Does Isaiah 7:14 prophesy a virgin birth?

[NathanH83]

The word for virgin in Hebrew is “bethulah.”
The word for virgin in Greek is “parthenos.”

For example, Genesis 24 says Rebekah was a virgin. The Hebrew says bethulah and the Greek Septuagint says parthenos.

Esther was a virgin. The book of Esther says the king sent messengers to round up beautiful young virgins, of whom Esther was one. The Hebrew says Bethulah, and the Septuagint Greek says Parthenos.

But when Isaiah says the “virgin shall be with child” the Hebrew says “Almah” which simply means “young woman” and has nothing to do with virginity.

So when the Greek Septuagint says parthenos in Isaiah 7:14, clearly that’s just something that Christians added to the text in order to make it seem like Jesus is the Messiah. Therefore, the Greek Septuagint isn’t true to the original Hebrew. And when Matthew’s gospel quotes “parthenos” he’s clearly quoting the Septuagint and not the Hebrew, since the Hebrew doesn’t say that. So Matthew’s gospel is wrong too.

The Dead Sea Scrolls contain an Isaiah scroll carbon dated to 150 BC. It says almah. So nobody can say that the Hebrew has been corrupted after the time of Christ. Because we all know how accurate carbon dating is, and can confidently place our faith in carbon dating.

 

[Lamb]

The word for virgin in Hebrew is “bethulah.”
The word for virgin in Greek is “parthenos.”

For example, Genesis 24 says Rebekah was a virgin. The Hebrew says bethulah and the Greek Septuagint says parthenos.

Esther was a virgin. The book of Esther says the king sent messengers to round up beautiful young virgins, of whom Esther was one. The Hebrew says Bethulah, and the Septuagint Greek says Parthenos.

But when Isaiah says the “virgin shall be with child” the Hebrew says “Almah” which simply means “young woman” and has nothing to do with virginity.

So when the Greek Septuagint says parthenos in Isaiah 7:14, clearly that’s just something that Christians added to the text in order to make it seem like Jesus is the Messiah. Therefore, the Greek Septuagint isn’t true to the original Hebrew. And when Matthew’s gospel quotes “parthenos” he’s clearly quoting the Septuagint and not the Hebrew, since the Hebrew doesn’t say that. So Matthew’s gospel is wrong too.

The Dead Sea Scrolls contain an Isaiah scroll carbon dated to 150 BC. It says almah. So nobody can say that the Hebrew has been corrupted after the time of Christ. Because we all know how accurate carbon dating is, and can confidently place our faith in carbon dating.

Matthew is "wrong" you say? The New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.

 

[NathanH83]

Matthew is "wrong" you say? The New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.

Actually Matthew’s gospel may have been written in Hebrew.

But we have Matthew’s gospel in Greek, and Matthew says parthenos. That’s a Greek word, it means virgin. But the Hebrew masoretic says almah, which means young woman.

So, if the Hebrew Masoretic is correct, then Matthew’s gospel is wrong.

Unless you want to suggest there was an older Hebrew text from before the time of Christ that said Bethulah.

 

[atpollard]

Deuteronomy 22:13-21 [NASB]
13 "If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and [then] turns against her, 14 and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, [but] when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' 15 then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the [evidence] of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. 16 "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; 17 and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. 18 "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, 19 and they shall fine him a hundred [shekels] of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.
20 "But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, 21 then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.​

So which is it, is the Messiah to be born of a virgin or a harlot, since those are the only two choices for a “young (unmarried) woman”? Should Mary be venerated as the recipient of a miracle or stoned as an unmarried non-virgin? Did Matthew correctly divide the word of God in Isaiah or not?

 

[atpollard]

But when Isaiah says the “virgin shall be with child” the Hebrew says “Almah” which simply means “young woman” and has nothing to do with virginity.

Alma indeed does not convey the notion of unspotted virginity (like bethulah), neither does it convey the idea of an unmarried state, rather it speaks of the nubile state and puberty. (see Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon)

• "There is no instance where it can be proved that 'almâ designates a young woman who is not a virgin. The fact of virginity is obvious in Gen 24:43 where 'almâ is used of one who was being sought as a bride for Isaac." (R. Laird Harris, et al. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, p. 672.)

