the main ideas of the whole Bible. For example, the form of the dietary laws is done away, but our need to clean up the moral, emotional, and rational uncleanness in our lives is still necessary.

 

[BruceLeiter]

This thread has undergone a clean up. Flaming is not tolerated here on Christianity Haven.

What is "flaming," Lamb?

 

[Lamb]

What is "flaming," Lamb?

In the simplest of terms, it's name calling. Members are not allowed to address other members negatively, as in calling them stupid, saying they're ignorant, etc...

 

[BruceLeiter]

In the simplest of terms, it's name calling. Members are not allowed to address other members negatively, as in calling them stupid, saying they're ignorant, etc...

That's a very good rule, Lamb. We always need to respect and love each other. I've found that teaching somewhere in God's Word.

 

[BruceLeiter]

~


Not all sins go on the books as offenses.

For example: Melchizedek was a high priest back in the days of Abraham, which
was something like +/- 400 years prior to the covenant that Moses' people agreed
upon with God per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. That covenant
penalizes offenders with a number of curses for non compliance: seen listed at Lev
26:14-39, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-68.

The thing is: Mel was immune to all those curses because the covenant isn't
retroactive. (Deut 5:2-4 & Gal 3:17) So then none of the covenant's curses for non
compliance applied to him. (Rom 4:15 & Rom 5:12-13) And seeing as how
Abraham was within Mel's sphere of spiritual authority (Gen 14:20 & Heb 7:4-10)
then Abraham was immune to the covenant's curses too.

For example: the covenant prohibits dishonesty (Lev 19:11) and it prohibits
sleeping with one's half-sister. (Lev 18:9) But God couldn't indict Abraham for
those behaviors because in his day, they were not yet codified; not even the Ten
Commandments. Mel and Abraham had quite an advantage.

BTW: Jesus' priesthood is patterned after Melchizedek's (Ps 110:4 & Heb 5:1-10)
which of course implies that those within Jesus' sphere of spiritual authority
have just as much immunity from the covenant's curses as Mel and Abraham, i.e.
basically a license to steal, so to speak.
_

We are all accountable to God for our rebellion against him. All have witnessed his creative power in his creation around us, including Abraham. You are reading into Scripture, though, what isn't there. For example, you say, "God couldn't indict Abraham for his sins." Paul says in Romans 2 that God's law is written on people's hearts so that their consciences tell them right and wrong. They may ignore it or dull it, but all unbelieving people are accountable to God for their whole lives of rejecting him as the divine Creator and Rescuer.

The truth is stated in Genesis 15:6, "And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness." God had accepted him and made him right with him as his Judge and then cleaned up his act when he and Sarah decided to have a son through Hagar outside of God's will.

 

[BruceLeiter]

~
Jews are the the primary target audience of the epistle to Hebrews. (Heb 1:1-2)

So then, you Christians out there be careful with passages like this one:

● Heb 10:26 . . If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the
knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left.

That's a reiteration of Num 15:30-31.

It should go without saying that in a letter written intended for Jews, a "knowledge
of the truth" refers to the covenant that Moses' people agreed upon with God per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, a.k.a. Moses' Law.

It's very easy for poorly-catechized Gentiles to err by assuming Num 15:30-31
applies to everybody; even to Christ's followers. But his followers associate with
God via a different covenant, in point of fact, a much better covenant because it
protects habitual sinners whereas Moses' covenant doesn't.

"But the person, be he citizen or stranger, who acts defiantly reviles the Lord; that
person shall be cut off from among his people. Because he has spurned the word of
the Lord and violated His commandment, that person shall be cut off-- he bears his
guilt."

Also Deut 27:26, which says:

"Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them
out."

There are comprehensive lists of curses in Moses' law located at Lev 26:14-39,
Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-68. The good news is: Christ's followers are
immune to every one of them, whereas Jews are in grave danger of them all.

NOTE: Not all that long ago, the US President's son Hunter Biden requested a plea
bargain agreement that would protect him from crimes he might commit in the
future. Well; the judge wouldn't go for it. But God, via the cross, is prepared to
offer Hunter something very similar-- though for now he might have to serve some
time behind bars but at least he wouldn't end up facing justice at the great white
throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15 where the lost are on track to be punished
by a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.
_

The main audience of the Book of Hebrews is Jewish Christians, not unbelieving Jews.