Examining Christian Claims.

[Stravinsk]

Claim 1: Jesus instructs the Disciples to do miraculous things: Matthew 10: 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Outside the Bible, has there been a case of Christians raising the dead, or cleansing those who have leprosy *in the manner Jesus is supposed to have done these things* (prayer, word of faith)? Please cite the historical claims. This should only include the context of Christ's method or protocol. No modern technology. No special doctors or protocols. Jesus is supposed to have done these things purely on faith.

Related claim 2: John 14 - 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

In 2000 or so years, *outside the Bible*, how many documented and attested to proofs are there for these sort of miracles happening through the faith of Christians?

Can you also turn water into wine without yeast and a ferment-able substance?
How many Christians walk on water?
How many cure the blind with merely a prayer?
How many heal Cancer or other diseases with no method or protocol other than faith?

Your Christ directs his disciples to do these things. He also claims greater things than he has done will be done by those who believe.

This should be very evident in history. But it isn't. If it were, there would be no need for the many people who work in these areas to help others, with whatever non-biblical protocol or method they use. Christianity claims the miraculous, but history has shown it has utterly failed to deliver, outside of Biblical stories. Modern Pastors say Jesus now works through "doctors hands" and so forth to cling to their faith.

 

[Maranatha]

Sravinsk,
I'm glad that you are still here, and good questions.

It is important that we don't just pick a single verse out of context and try to make a doctrine out of it.
Example Matthew 10:8
We need to go back to at least v5:
"These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them..."
Jesus gave specific instruction specifically to "these twelve"
Those instructions don't necessarily apply to anyone else. Even Paul had to leave Trophimus behind because he was sick (2 Timothy 4:20)

"Can you also turn water into wine without yeast and a ferment-able substance? "
Jesus never suggested that we are all able to do that.

"How many Christians walk on water?"
Jesus specifically said to Peter "come"
The Bible doesn't say that anyone else can do it .

I might try and answer the other questions later on.

In the meantime keep seeking

 

[Frankj]

Sravinsk,
I'm glad that you are still here, and good questions.

It is important that we don't just pick a single verse out of context and try to make a doctrine out of it.
Example Matthew 10:8
We need to go back to at least v5:
"These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them..."
Jesus gave specific instruction specifically to "these twelve"
Those instructions don't necessarily apply to anyone else. Even Paul had to leave Trophimus behind because he was sick (2 Timothy 4:20)

"Can you also turn water into wine without yeast and a ferment-able substance? "
Jesus never suggested that we are all able to do that.

"How many Christians walk on water?"
Jesus specifically said to Peter "come"
The Bible doesn't say that anyone else can do it .

I might try and answer the other questions later on.

In the meantime keep seeking

Are you suggesting that Jesus meant what he said only for those he was speaking to?

Or is it a pick and choose thing where he meant t hem for others only when it supports your particular view.

This is not a minor thing, it is the difference between practicing the religion Jesus taught vs practicing a religion about Jesus.

 

[Frankj]

Claim 1: Jesus instructs the Disciples to do miraculous things: Matthew 10: 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Outside the Bible, has there been a case of Christians raising the dead, or cleansing those who have leprosy *in the manner Jesus is supposed to have done these things* (prayer, word of faith)? Please cite the historical claims. This should only include the context of Christ's method or protocol. No modern technology. No special doctors or protocols. Jesus is supposed to have done these things purely on faith.

Related claim 2: John 14 - 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

In 2000 or so years, *outside the Bible*, how many documented and attested to proofs are there for these sort of miracles happening through the faith of Christians?

Can you also turn water into wine without yeast and a ferment-able substance?
How many Christians walk on water?
How many cure the blind with merely a prayer?
How many heal Cancer or other diseases with no method or protocol other than faith?

Your Christ directs his disciples to do these things. He also claims greater things than he has done will be done by those who believe.

This should be very evident in history. But it isn't. If it were, there would be no need for the many people who work in these areas to help others, with whatever non-biblical protocol or method they use. Christianity claims the miraculous, but history has shown it has utterly failed to deliver, outside of Biblical stories. Modern Pastors say Jesus now works through "doctors hands" and so forth to cling to their faith.

Those who do such things generally remain anonymous and out of sight so that the glory is God's and not their own. Demanding 'proof' of such things is demanding the glory go to a man (or woman) and not to God because it denies his works and credits them to men.

You must overcome yourself before being able to do what Jesus told us we could do.

