Doesn’t the book of Hebrews reference Maccabees?

NathanH83

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In Hebrews 11:35, it says:

“Women received their dead raised to life again. Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.”
-Hebrews 11:35 (NKJV)

Now, when it says women received their dead raised to life, that’s talking about Elijah and Elisha, who both raised a boy from the dead and presented the boy to his mother.

But when it says others were tortured, that’s clearly referencing the 7 brothers who were tortured by King Antiochus in 2 Maccabees chapter 7.
 

Josiah

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No.

Nowhere in the Book of Hebrews is a verse that states, "One of the four books of Maccabees....."

So, no, there is no reference to any book with the word "Maccabees" in its moniker made in the Book of Hebrews.




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Andrew

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No.

Nowhere in the Book of Hebrews is a verse that states, "One of the four books of Maccabees....."

So, no, there is no reference to any book with the word "Maccabees" in its moniker made in the Book of Hebrews.




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"Obtaining a better resurrection" is one of the main themes in Maccabees, while everyone else was asleep not securing the Temple, Maccabees reinstated it by driving the pagans out, Jesus would later do the same thing by driving out the money pushers in the Temple, Judah Maccabee was intimately focused on the resurrection and with such passion that God (yes literally the God of the Bible) found it very pleasing that Judah was so concerned with his fallen comrades resurrection when the Messiah comes, did the offerings do the men any good? That's beside the point, his heart was in the right place.
 

NathanH83

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No.

Nowhere in the Book of Hebrews is a verse that states, "One of the four books of Maccabees....."

So, no, there is no reference to any book with the word "Maccabees" in its moniker made in the Book of Hebrews.




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You failed to answer the question.
You have not provided the information as to who the tortured men are.
2 Maccabees 7 is the best match by far. You haven’t provided a better explanation.
You fail.

You get an F-
 

Josiah

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You failed to answer the question.

No. I answered it very correctly. IMO, undeniably.

If I'm wrong, then it's simply: Just quote the words in Hebrews "First and/or Second and/or Third and/or Fourth Maccabees....." To reference a book, the book AT A VERY MINIMUM just be at least mentioned. Obviously. Of course.



.
 

NathanH83

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No. I answered it very correctly. IMO, undeniably.

If I'm wrong, then it's simply: Just quote the words in Hebrews "First and/or Second and/or Third and/or Fourth Maccabees....." To reference a book, the book AT A VERY MINIMUM just be at least mentioned. Obviously. Of course.



.

Again, you still haven’t answered who the tortured men are. 2 Maccabees still remains the best explanation.
 

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No. I answered it very correctly. IMO, undeniably.

If I'm wrong, then it's simply: Just quote the words in Hebrews "First and/or Second and/or Third and/or Fourth Maccabees....." To reference a book, the book AT A VERY MINIMUM just be at least mentioned. Obviously. Of course.



.
So when the NT alludes to something in the protestant OT its beyond a doubt a fact but if it alludes to an apocrypha book it's far from it because the Apocrypha is no more special than Dr Seuss books, got it.

Perhaps if we ever discover time travel we can send missionaries back in time to tell all the Christians up to the 1800s that they aren't reading the Holy Bible, the true Holy Bible starts with the revised second edition KJV so just thought you should know
 

NathanH83

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So when the NT alludes to something in the protestant OT its beyond a doubt a fact but if it alludes to an apocrypha book it's far from it because the Apocrypha is no more special than Dr Seuss books, got it.

Perhaps if we ever discover time travel we can send missionaries back in time to tell all the Christians up to the 1800s that they aren't reading the Holy Bible, the true Holy Bible starts with the revised second edition KJV so just thought you should know

What I don’t understand is why Josiah thinks that a book has to be mentioned by name in order for it to be referenced.

For example, when Hebrews 11:33 says that there were those who by faith shut the mouths of lions, we know that this is a reference to Daniel, with the story of the lions den. It doesn’t have to reference the book of Daniel by name in order to know that.

Same with verse 34 that mentions those who by faith quenched the flames of fire. That’s clearly a reference to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. Though it doesn’t mention the book of Daniel by name.

Or when Hebrews mentions Gideon, Samson, Barak, and Jephthah, those are all men from the book of Judges. It doesn’t mention the book of Judges by name. But it’s obviously referencing the book of Judges.

And yet Josiah presumes that Hebrews 11:35 isn’t referencing the book of Maccabees simply because the word Maccabees isn’t mentioned.

That’s one of the most illogical and intellectually dishonest thing I’ve ever heard, and shows clear evidence of anti-Catholic bigotry, rather than just honestly acknowledging the truth of what’s being referenced.
 

pinacled

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What I don’t understand is why Josiah thinks that a book has to be mentioned by name in order for it to be referenced.

For example, when Hebrews 11:33 says that there were those who by faith shut the mouths of lions, we know that this is a reference to Daniel, with the story of the lions den. It doesn’t have to reference the book of Daniel by name in order to know that.

Same with verse 34 that mentions those who by faith quenched the flames of fire. That’s clearly a reference to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. Though it doesn’t mention the book of Daniel by name.

