Do the ends justify the means?

[MennoSota]

Is there ever a time when the ends justify the means?
Corrie Ten Boom and family his Jews in Amsterdam during WWII. She felt that lying to spare others was acceptable. He sister said no. There is never an acceptable time to do what is wrong.
Churches around us may look the other way when it means they get money in their account.
Can we ever justify the means because the end result is favorable to us?

 

[Arsenios]

I am surprised no one has replied...

When murderers ask you to help find them more victims, you do not help them...
Indeed, diverting them from their evil is a good thing...
Nazis looking for Jend ws are helped most by not being helped...
And sometimes by being prevented from doing what they seek to do...

Personally, I simply ask God's forgiveness...
For being so sinful that I can think of no better way...
And inwardly I pray for the person I am about to lie to...
Remembering also intended victims...

I have not done so in decades...
These days, I don't know...
Truth is addictive...
Martyrdom not undesirable...

The basic idea is to do the best one can for the person before you...
Christ healed Pilate's relationship with his brother...
Unseen and unacknowledged...
Except by posterity...

God places us in every situation...
Each is an opportunity to be of help...
He will often also show us how...
Yet there are "Devil's alternatives"...

In the face of these...
"Whose death do you prefer?"
A possible response is not to participate...
"Do whichever evil you love..." is a viable response...

In the Service of our Lord...
We are to care for souls...
To bring them to Christ...
God will lead the pure in heart...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is there ever a time when the ends justify the means?
Corrie Ten Boom and family his Jews in Amsterdam during WWII. She felt that lying to spare others was acceptable. He sister said no. There is never an acceptable time to do what is wrong.
Churches around us may look the other way when it means they get money in their account.
Can we ever justify the means because the end result is favorable to us?

James 2:24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave.

Joshua 2: 1 Joshua sent two spies secretly from Shittim with the following order “Go and look over the land well, especially the city of Jericho.” The spies went and as soon as they came to Jericho, they went to the house of the prostitute named Rahab. 2 But someone told the king of Jericho: “Some Israelites have entered here tonight to spy on us.” 3 So the king of Jericho sent word to Rahab: “Send those men out of your house because they came to spy on the land.” 4 But the woman had hidden them, so she said: “It is true; they came to my house but I did not know where they came from. 5 And at nightfall, shortly before the city gates were to be closed, they went out. I do not know where they went, but hurry and you will surely overtake them.” 6 The woman had hidden them on the roof of the house, under the stalks of flax which she kept there. 7 The pursuers went to search for them by the road leading to the valley of the Jordan, and as they went out, the city gates were closed.

Was Rahab sinning by telling a lie to save the spies? You decide for yourself. But Remember what saint James wrote. He commended Rahab's action to save the spies. Did the end (saving them) justify the means (telling a lie)?

 

[MennoSota]

James 2:24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave.

Joshua 2: 1 Joshua sent two spies secretly from Shittim with the following order “Go and look over the land well, especially the city of Jericho.” The spies went and as soon as they came to Jericho, they went to the house of the prostitute named Rahab. 2 But someone told the king of Jericho: “Some Israelites have entered here tonight to spy on us.” 3 So the king of Jericho sent word to Rahab: “Send those men out of your house because they came to spy on the land.” 4 But the woman had hidden them, so she said: “It is true; they came to my house but I did not know where they came from. 5 And at nightfall, shortly before the city gates were to be closed, they went out. I do not know where they went, but hurry and you will surely overtake them.” 6 The woman had hidden them on the roof of the house, under the stalks of flax which she kept there. 7 The pursuers went to search for them by the road leading to the valley of the Jordan, and as they went out, the city gates were closed.

Was Rahab sinning by telling a lie to save the spies? You decide for yourself. But Remember what saint James wrote. He commended Rahab's action to save the spies. Did the end (saving them) justify the means (telling a lie)?

Yes, Rahab sinned. God's grace is greater than our sin. Should we continue in sin that grace may abound?
James commended Rahab's faith in the God of Israel. He did not commend her lie.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, Rahab sinned. God's grace is greater than our sin. Should we continue in sin that grace may abound?
James commended Rahab's faith in the God of Israel. He did not commend her lie.

Your reply looks like it is hasty to condemn. Rahab is not criticised for lying in any passage of the holy scriptures that I can recall so why do you write "Rahab sinned" as if you had divine revelation to teach that Rahab's lie to the Jericho rulers was a sin.

 

[MennoSota]

Your reply looks like it is hasty to condemn. Rahab is not criticised for lying in any passage of the holy scriptures that I can recall so why do you write "Rahab sinned" as if you had divine revelation to teach that Rahab's lie to the Jericho rulers was a sin.

Does the Bible condone lying or is lying a sin?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Does the Bible condone lying or is lying a sin?

Didn't you ask if the ends justify the means? Rahab's lie is the means by which the spies were saved. Saving the spies is commended by God. And Rahab is praised. So you tell me, did the ends justify the means in the story?