 

[tango]

Strav, these are all good questions but part of the problem with verifying them is that in many cases it's impossible to verify them outside of the context where they happened.

If you take the example of the man healed in Acts 3, the people in the area knew him. They knew he was lame, and after the recorded healing they could see him jumping and leaping. They could see something very unusual had happened. I wasn't there, so my decision is whether I believe the account in the book of Acts.

I have a friend who uses a wheelchair because of an injury she suffered many years ago. I know she's paraplegic, she knows she's paraplegic, other people who know her know she's paraplegic. I've seen her moving around without her wheelchair, she can transfer herself from her wheelchair to a regular chair although it takes a lot of effort for her. If the next time I see her she's walking around normally I'll know something very unusual has happened. But living on the other side of the world you probably don't know her, so anything I presented to you could be dismissed as being faked - you've only got my word that this person even exists.

I often think of these things as being like a stone dropped into a still pond. Where the stone lands you get a splash and then the further away you get the ripples become progressively smaller. So in the example of my paraplegic friend, if she were healed the biggest impact would be on her. The people immediately around her would see the difference right away - these are the people who know her personally and know she's been in her wheelchair for years. Then there are the "people who know people" - people who know me personally would hopefully know I'm truthful and trust my account of seeing the lame walk even if they hadn't seen it for themselves.

As we get further away so the account loses impact. To you, I'm a guy on the internet and you've only got my word that I'm a guy - my profile says I'm male but you've only got my word for that. You might have read my posts and concluded I'm broadly credible but whether you'd take my word for something miraculous is up to you, and in all honesty I wouldn't blame you in the slightest if you rejected my testimony of a miracle because it would be no more than "some guy on the internet made a really far-fetched claim without offering any evidence". But at the same time I'd know without any doubt that something very unusual had happened because I'd have seen it with my own eyes.

These days we want to see all sorts of verification of things that maybe weren't even intended for us. We have a tendency to put claims into "I believe this is true" or "I believe this is false" with little thought given to the third option, where many things can reasonably be filed, which is "I don't know". And in the meantime if the person at the center of it all was healed they probably don't care if someone half way around the world doesn't believe their account is true, and if the person wasn't healed they probably don't care if someone half way around the world believes they were.

 

[Stravinsk]

I'm going to summarize the responses as I understand them

1) Directions to raise the dead, heal leprosy were only to "the Twelve"
2) People who actually do these things "remain anonymous", so as not to get glory for themselves.
3) Hard to verify because we didn't both witness something, we are far away from each other, it's only word of mouth and trust.

1) I must reject this answer. This is the reason I brought up John 14:12. According to this verse, Christians will replicate Christ's actions, and even do greater things They don't. With regards to miracles on the scale Jesus is supposed to have accomplished, they never have.

2) This is a strange answer, considering that plenty of public "slain in the spirit", "talking in tongues" and even exorcisms are filmed/recorded/witnessed in person by many. In contrast, not one Christian has dramatically demonstrated faith by raising the dead only through faith/prayer, gave sight to the blind, walked on water, etc.

3) We have lived in the internet age for some time now. And while there is and always has been trickery to fool individuals, it is a little trickier to do the kinds of things Jesus is supposed to have done when it is witnessed by many. Any individual who could replicate, in person, with lots of witnesses, the kind of miracles we see in the bible would neither stay anonymous nor would distance, mere word of mouth or trust in testimony suffice. Word of a true miracle worker would spread quickly, along with petitions to raise dead loved ones, miraculously heal the sick, demonstrate miracle powers by walking on water, turning water to wine in a flash, etc.

....And this doesn't happen. Has never happened. History would have recorded it. Instead, what's recorded are numerous fraudulent individuals who use various tricks, particularly mind tricks to fleece the faithful and hopeful. Instead of being a glorious 2000 year History of Christ-Like people using their faith not only in day to day acts of kindness and service, we would also see, according to the verses I have quoted, acts that defy known reality, as Jesus is not only supposed to have done, but clearly teaches that his followers would do the same, and greater.

 

[Frankj]

I'm going to summarize the responses as I understand them

1) Directions to raise the dead, heal leprosy were only to "the Twelve"
2) People who actually do these things "remain anonymous", so as not to get glory for themselves.
3) Hard to verify because we didn't both witness something, we are far away from each other, it's only word of mouth and trust.