Or when Hebrews mentions Gideon, Samson, Barak, and Jephthah, those are all men from the book of Judges. It doesn’t mention the book of Judges by name. But it’s obviously referencing the book of Judges.

And yet Josiah presumes that Hebrews 11:35 isn’t referencing the book of Maccabees simply because the word Maccabees isn’t mentioned.

That’s one of the most illogical and intellectually dishonest thing I’ve ever heard, and shows clear evidence of anti-Catholic bigotry, rather than just honestly acknowledging the truth of what’s being referenced.
Heheh
"Anti catholic"

Are you catholic?
 

NathanH83

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Heheh
"Anti catholic"

Are you catholic?

I’m not Catholic. No. But because of the fact that Catholics accept these books and Protestants don’t, then some Protestants will deny the obvious truth that Hebrews 11:35 is referencing Maccabees simply because they want to deny anything even remotely related to Catholicism.

I have no interest in defending Catholicism. But it does appear that the author of Hebrews accepted Maccabees as a part of Biblical history. I believe that because I believe the New Testament, NOT because of any desire to defend Catholicism.

Tell me, who are the tortured men?
 

pinacled

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I’m not Catholic. No. But because of the fact that Catholics accept these books and Protestants don’t, then some Protestants will deny the obvious truth that Hebrews 11:35 is referencing Maccabees simply because they want to deny anything even remotely related to Catholicism.

I have no interest in defending Catholicism. But it does appear that the author of Hebrews accepted Maccabees as a part of Biblical history. I believe that because I believe the New Testament, NOT because of any desire to defend Catholicism.

Tell me, who are the tortured men?
The "tortured men" are elders and prophets killed.
Context youngin

Hebrews 11
[ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.]
 

NathanH83

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The "tortured men" are elders and prophets killed.
Context youngin

Hebrews 11
[ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.]

You didn’t answer the question.

Who specifically was tortured? Mention it. Reference the specific verse.

2 Maccabees 7 specifically mentions men being tortured. There’s nothing like this in the Old Testament. No story of men being tortured anywhere in the Old Testament. You have nothing.
 

pinacled

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You didn’t answer the question.

Who specifically was tortured? Mention it. Reference the specific verse.

2 Maccabees 7 specifically mentions men being tortured. There’s nothing like this in the Old Testament. No story of men being tortured anywhere in the Old Testament. You have nothing.
Very well.
Where is torture mentioned in the account of maccabees?
 

Andrew

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The "tortured men" are elders and prophets killed.
Context youngin

Hebrews 11
[ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.]
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Hebrews 13:2

Those "some" are found in Tobit, but I guess it's just some broad statement that's talking about people whom weren't special enough to be recorded and are long forgotten... give me a break, its Tobit. And the tortured men are in Maccabees.

Fact: Archaeologists have uncovered some 1,600 Jewish epitaphs from the Mediterranean world, dating from 300 B.C. to 500 A.D. About 70% of these Jewish epitaphs are in Greek. Only 18% of them are in Aramaic or Hebrew—combined! Even in Palestine, about two-thirds of the epitaphs are in Greek. This is strong evidence that the greater part of the Jewish population in ancient Palestine spoke Greek as their daily language. This fact is corroborated by other archaeological findings. For example, a number of ancient synagogues have been unearthed in Palestine during the past century. Of these synagogues, 67 have inscriptions in Greek, 54 have inscriptions in Aramaic, and only 14 have Hebrew inscriptions. And this is in Palestine!
 

NathanH83

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Very well.
Where is torture mentioned in the account of maccabees?

Read 2 Maccabees chapter 7.
I can provide a link if you’d like.
 

NathanH83

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Very well.
Where is torture mentioned in the account of maccabees?

Here’s a link:


 

pinacled

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Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Hebrews 13:2

Those "some" are found in Tobit, but I guess it's just some broad statement that's talking about people whom weren't special enough to be recorded and are long forgotten... give me a break, its Tobit. And the tortured men are in Maccabees.

Fact: Archaeologists have uncovered some 1,600 Jewish epitaphs from the Mediterranean world, dating from 300 B.C. to 500 A.D. About 70% of these Jewish epitaphs are in Greek. Only 18% of them are in Aramaic or Hebrew—combined! Even in Palestine, about two-thirds of the epitaphs are in Greek. This is strong evidence that the greater part of the Jewish population in ancient Palestine spoke Greek as their daily language. This fact is corroborated by other archaeological findings. For example, a number of ancient synagogues have been unearthed in Palestine during the past century. Of these synagogues, 67 have inscriptions in Greek, 54 have inscriptions in Aramaic, and only 14 have Hebrew inscriptions. And this is in Palestine!
When citing source material it's best to use brackets and a link.
 

pinacled

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Here’s a link:


Interesting numerical composition.
One of the 7 spoke reminds me of faithfulnes to shabbat.

Thankyou sir nathan
 

NathanH83

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Interesting numerical composition.
One of the 7 spoke reminds me of faithfulnes to shabbat.

Thankyou sir nathan

You’re welcome
 
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