Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!

[Amos Ministries]

Right. Not, "it's the first step you take toward saving yourself."


Also note Ephesians 4:5. There are NOT two Baptisms (one water, another of the Holy Spirit), the view that there are TWO Baptisms flat out contradicts clear Scripture. John the Baptist (a JEWISH prophet) notes Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism but he does not say "Thus there will be TWO different Baptisms" (which would make him or Ephesians 4:5 lying). It seems to me, the obvious reading is that in the NEW Covenant, Baptism will be water AND spirit.




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It also states one God yet we believe there is the trinity.ephesians 4:5 he speaks of one spirit meaning the Holy Spirit this is how he is separating it from the water baptism, one baptism. Also even though you have the Holy Spirit you will always also have your own spirit as the scripture states the spirit itself testifies with our spirit romans 8:16 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit(A)that we are God’s children.

So there is much to be debated regarding how Paul worded this scripture.

 

[Amos Ministries]

Right. Not, "it's the first step you take toward saving yourself."


Also note Ephesians 4:5. There are NOT two Baptisms (one water, another of the Holy Spirit), the view that there are TWO Baptisms flat out contradicts clear Scripture. John the Baptist (a JEWISH prophet) notes Water Baptism and Holy Spirit Baptism but he does not say "Thus there will be TWO different Baptisms" (which would make him or Ephesians 4:5 lying). It seems to me, the obvious reading is that in the NEW Covenant, Baptism will be water AND spirit.








It says "US." It does not say "ME." US - it's plural, it's corporate, it's communal, it refers to the ENTIRE church catholic - to ALL Christians (past, present and future) TOGETHER. It does not say, "And the Holy Spirit will reveal just bunches of new and weird things to ONE person such as Arius or maybe it's Joseph Smith or maybe it's Mary Baker Eddy or maybe it's Jim Jones, you won't be told which one is being lead." Christianity has agreed with this verse, the Holy Spirit teaches and guides US - every Christian TOGETHER, "us" in the plural.... it has rejected that the Holy Spirit teaches and guides any individual egotistical bozo who feels the extreme need to be regarded as unaccountable. This HISTORIC and ECUMENICAL guidance is what Christianity calls Tradition. Self declaring self THE Guided One is what Scripture calls disunity and the subject of what Scripture so often warns as false prophets.


A blessed Christmas Season to you and yours...



Josiah


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John the Baptist said you should be baptizing me meaning with the Holy Spirit. It was John the Baptist who said I Baptiste with water but he who is coming will baptise with fire and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Josiah]

It also states one God yet we believe there is the trinity.

1. Do you accept the Tradition of the Trinity? Your profile says you reject the Trinity and Nicene Creed....


2. Romans 8:16 does NOT say there are TWO different Christian Baptisms..... one involving water and a different, separate one involving the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:5 says there is ONE baptism.


3. Romans 8:16 does NOT say that Baptism is the START of anything, the BEGINNING of anything... nothing about how we need to then do a whole bunch of other stuff in order to save ourselves.

John the Baptist said you should be baptizing me meaning with the Holy Spirit. It was John the Baptist who said I Baptiste with water but he who is coming will baptise with fire and the Holy Spirit.

1. John the Baptist.... a JEWISH prophet.... any Christian is greater than he.... never said "Thus there will be TWO different Christian baptisms - one involving water and an entirely, wholly different one involving the Holy Spirit." If he said there would someday be TWO baptisms, he could contradict Ephesians 4:5. A much clearer and more obvious (and pretty much universal) "read" is that Jesus' Baptism (the CHRISTIAN one) would involve both.... the Jew does NOT say, "Thus, water baptism will disappear and will be REPLACED by a completely different one what does not involve water." Nor does the Jewish prophet say, "We have a baptism and Christianity will add a second, different one so that there will be two different baptisms."




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[Amos Ministries]

1. Do you accept the Tradition of the Trinity? Your profile says you reject the Trinity and Nicene Creed....


2. Romans 8:16 does NOT say there are TWO different Christian Baptisms..... one involving water and a different, separate one involving the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:5 says there is ONE baptism.


3. Romans 8:16 does NOT say that Baptism is the START of anything, the BEGINNING of anything... nothing about how we need to then do a whole bunch of other stuff in order to save ourselves.