1) I must reject this answer. This is the reason I brought up John 14:12. According to this verse, Christians will replicate Christ's actions, and even do greater things They don't. With regards to miracles on the scale Jesus is supposed to have accomplished, they never have.

2) This is a strange answer, considering that plenty of public "slain in the spirit", "talking in tongues" and even exorcisms are filmed/recorded/witnessed in person by many. In contrast, not one Christian has dramatically demonstrated faith by raising the dead only through faith/prayer, gave sight to the blind, walked on water, etc.

3) We have lived in the internet age for some time now. And while there is and always has been trickery to fool individuals, it is a little trickier to do the kinds of things Jesus is supposed to have done when it is witnessed by many. Any individual who could replicate, in person, with lots of witnesses, the kind of miracles we see in the bible would neither stay anonymous nor would distance, mere word of mouth or trust in testimony suffice. Word of a true miracle worker would spread quickly, along with petitions to raise dead loved ones, miraculously heal the sick, demonstrate miracle powers by walking on water, turning water to wine in a flash, etc.

....And this doesn't happen. Has never happened. History would have recorded it. Instead, what's recorded are numerous fraudulent individuals who use various tricks, particularly mind tricks to fleece the faithful and hopeful. Instead of being a glorious 2000 year History of Christ-Like people using their faith not only in day to day acts of kindness and service, we would also see, according to the verses I have quoted, acts that defy known reality, as Jesus is not only supposed to have done, but clearly teaches that his followers would do the same, and greater.

Just curious, but what do you expect to find in Asatru and are you applying the same standards of judgment/proof to it as to Christianity?

To be honest, and not meaning to offend, that's one road I never walked down since it always struck me as LARPing rather than genuinely practicing a religion.

 

[Stravinsk]

Just curious, but what do you expect to find in Asatru and are you applying the same standards of judgment/proof to it as to Christianity?

Reunion. Not with a Jewish 'god', but with my people, and our ancient ways. Ways that served us long before Christianity, for thousands of years. . Power, not over others, but with truth. Standards, yes, I apply the same. Stories of origins deserve scrutiny, whatever their claims. There is no punishment for doubt in Asatru. One can doubt the gods very existence, if one is so inclined. The gods of Asatru care but make no demands of faith. One either aligns themself with reality or suffers the consequences of actions based in fantasy. Asatru aligns itself with what is - not what is hoped to be. The idea that the lion will lay down with the lamb and a child will lead them (Isaiah 11:6) is treated for what it is, based on clear observation - a fantasy. In this case, a Jewish fantasy. There is order and hierarchy in the universe, an opposition to the idea of universal egalitarianism - or "equalness" of all beings.

To be honest, and not meaning to offend, that's one road I never walked down since it always struck me as LARPing rather than genuinely practicing a religion.

If what you mean by "larping" is simply "role playing", then all religion is "larping". You bend the knee and wish for "thy will be done, thy Kingdom come" - is a roleplay with a Jewish/Christian mindset and worldview.

 

[Frankj]

If what you mean by "larping" is simply "role playing", then all religion is "larping". You bend the knee and wish for "thy will be done, thy Kingdom come" - is a roleplay with a Jewish/Christian mindset and worldview.

Actually that's a very valid criticism of a very large and growing part of what is called Christianity, a point I often make even though it doesn't make me very popular.

There are two kinds of Christians, those who practice a religion about Jesus and those who practice the religion of Jesus.

The former far outnumber the latter.

May your day be blessed, may the Lord guide and protect you in all you do.

 

[Can't think of a name]

I no longer give any credence to anti-Christian sentiments. I would bother to respond to your post if I thought it would make any difference whatsoever but it never does so I won't bother. Enjoy bashing Christians if you really feel like you want to spend your time doing that instead of more productive things.

 

[Maranatha]

I no longer give any credence to anti-Christian sentiments

Then just don't comment
Your post was inappropriate and unnecessary.

 

[Maranatha]

@Stravinsk

Try and see the bigger picture
Being a Christian is not about who can do bigger and better miracles.
It is about the Gospel

Just some thoughts to consider:
Mark wrote
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)

Paul wrote:
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance,
that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.(1 Tim.1:15)

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die
but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.(Romans 5v6-8)

 

[Can't think of a name]

Then just don't comment
Your post was inappropriate and unnecessary.

Am I not allowed to comment on here? What are forums for if nobody is allowed to say anything?

My post was my opinion. It was neither inappropriate or unnecessary. I'm entirely not sure where you are getting these sentiments from. It's possible something is wrong with you maybe?