 

[eddif]

Matthew is "wrong" you say? The New Testament wasn't written in Hebrew.

Ok
Right now I am an outsider (just joined).
My entrance into Christ is as a Gentile.
For a gentile to do the law is a miracle. For a gentile to understand the law is probably a miracle also.
(how be it the Gentiles being without the law, do the very things the law says, showing that the law is written in / on their hearts).
Gentiles have no background to understand the law. Seldom will a gentile discuss the law with intelligence.
( I will put my law in their hearts and minds)

I agree on the Greek statement and it is a miracle to discuss Hebrew Mosaic Law in Greek, but I believe in a God of miracles. English is my language (sorry).
Hebrew law has: (correct the mistakes)
Betrothed period
Marriage without sex (keep as a virgin)
Marriage with sex.
Stoning if you break the law
A plain old gentile has almost no rules, but as a saved person can not really discuss the subject very well.
The idea is to make one new man out of Jew and gentile.
Virgin yes
Joseph understand special circumstances yes
No stoning yes
Hard to get a grip on all this yes

Rough on Jew and gentile alike. Who has advantage? Christian Jew.

eddif

 

[Lamb]

Ok
Right now I am an outsider (just joined).
My entrance into Christ is as a Gentile.
For a gentile to do the law is a miracle. For a gentile to understand the law is probably a miracle also.
(how be it the Gentiles being without the law, do the very things the law says, showing that the law is written in / on their hearts).
Gentiles have no background to understand the law. Seldom will a gentile discuss the law with intelligence.
( I will put my law in their hearts and minds)

I agree on the Greek statement and it is a miracle to discuss Hebrew Mosaic Law in Greek, but I believe in a God of miracles. English is my language (sorry).
Hebrew law has: (correct the mistakes)
Betrothed period
Marriage without sex (keep as a virgin)
Marriage with sex.
Stoning if you break the law
A plain old gentile has almost no rules, but as a saved person can not really discuss the subject very well.
The idea is to make one new man out of Jew and gentile.
Virgin yes
Joseph understand special circumstances yes
No stoning yes
Hard to get a grip on all this yes

Rough on Jew and gentile alike. Who has advantage? Christian Jew.

eddif

Law and Gospel CAN be properly distinguished by Gentiles, so I disagree that you think we cannot understand it.

There is a book called The Proper Distinction Between Law and Gospel by Walther that could help you to understand it better.

 

[eddif]

LOL. I basically said it is very rare to find a gentile who can truly compare the law and gospel with Christian Jewish intelligence. The law and prophets contain the message of the gospel in a veiled shrouded way .
Please do not jump to conclusions about what I am saying. I want to discuss things with others and not have to defend myself all the time.
(The two women are two covenants).

eddif

 

[Lamb]

LOL. I basically said it is very rare to find a gentile who can truly compare the law and gospel with Christian Jewish intelligence. The law and prophets contain the message of the gospel in a veiled shrouded way .
Please do not jump to conclusions about what I am saying. I want to discuss things with others and not have to defend myself all the time.
(The two women are two covenants).

eddif

That's not true. God wants us to know His Law and Gospel. He has not hidden it from us.

 

[eddif]

LOL I know he wants us to know His Law. I am stressing it (Law) comes by God putting it in us and not out of carnal gentile reasoning.
He really wants Jew and gentile to become one new man.
I am not promoting a TV program one new man either.
I am not the enemy. I may fit some profile, but I hope my intentions are honerable.
.
The NT is basically / predominately written by Jewish Christians.

Recently I have been bombarded by those who preach Replacement Theology. We do not replace the Jewish Christians. Gentiles are warned in Romans 11 about becoming arrogant (in lack of a better word).

This thread is about virgins, and my first post in this thread stated Gentiles have a hard time seeing the fullness of Lawfull virginity. That for them to see it, God gets the credit for their understanding. God places the Law in our hearts and minds.