1. John the Baptist.... a JEWISH prophet.... any Christian is greater than he.... never said "Thus there will be TWO different Christian baptisms - one involving water and an entirely, wholly different one involving the Holy Spirit." If he said there would someday be TWO baptisms, he could contradict Ephesians 4:5 much clearer and more obvious (and pretty much universal) "read" is that Jesus' Baptism (the CHRISTIAN one) would involve both.... the Jew does NOT say, "Thus, water baptism will disappear (even though the word MEANS to wash) and will be REPLACED by one what does not involve water." Nor does the Jewish prophet say, "We have a baptism and Christianity will add a second, different one so that there will be two different baptisms."




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Paul himself explains in the examples I have already given in the beginning that there are two baptisms you are omitting scripture in your outlook of this subject there is no point debating this if your going to do that.

Although I believe in the trinity I do not understand it and no one I have ever talked to does fully understand it and believe me I talk to a lot of people.

 

[Josiah]

Paul himself explains in the examples I have already given in the beginning that there are two baptisms you are omitting scripture in your outlook of this subject there is no point debating this if your going to do that.

Ephesians 4:5 specifically states there is ONE baptism. Please share the verse that says there are TWO different, separate ones.

The Jewish prophet John the Baptist does NOT remotely state, "We have a water baptism but Christians will ADD a second, different one that involves the Holy Spirit." I guess you can ADD that idea to Scripture (you can ADD anything to Scripture) but that's you ADDING that. There's nothing the Jewish prophet says that contradicts or modifies Ephesians 4:5.

And there's nothing in Scripture that says water Baptism is a start of self saving self. There is a verse that says "Baptism now saves you" but none that says, "Baptism does nothing" or "Baptism is a hoop you gotta do in order to save yourself."

Although I believe in the trinity I do not understand it.

Hum.... okay....


But the site here asked you if you ACCEPT the Trinity - and you said "no." Nowhere does this site ask anyone to "UNDERSTAND" any tradition or teaching.




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[Andrew]

Paul himself explains in the examples I have already given in the beginning that there are two baptisms you are omitting scripture in your outlook of this subject there is no point debating this if your going to do that.

Although I believe in the trinity I do not understand it and no one I have ever talked to does fully understand it and believe me I talk to a lot of people.

No one claims to totally understand the mystery of the Godhead yet we believe and accept it

As to the topic of this thread, we aren't baptised into Johns baptism, just one baptism of Christ in which we are buried in and raised to life

 

[Amos Ministries]

Ephesians 4:5 specifically states there is ONE baptism. Please share the verse that says there are TWO different, separate ones.

The Jewish prophet John the Baptist does NOT remotely state, "We have a water baptism but Christians will ADD a second, different one that involves the Holy Spirit." I guess you can ADD that idea to Scripture (you can ADD anything to Scripture) but that's you ADDING that. There's nothing the Jewish prophet says that contradicts or modifies Ephesians 4:5.

And there's nothing in Scripture that says water Baptism is a start of self saving self. There is a verse that says "Baptism now saves you" but none that says, "Baptism does nothing" or "Baptism is a hoop you gotta do in order to save yourself."






Hum.... okay....


But the site here asked you if you ACCEPT the Trinity - and you said "no." Nowhere does this site ask anyone to "UNDERSTAND" any tradition or teaching.




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So you don’t care what people understand lol just what they accept?

 

[Amos Ministries]

No one claims to totally understand the mystery of the Godhead yet we believe and accept it

As to the topic of this thread, we aren't baptised into Johns baptism, just one baptism of Christ in which we are buried in and raised to life

Acts 19:3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.

Jesus said we were meant to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Andrew]

Acts 19:3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.

Jesus said we were meant to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

So there is no mystery left, you know all there is to possibly know about God and Heaven? The creed was to end the fantastic theories of explaining the Godhead by acknowledging that's it's difficult to perceive or explain away so here is the closest we as mere man can get to understanding it..

Paul was talking to Christians who were baptised by John no? Was John's repentance baptism sufficient enough? One baptism, not John's, not Paul's, but Christ's baptism

 

[Amos Ministries]

So there is no mystery left, you know all there is to possibly know about God and Heaven? The creed was to end the fantastic theories of explaining the Godhead by acknowledging that's it's difficult to perceive or explain away so here is the closest we as mere man can get to understanding it..

Paul was talking to Christians who were baptised by John no? Was John's repentance baptism sufficient enough? One baptism, not John's, not Paul's, but Christ's baptism

No it does not say they were baptized by John but rather into the baptism of John

Acts 19:1
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples

These disciples were Greek.