 

[Can't think of a name]

Then just don't comment
Your post was inappropriate and unnecessary.

I think I understand now why you said this. It's because you believe that it is your job to convert people with or without God being involved in the process.

 

[Lamb]

Reunion. Not with a Jewish 'god', but with my people, and our ancient ways.

What do you mean by "but with my people"? Who are your people?

 

[torial]

Interesting discussion. First, John 14:12 supports the OP contention John 14:12 - The Way, the Truth, and the Life

Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father. (NASB)

I would suggest that many *western* Christians have put God in a box and really practicing scientific materialists with occasional miracles allowed.

Craig Keener has a 2 volume set where he went through and documents miracles. Some of the miracles have better evidence than others (like xrays before and after a healing [not medical intervention]). That is the closest I think you'll get to having documented evidence that is reported anywhere. Craig Keener is a Wesleyan theologian who does a lot of scholarly work.

 

[Stravinsk]

What do you mean by "but with my people"? Who are your people?

I actually wrote out a response to this, but that would sort of take this thread way off topic. To be honest, I am not even sure I can express the views on this board, lest it break some rule. Let me then, for now, summarize with what "my people" is NOT. It is not defined by belief, or belief only. I know, for example, a man in my real life who is a Christian and church goer. By faith, he is not one of us. By genetics, he most definitely is.

 

[tango]

I'm going to summarize the responses as I understand them

1) Directions to raise the dead, heal leprosy were only to "the Twelve"
2) People who actually do these things "remain anonymous", so as not to get glory for themselves.
3) Hard to verify because we didn't both witness something, we are far away from each other, it's only word of mouth and trust.

1) I must reject this answer. This is the reason I brought up John 14:12. According to this verse, Christians will replicate Christ's actions, and even do greater things They don't. With regards to miracles on the scale Jesus is supposed to have accomplished, they never have.

2) This is a strange answer, considering that plenty of public "slain in the spirit", "talking in tongues" and even exorcisms are filmed/recorded/witnessed in person by many. In contrast, not one Christian has dramatically demonstrated faith by raising the dead only through faith/prayer, gave sight to the blind, walked on water, etc.

3) We have lived in the internet age for some time now. And while there is and always has been trickery to fool individuals, it is a little trickier to do the kinds of things Jesus is supposed to have done when it is witnessed by many. Any individual who could replicate, in person, with lots of witnesses, the kind of miracles we see in the bible would neither stay anonymous nor would distance, mere word of mouth or trust in testimony suffice. Word of a true miracle worker would spread quickly, along with petitions to raise dead loved ones, miraculously heal the sick, demonstrate miracle powers by walking on water, turning water to wine in a flash, etc.

....And this doesn't happen. Has never happened. History would have recorded it. Instead, what's recorded are numerous fraudulent individuals who use various tricks, particularly mind tricks to fleece the faithful and hopeful. Instead of being a glorious 2000 year History of Christ-Like people using their faith not only in day to day acts of kindness and service, we would also see, according to the verses I have quoted, acts that defy known reality, as Jesus is not only supposed to have done, but clearly teaches that his followers would do the same, and greater.

Like you, I reject position (1) so I won't explore that any further.

You quite rightly note that many of the things that are very public are dramatic. Frankly I think much of it is worthless. People can fake things, even when a film crew is present. The lame can get out of their wheelchairs and dance, if they were placed stooges who never needed the wheelchair in the first place. And the gathered masses would have no way of knowing whether they had seen a genuine miracle or a fine piece of acting.

As far as (3) is concerned, and blurring maybe a little with (1), you are right that we live in the internet age and have for some time. But what value is the internet when claims are unproven? I personally knew someone who was in hospital, in the ICU after major surgery, and not expected to live (and by that I mean their family was summoned for the last chance to see them alive). Many people prayed for this person, and two days later they left the ICU. Not on their way to the morgue as expected, but on their way home. Quite what happened remains unclear, suffice to say the doctors treating them were confounded as to just how they went from death's door to home. But here's the question, what proof would you expect to see to validate this testimony? Most people wouldn't want their medical notes posted online, so the internet age offers no benefit. Even if notes were posted, how many would accept them and how many would insist on ever-more details? The people who want to believe would believe, and the people who didn't want to believe wouldn't believe. So we'd still be no further forward despite the internet age.

