Do believe enough?

[MoreCoffee]

I saw a critique of the "prosperity gospel" made by a comedian (an Englishman on USA tv) named John Oliver. He uses bad language liberally so I will not link the video clip here. But it got me wondering if folk here believe the messages preached by men and women like Kenneth Copeland and Gloria Copeland (his wife), Robert Titon, and others?

 

[Josiah]

The PROBLEM is when Law and Gospel are confused, mixed-up, twisted together.....


In JUSTIFICATION (narrow), it's all about Jesus, all about the Cross, all about the Empty Tomb..... Jesus (ALONE!) ..... IS ...... THE (one, only, all-sufficient)...... SAVIOR (not just helper or possibility maker). The point of faith here is not HOW MUCH or HOW HARD but IN WHOM, the point is the object of faith (who/what is being trusted as THE SAVIOR - the one we see in the mirror or the one we see on the Cross?). Emphasis on "how much YOU __________" (fill in the blank with anything) is a perversion of Christianity, a destruction of the Gospel, a substitution of the Law for the Gospel, an insistence that we must look in the mirror rather than lifting high the Cross.


Now, in SANCTIFICATION (narrow) - our lives as Christians, our response to justification, our growth toward being Christ-like - yes, here, OUR efforts and will and performance matter. And yes, it MAY result in blessings here (as a GENERAL rule, goodness is a good thing and may result in good for others and maybe even self) and even hereafter. But not necessarily. Look what happened to Jesus!!!! Look what happened to most of the Apostles!!!! Jesus promised us NOT worldly prosperity and riches, He promised us persecution, the cross. In fact, Scripture suggests that growth and spiritual blessing comes NOT through an easy life but through suffering, hardship, pain.


Soli Deo Gloria



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

I do not think that "the prosperity gospel" has much to do with law-gospel distinctions such as you've made in your post Josiah. It's about wealth and earthly blessings that its teachers appear to think Christians are entitled to as children of God.

 

[NewCreation435]

I saw a critique of the "prosperity gospel" made by a comedian (an Englishman on USA tv) named John Oliver. He uses bad language liberally so I will not link the video clip here. But it got me wondering if folk here believe the messages preached by men and women like Kenneth Copeland and Gloria Copeland (his wife), Robert Titon, and others?

I hope not, those people scare me. :eek2:

 

[psalms 91]

While I agree that many will be poor I also wonder how you square Abraham and David and Solomon, seems like God blessed their socks off and I also think that if it is His will then it is for us, the key is hearing God and knowing is will in your life

 

[Josiah]

I do not think that "the prosperity gospel" has much to do with law-gospel distinctions such as you've made in your post Josiah. It's about wealth and earthly blessings that its teachers appear to think Christians are entitled to as children of God.

We are ENTITLED to nothing.* To think God OWES us something is a twisting, confusing, perversion of Law and Gospel.

The only one who walked the Earth His entire life as holy and always doing God's will...... was penniless and suffered enormously. God's will for His children obviously isn't relative worldly riches and prosperity in a worldy, secular sense (or Jesus would be one of the worst sinners and child of God).

Again, the whole problem here is confusing Law and Gospel, Sanctification and Justification..... and as you point out, thinking that self is the Lord and that God is our pet who OWES us so much.



- Josiah



* Well, we are entitled to death and hell.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The prosperity gospel teachers say Christians are entitled to earthly blessings and health and other things because being children of God they have "rights" as heirs with Christ ... some of the preachers are, apparently, entitled to private jets, mansion homes, and luxurious holidays in the snow or on the south Mediterranean coast of France.

 

[Cassia]

'Name it and claim it' doctrine of prosperity is just not true. God may bless a new believer with gifts of material things but I think that's not according to a mature way of looking at the gospels. The wealth of the patriarchs had huge responsibility to everyone within their gates. Job's wealth was stripped away till his righteousness could be replaced with Gods and Jesus suffered as an example 1 Peter 2:21

I don't think it's a matter of law and grace either. Justification in that sense is seen as suffering but not all who are justified have had to suffer. And some people's lot in life includes vast amounts of wealth. That wouldn't exclude them from gaining grace. What may exclude them is in the thought of the use of it.

Gifts and riches come from an interior wealth that is treasure stored in heaven and in that is suffering obedience carried out. my 2 c :shrug:

 

[Josiah]

Justification in that sense is seen as suffering but not all who are justified have had to suffer.

I'm not sure what you mean by "in THAT sense."