 

[Josiah]

So there is no mystery left, you know all there is to possibly know about God and Heaven? The creed was to end the fantastic theories of explaining the Godhead by acknowledging that's it's difficult to perceive or explain away so here is the closest we as mere man can get to understanding it..

Paul was talking to Christians who were baptised by John no? Was John's repentance baptism sufficient enough? One baptism, not John's, not Paul's, but Christ's baptism

Good response.

"JOHN'S BAPTISM" is that of John.... a JEWISH prophet.... symbolic of repentance and forgiveness but void of the Holy Spirit.

The Baptism of which Paul writes in Ephesians 4:5 was not any of the JEWISH symbolic rites (all called "baptism" of one sort or another). Indeed, John the Baptism notes that Jesus' Baptism (the CHRISTIAN Baptism) will be DIFFERENT from his, but John does NOT say the Christian one will be a SECOND, additional Baptism so that there will be TWO separate, different baptisms - his will continue (involving water) but Jesus will ADD a second, additional one. It has been understood that John's JEWISH baptism included water did not include the Holy Spirit, and that JESUS' (Christian) Baptism involves both, ONE Baptism (Ephesians 4:5, etc.) involving both water and the Holy Spirit.


A blessed Christmas Season to all...


Josiah




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[Andrew]

No it does not say they were baptized by John but rather into the baptism of John

Acts 19:1
While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples

These disciples were Greek.

You are correct, into John's baptism

 

[Amos Ministries]

Good response.

"JOHN'S BAPTISM" is that of John.... a JEWISH prophet.... symbolic of repentance and forgiveness but void of the Holy Spirit.

The Baptism of which Paul writes in Ephesians 4:5 was not any of the JEWISH symbolic rites (all called "baptism" of one sort or another). Indeed, John the Baptism notes that Jesus' Baptism (the CHRISTIAN Baptism) will be DIFFERENT from his, but John does NOT say the Christian one will be a SECOND, additional Baptism so that there will be TWO separate, different baptisms - his will continue (involving water) but Jesus will ADD a second, additional one. It has been understood that John's JEWISH baptism included water did not include the Holy Spirit, and that JESUS' (Christian) Baptism involves both, ONE Baptism (Ephesians 4:5, etc.) involving both water and the Holy Spirit.


A blessed Christmas Season to all...


Josiah




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So why did Paul say acts 19:3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.

Which was said after Jesus coming resurrection and ascension to heaven.

 

[Josiah]

So why did Paul say acts 19:3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.

Probably John's baptism.... the JEWISH "Baptism of Repentance." And not Jesus's

Which was said after Jesus resurrection

The Jewish faith and all things Jewish (including its rites and customs) continued after Easter. They did not all disappear on that Sunday. It seems very credible to me that THOUSANDS of people had received the Jewish baptism (what John was doing - water only) but not the Christian one (which as even John noted is different).


Nowhere does any verse contradict Ephesians 4:9 and insist that Christians have TWO separate, different Baptism - that of John (water only) and that of Jesus (Holy Spirit only), TWO Baptisms. Um, it flat out says Christians have ONE baptism. It involves water and it involves the Holy Spirit - it is DIFFERENT than John's JEWISH baptism but it is not ADDITIONAL to it. A new aspect has been added - the Holy Spirit.


Nowhere does any verse state that Baptism "starts" anything or that it is one of a long chain of hoops one must choose to jump through in order to save themselves.

Lutheran Perspective on Baptism

There are several points, they are to be taken TOGETHER, they will mean several posts (since post length here is restricted). I share NOT with the goal of changing anyone's mind on this but to share the perspective of Lutherans on this. Let me make clear too that there are several issues here...

christianityhaven.com

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[Amos Ministries]

Probably John's baptism.... the JEWISH "Baptism of Repentance." And not Jesus's




The Jewish faith and all things Jewish (including its rites and customs) continued after Easter. They did not all disappear on that Sunday. It seems very credible to me that THOUSANDS of people had received the Jewish baptism (what John was doing - water only) but not the Christian one (which as even John noted is different).


Nowhere does any verse contradict Ephesians 4:9 and insist that Christians have TWO separate, different Baptism - that of John (water only) and that of Jesus (Holy Spirit only), TWO Baptisms. Um, it flat out says Christians have ONE baptism. It involves water and it involves the Holy Spirit - it is DIFFERENT than John's JEWISH baptism but it is not ADDITIONAL to it. A new aspect has been added - the Holy Spirit.