 

[MennoSota]

Didn't you ask if the ends justify the means? Rahab'e lie is the means by which the spies were saved. Saving the spies is commended by God. And Rahab is praised. So you tell me, did the ends justify the means in the story?

This does not mean that the ends justify the means. It means that God uses sinners and their actions to his glory.
Rahab is commended for the faith God gave her, not for her lying.
Does God condone lying?

 

[Lamb]

A sin is still a sin even if it helps out someone in the end.

 

[Arsenios]

Rahab sinned.

No she didn't...

Had she betrayed the spies,
THEN...
She would have sinned...

But she did NOT betray the SERVANTS of God to God's ENEMIES...

THAT would BE a SIN...

So you are mistaken in this approach...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Does the Bible condone lying or is lying a sin?

The Bible is not a moralistic book...

It is the Book of God...

She lied to the enemies of God for the sake of the Servants of God...

She risked her life for their sakes...

And here you come all righteous and moralistic...

And call her a sinner because she acted to protect God's Servants...

The Bible is about your Righteous relationship with God...

It is NOT about your philosophical moralism regarding saying things not true...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Bible is not a moralistic book...

It is the Book of God...

She lied to the enemies of God for the sake of the Servants of God...

She risked her life for their sakes...

And here you come all righteous and moralistic...

And call her a sinner because she acted to protect God's Servants...

The Bible is about your Righteous relationship with God...

It is NOT about your philosophical moralism regarding saying things not true...

Arsenios

There's a whiff in the air here, like a 'base party' being set up for a 'fall'. The call is to mount the high horse, charge forward, slay the immoral, and claim the jousting trophy. Only thing is that like the tale of Don Quixote this is a joust at a windmill.

 

[MennoSota]

No she didn't...

Had she betrayed the spies,
THEN...
She would have sinned...

But she did NOT betray the SERVANTS of God to God's ENEMIES...

THAT would BE a SIN...

So you are mistaken in this approach...

Arsenios

Would God have honored her had she not lied? She is commended for her faith, not for her lie.

 

[MennoSota]

The Bible is not a moralistic book...

It is the Book of God...

She lied to the enemies of God for the sake of the Servants of God...

She risked her life for their sakes...

And here you come all righteous and moralistic...

And call her a sinner because she acted to protect God's Servants...

The Bible is about your Righteous relationship with God...

It is NOT about your philosophical moralism regarding saying things not true...

Arsenios

Wad Rachel exempt from sinning? Hardly. We find that she is a prostitute running a brothel in Jericho.
God does not commend her behavior. God commends her faith. God, by grace uses her sinful nature to accomplish His will. That is a great reminder to us that despite our often wicked and sinful behavior, God is gracious and uses us for His glory anyhow.

 

[MennoSota]

We often try to justify our behavior because our plans worked out favorably...for us. This does not mean the end justified the means.

 

[Lamb]

Would God have honored her had she not lied? She is commended for her faith, not for her lie.

You are correct. The bible neither condemns nor praises the lie. But the bible does condemn bearing false witness.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You are correct. The bible neither condemns nor praises the lie. But the bible does condemn bearing false witness.

Holy scripture commends the act of saving the spies and integral to that act is the deception wrought on the Jericho guards.

 

[Lamb]

Holy scripture commends the act of saving the spies and integral to that act is the deception wrought on the Jericho guards.

Hiding the spies saved them.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hiding the spies saved them.

The spies were hidden under some reeds up on the roof. But the act of hiding them worked only by saying to the Jericho guards "they left" which was the lie that she told. The guards didn't bother doing a search because Rahab - being a Jericho citizen - said they left. Evidently she was trusted. Anyway, it is a bit silly to pretend that Rahab was commended for putting them up on the roof and under some reeds but that she sinned by lying and hence "deserved condemnation" for sinning. But if you want to do the silly thing okay. Nobody can stop you. But it is good to keep in view what Joshua says happened "But Rahab had hidden them, so she said: “It is true; they came to my house but I did not know where they came from. And at nightfall, shortly before the city gates were to be closed, they went out. I do not know where they went, but hurry and you will surely overtake them.” "

 

[Lamb]

The spies were hidden under some reeds up on the roof. But the act of hiding them worked only by saying to the Jericho guards "they left" which was the lie that she told. The guards didn't bother doing a search because Rahab - being a Jericho citizen - said they left. Evidently she was trusted. Anyway, it is a bit silly to pretend that Rahab was commended for putting them up on the roof and under some reeds but that she sinned by lying and hence "deserved condemnation" for sinning. But if you want to do the silly thing okay. Nobody can stop you. But it is good to keep in view what Joshua says happened "But Rahab had hidden them, so she said: “It is true; they came to my house but I did not know where they came from. And at nightfall, shortly before the city gates were to be closed, they went out. I do not know where they went, but hurry and you will surely overtake them.” "

What "silly thing" (your words) are you accusing me of doing?