IMO, justification DOES mean suffering - literally the Cross, the Blood of the Lamb... there is no forgiveness without the shedding of Blood, in justification, that's Jesus' blood (not our own).

I agree that justification does NOT mean only suffering (my life is a good testimony to that). WE don't NEED to suffer because we have the Savior. On the other hand, we are never promised a rose garden, we are never told that life as a Christian will be a pleasure cruise on the Good Ship Lollipop. What we are told is that there will be persecution, suffering (although obviously not PURELY so and EQUALLY so). If being loved by God means being exempt from bad, then Jesus was the least loved one ever.


Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[Cassia]

I'm not sure what you mean by "in THAT sense."

IMO, justification DOES mean suffering - literally the Cross, the Blood of the Lamb... there is no forgiveness without the shedding of Blood, in justification, that's Jesus' blood (not our own).

I agree that justification does NOT mean only suffering (my life is a good testimony to that). WE don't NEED to suffer because we have the Savior. On the other hand, we are never promised a rose garden, we are never told that life as a Christian will be a pleasure cruise on the Good Ship Lollipop. What we are told is that there will be persecution, suffering (although obviously not PURELY so and EQUALLY so). If being loved by God means being exempt from bad, then Jesus was the least loved one ever.


Thank you.


- Josiah

Hi Josiah. I understand what your getting at and need to think about that myself as to meaning. I'll post more on this tonight bc it's a beautiful sunny day and I have things that need to get done also . Thanks

 

[Cassia]

I'm not sure what you mean by "in THAT sense."

IMO, justification DOES mean suffering - literally the Cross, the Blood of the Lamb... there is no forgiveness without the shedding of Blood, in justification, that's Jesus' blood (not our own).

I agree that justification does NOT mean only suffering (my life is a good testimony to that). WE don't NEED to suffer because we have the Savior. On the other hand, we are never promised a rose garden, we are never told that life as a Christian will be a pleasure cruise on the Good Ship Lollipop. What we are told is that there will be persecution, suffering (although obviously not PURELY so and EQUALLY so). If being loved by God means being exempt from bad, then Jesus was the least loved one ever.


Thank you.


- Josiah

I never look to see what denomination a book is from that I read on whatever particular subject that's being studied and sort from there. Somehow from somewhere I picked up the notion that justification equalled suffering and it became my new pet doctrine for the longest time. Then as time went on I just couldn't support it. But it was a hard one to let go of because it made sense on so many levels. All but that it was justification. And most if not all of my doctrine has to fit into the neat little boxes of sanctification, propitiation, regeneration, etc. Justification equalling suffering ultimately didn't fit altho it is THE example set forth by Christ of a Christian life. Justification is God's climatic act manward that can only be followed by glorification.

~ justification makes right before God, a covering for sin, the sin question is settled.

Romans 3:24-25
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

There's 7 aspects of justification

1) justified by God

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 8:33
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

2) justified by blood

Romans 3:24-26
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

3) faith as the instrument

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 5
Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

4) grace as the essence

Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

5) justified by the Spirit

(agent of a new birth)
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

6) works as evidence of justification

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

James 2:24-25
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

7) justified in Christ

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

(Position of one crucified)

 

[Josiah]

I never look to see what denomination a book is from that I read on whatever particular subject that's being studied and sort from there. Somehow from somewhere I picked up the notion that justification equalled suffering and it became my new pet doctrine for the longest time. Then as time went on I just couldn't support it. But it was a hard one to let go of because it made sense on so many levels. All but that it was justification. And most if not all of my doctrine has to fit into the neat little boxes of sanctification, propitiation, regeneration, etc. Justification equalling suffering ultimately didn't fit altho it is THE example set forth by Christ of a Christian life. Justification is God's climatic act manward that can only be followed by glorification.

~ justification makes right before God, a covering for sin, the sin question is settled.

Romans 3:24-25
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

There's 7 aspects of justification

1) justified by God

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Romans 8:33
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

2) justified by blood

Romans 3:24-26
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

3) faith as the instrument

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans 5
Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

4) grace as the essence

Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

5) justified by the Spirit

(agent of a new birth)
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

6) works as evidence of justification

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

James 2:24-25
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

7) justified in Christ

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

(Position of one crucified)

Thanks for that explanation.... I largely agree with you.

My point is that Justification DOES hinge on suffering - but it's CHRIST'S suffering, not ours.

That said, Scripture does imply that suffering will be a part of our life - not so that we might be justified but because we are; it's a part of our sanctification. How, I have to admit, so far it's largely been absent from my life (and I'm not sure what that means).