Nowhere does any verse state that Baptism "starts" anything or that it is one of a long chain of hoops one must choose to jump through in order to save themselves.

Lutheran Perspective on Baptism

There are several points, they are to be taken TOGETHER, they will mean several posts (since post length here is restricted). I share NOT with the goal of changing anyone's mind on this but to share the perspective of Lutherans on this. Let me make clear too that there are several issues here...

christianityhaven.com

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You keep stating Jewish baptism but the Jewish people did not baptise themselves before John the Baptist came to prepare the people for the lord. Water baptism does just that prepares people for the Holy Spirit. 2 baptisms.

Acts 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, as He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

 

[Lamb]

You keep stating Jewish baptism but the Jewish people did not baptise themselves before John the Baptist came to prepare the people for the lord. Water baptism does just that prepares people for the Holy Spirit. 2 baptisms.

Acts 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, as He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

John the Baptist paved the way for what the disciples were going to do. His baptism did not give the gift of the Holy Spirit as our baptism does. So when people only received John's baptism, they of course, did not receive the Holy Spirit. A Christian baptism is where someone is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Josiah]

You keep stating Jewish baptism but the Jewish people did not baptise

Wrong. They had THREE rites - all called baptism. One involved things (and hands) thus made "holy" and worthy for worship.... one was a rite of repentance.... one was an adoption into the Jewish (old) covenant. The second had the moniker of "Baptism of Repentance". What does the Bible call John's?

When the Jewish Prophet John the Baptist was at the river baptizing people, people didn’t walk by and say, “What’s he doing? That’s a strange thing!” They knew what he was doing, he was baptizing; he was doing something very common and familiar to them. For example, there were mikva’ot (mikvehs), Jewish ritual baptisms for ritual purity. Before you could go worship, you would ritually immerse your hands (and maybe even yourself) and this wasn’t necessarily for hygiene or for cleanliness, it was for spiritual purity. You would make yourself pure so that you could go in the presence of the deity, you could worship, you could offer sacrifices. There were other forms of the rite, too. So, long before Christianity developed the idea of baptism, Jews had been practicing ritual baptisms. NOWHERE does any biblical text so much as hint that John was doing anything new or rare. Indeed, the Essene JEWISH community was formed around baptism.

In any case, history aside, JOHN (a JEWISH prophet) HIMSELF says the baptism he is doing is NOT that of Jesus, NOT a Christian baptism. His involves only water. JOHN HIMSELF notes that Jesus' Baptism (Christian Baptism) will be DIFFERENT, it will involve the Holy Spirit.

Where you make a wrong leap is by ASSUMING that Jesus' CHRISTIAN Baptism will be not just different but ADDITIONAL - that John's JEWISH water-only (no Holy Spirit) baptism will continue among Christians BUT there will be an ADDITIONAL, separate, Christian Baptism of Spirit only (no water). John doesn't say his will continue, he says Jesus' will be DIFFERENT. It doesn't require rocket science to see how cuz he says so, Jesus' will involve the Holy Spirit.


Where is the verse that shows Ephesians 4:5 to be wrong, the one that says, "But there are TWO Christian Baptisms, one with water only and one with only the Holy Spirit?"




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[Amos Ministries]

John the Baptist paved the way for what the disciples were going to do. His baptism did not give the gift of the Holy Spirit as our baptism does. So when people only received John's baptism, they of course, did not receive the Holy Spirit. A Christian baptism is where someone is baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit for the forgiveness of sins.

Acts 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria(Q) had accepted the word of God,(R)they sent Peter and John(S) to Samaria.15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,(T) 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them;(U) they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.(V) 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them,(W) and they received the Holy Spirit.(X)

 

[Lamb]

Acts 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria(Q) had accepted the word of God,(R)they sent Peter and John(S) to Samaria.15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,(T) 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them;(U) they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.(V) 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them,(W) and they received the Holy Spirit.(X)

Thanks for posting that since it backs up what I believe that the Holy Spirit should come upon us when we are baptized. You see, the verse states He had not "yet" come on any of them. Then it shows WHY. They had only been baptized in the name of Jesus...our baptism is a true one when it's in the trinitarian formula "In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

 

[Amos Ministries]

Thanks for posting that since it backs up what I believe that the Holy Spirit should come upon us when we are baptized. You see, the verse states He had not "yet" come on any of them. Then it shows WHY. They had only been baptized in the name of Jesus...our baptism is a true one when it's in the trinitarian formula "In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.