I am trying to formulate a thread that removes this discussion from blotting out Virginity. Although the original Virginity of Israel is probably a main higher level discussion that could be included in any discussion of virginity.

eddif

 

[Lamb]

LOL I know he wants us to know His Law. I am stressing it (Law) comes by God putting it in us and not out of carnal gentile reasoning.
He really wants Jew and gentile to become one new man.
I am not promoting a TV program one new man either.
I am not the enemy. I may fit some profile, but I hope my intentions are honerable.
.
The NT is basically / predominately written by Jewish Christians.

Recently I have been bombarded by those who preach Replacement Theology. We do not replace the Jewish Christians. Gentiles are warned in Romans 11 about becoming arrogant (in lack of a better word).

This thread is about virgins, and my first post in this thread stated Gentiles have a hard time seeing the fullness of Lawfull virginity. That for them to see it, God gets the credit for their understanding. God places the Law in our hearts and minds.

I am trying to formulate a thread that removes this discussion from blotting out Virginity. Although the original Virginity of Israel is probably a main higher level discussion that could be included in any discussion of virginity.

eddif

God's Law isn't difficult to understand and is not hidden from us. The Holy Spirit guides us into knowing His Law because it is good and Holy. The Holy Spirit uses the Law to convict us of our sins.

As for the OP, young Hebrew/Jewish women were generally virgins and not as sexually active as modern women are.

 

[eddif]

God's Law isn't difficult to understand and is not hidden from us. The Holy Spirit guides us into knowing His Law because it is good and Holy. The Holy Spirit uses the Law to convict us of our sins.

As for the OP, young Hebrew/Jewish women were generally virgins and not as sexually active as modern women are.

We are agreeing. We each posted basically the same thoughts 1 minute apart.

 

[eddif]

We are agreeing. We each posted basically the same thoughts 1 minute apart.

Sorry 4 minutes apart.

 

[eddif]

God's Law isn't difficult to understand and is not hidden from us. The Holy Spirit guides us into knowing His Law because it is good and Holy. The Holy Spirit uses the Law to convict us of our sins.

As for the OP, young Hebrew/Jewish women were generally virgins and not as sexually active as modern women are.

John 16:8 kjv

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

I am not against you. I want so bad to break down the walk that seems to exist between us.

Jesus is the sermonial sacrifice lamb on which the sins were placed.

eddif

 

[eddif]

John 16:8 kjv

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.

I am not against you. I want so bad to break down the walk that seems to exist between us.

Jesus is the sermonial sacrifice lamb on which the sins were placed.

eddif

Wall

 

[eddif]

Back to virginity
Ezekiel 23 describes two daughters that were violated in their virginity.
To post the verses would offend some because of the vulgarity, but ultimately Gods love is sometimes tough love.

eddif

 

[Origen]

Back to virginity
Ezekiel 23 describes two daughters that were violated in their virginity.
To post the verses would offend some because of the vulgarity, but ultimately Gods love is sometimes tough love.

Nothing vulgar about it.

The word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother. They played the whore in Egypt; they played the whore in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and their virgin bosoms handled. Oholah was the name of the elder and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem. (Ezek. 23:1-5)

 

[eddif]

So as a group where do we fit?
Which daughter are we?
Do we see our lost virginity?

 

[eddif]

So our heritage could not provide a new spiritual birth. Jesus evidently had to come from a virgin to overcome our heritage.
So some prophetic statements were made . The OP is telling of the coming virgin birth.

eddif

 

[Origen]

So as a group where do we fit?
Which daughter are we?
Do we see our lost virginity?

In its original context Oholah is Samaria (nothern kingdom), and Oholibah is Jerusalem (southern kindgom). Thus the two daughters represented the period of the divided kingdoms.

Both Oholah and Oholibah are derived from the Hebrew verb אהל "to pitch tent" (the noun form is אֹהֶל = tent).

Typically the Hebrew names are understood as "her tent" = Oholah and "my tent in her" = Oholibah.