In the last couple of weeks I've personally seen a sitution that appeared impossible resolve itself in ways I never expected, even when praying for the exact outcome that happened. I'm being deliberately vague there because I don't have permission to post details. But since, as I said before, I'm "some guy on the internet" you can decide for yourself whether you want to believe my account of what happened, even when it's as light on details as this. Jesus talked of what could happen if we had faith the size of a mustard seed. When I was praying I asked for this very specific outcome fully expecting that it wouldn't happen, but asking anyway. So anyone is welcome to note that I prayed with no faith that the prayer would be granted whatsoever, and yet it happened exactly as I prayed it would. A few people who know me know how things played out, a few people who know the situation can see how things played out and the ones who don't believe in prayer can't figure out how it happened.

It's also worth remembering that it's not us that has the power to do these things, and the God who sent his servants to the remote wilderness (e.g. John the Baptist, and Jesus born in a manger in a small town) isn't necessarily going to perform like a circus animal because someone wants a video of the dead rising.

To address your specific observation in (3), a person who truly wants the glory for a miracle to go to God (and anyone working miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit would want exactly that) wouldn't seek publicity for themselves. They wouldn't wait for the film crew to heal the sick, they would want to stay in the shadows rather than being exalted as if they were the power behind it. As a wise man once said, "he must increase and I must decrease".

 

[Stravinsk]

@Stravinsk

Try and see the bigger picture
Being a Christian is not about who can do bigger and better miracles.
It is about the Gospel

Just some thoughts to consider:
Mark wrote
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15)

Paul wrote:
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance,
that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.(1 Tim.1:15)

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die
but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.(Romans 5v6-8)

This is all off topic. I think you are making assumptions about me and projecting them onto me. I am not a Christian. Neither is this really about my faith or lack of it. It is more concerned with the claim of the religion (a specific claim in Christianity, in this instance) against what we observe in actual life.

Christianity (and by extension, Judaism, on which Christianity is partially based) make claims of supernatural happenings. This is not uncommon in many religions. However, one difference in Christianity is that the leader/founder in that religion (Christ) ties belief in Him to similar (and even greater) acts than he is supposed to have done. This is something that can be examined. Do Christians do the same miraculous things Christ did? Do they raise the dead, heal leprosy, walk on water, etc? No. The excuses I'm getting in this thread do not hold up, imo. We have roughly 2000 years of Christianity, and outside of the bible, all the "miracle workers" that were to supposed to have been produced by faith/devotion are absent.

If one man/god can inspire the faith of billions, on acts recorded 2000 years ago, you cannot convince me that persons who are said to have believed in him/followed him would not get at least equal attention and places in history if they performed similar (and greater) miracles than he did. They WOULD be noticed. But they do not exist, at least, not as miracle workers. I'm not talking about people being sick and then getting well, in general.

Raise the dead. Heal the blind. Walk on water. Move mountains. Calm storms. All as an immediate and direct result of faith/prayer.

 

[Lamb]

This is all off topic. I think you are making assumptions about me and projecting them onto me. I am not a Christian. Neither is this really about my faith or lack of it. It is more concerned with the claim of the religion (a specific claim in Christianity, in this instance) against what we observe in actual life.

Christianity (and by extension, Judaism, on which Christianity is partially based) make claims of supernatural happenings. This is not uncommon in many religions. However, one difference in Christianity is that the leader/founder in that religion (Christ) ties belief in Him to similar (and even greater) acts than he is supposed to have done. This is something that can be examined. Do Christians do the same miraculous things Christ did? Do they raise the dead, heal leprosy, walk on water, etc? No. The excuses I'm getting in this thread do not hold up, imo. We have roughly 2000 years of Christianity, and outside of the bible, all the "miracle workers" that were to supposed to have been produced by faith/devotion are absent.

If one man/god can inspire the faith of billions, on acts recorded 2000 years ago, you cannot convince me that persons who are said to have believed in him/followed him would not get at least equal attention and places in history if they performed similar (and greater) miracles than he did. They WOULD be noticed. But they do not exist, at least, not as miracle workers. I'm not talking about people being sick and then getting well, in general.

Raise the dead. Heal the blind. Walk on water. Move mountains. Calm storms. All as an immediate and direct result of faith/prayer.

I'm a Lutheran and that means that we believe in the cessation of the gifts that you've been saying Christians need to do. They were only intended for a specific period of time. Now that doesn't mean that God can't work through people to do any of those things.

Don't lump all Christians into the same category. There are some who believe as you say, but not everyone does.