- Josiah

 

[Cassia]

Thanks for that explanation.... I largely agree with you.

My point is that Justification DOES hinge on suffering - but it's CHRIST'S suffering, not ours.

That said, Scripture does imply that suffering will be a part of our life - not so that we might be justified but because we are; it's a part of our sanctification. How, I have to admit, so far it's largely been absent from my life (and I'm not sure what that means).



- Josiah

Christ's suffering yes I agree. Without which sanctification couldn't even begin.

 

[Pedrito]

The question was asked, “Do believe enough?” (Maybe “Do you believe enough”?)

Pedrito is unsure.

Pedrito tends to be somewhat skeptical.

Especially when faced with inconsistency and imprecision.

Can anyone tell Pedrito what the pass mark is?

 

[TurtleHare]

The prosperity gospel teachers say Christians are entitled to earthly blessings and health and other things because being children of God they have "rights" as heirs with Christ ... some of the preachers are, apparently, entitled to private jets, mansion homes, and luxurious holidays in the snow or on the south Mediterranean coast of France.

Don't you think that the folks believing that garbage are selfish and want some excuse to remain selfish because hey, if God wanted them to have all that rich junk then no one is allowed to complain when they don't donate to the poor and help to take care of them. Yessir, why give to the poor because God will give to them if they're worthy according to their line of thinking and there it is in a nutshell their theology full of crap and denying love for neighbor but plenty of that love for self.

 

[tango]

While I agree that many will be poor I also wonder how you square Abraham and David and Solomon, seems like God blessed their socks off and I also think that if it is His will then it is for us, the key is hearing God and knowing is will in your life

The issue isn't that we have to explain specific individuals, the issue is that some preachers see those individuals and then expect God to act universally. The fact God did something in one situation doesn't mean God will do the exact same thing in every situation.

It's the kind of flawed logic that suggests the only options are "God always..." or "God never...", ignoring the possibility that perhaps "God sometimes...". There's really no point in seeing that God did something for some other person and then assuming God will therefore do the exact same thing for us - curiously nobody sees what God allowed Job to suffer and demands the same treatment.

 

[tango]

'Name it and claim it' doctrine of prosperity is just not true. God may bless a new believer with gifts of material things but I think that's not according to a mature way of looking at the gospels. The wealth of the patriarchs had huge responsibility to everyone within their gates. Job's wealth was stripped away till his righteousness could be replaced with Gods and Jesus suffered as an example 1 Peter 2:21

The real kicker here is that word in your second sentence, "may". God may bless a believer with material wealth but at the same time God may not bless with material wealth. God may bless with all sorts of other things, some of which may not look much like blessings to people watching. Sometimes people with great material wealth end up bound by possessions they have little time to enjoy because they are so busy working to fund them, and endlessly stressed because they are concerned that the material doodads may be taken away (by theft, taxation, devaluation, whatever). I've often looked at positively huge houses and felt the tinges of envy, but the simple truth is I don't need the space I have now let alone twice as much and frankly I wouldn't care to have to clean it or mow a lawn many times the size of what I now have.

 

[Lamb]

The real kicker here is that word in your second sentence, "may". God may bless a believer with material wealth but at the same time God may not bless with material wealth. God may bless with all sorts of other things, some of which may not look much like blessings to people watching. Sometimes people with great material wealth end up bound by possessions they have little time to enjoy because they are so busy working to fund them, and endlessly stressed because they are concerned that the material doodads may be taken away (by theft, taxation, devaluation, whatever). I've often looked at positively huge houses and felt the tinges of envy, but the simple truth is I don't need the space I have now let alone twice as much and frankly I wouldn't care to have to clean it or mow a lawn many times the size of what I now have.

Right. How rich were the disciples and they were close to Jesus!

 

[Pedrito]

Pedrito thinks the matter is quite simple.

(But will he be seen to be merely simplistic? Let’s see.)

==============================================================================================

1. God extends an offer to sinful individuals.

2. Some respond to that offer.

3. Of those people, God requires something – true dedication.

4. Their dedication has been described as building with gold, silver, or precious stones, or wood, or hay, or stubble. (1 Corinthians 3:12)

5. The “Prosperity Gospel” focusses people’s attention on themselves. (Wood, hay, stubble.)

6. For those building with gold, silver, or precious stones, the physical conditions in which they find themselves are arranged by God for His purposes; they are irrelevant to those people’s faith; as long as their focus does not vary.

==============================================================================================

Pedrito remembers an anecdote he heard many years ago, generally comparing two pastors – one in the USA and one in the UK.

Of the pastor in the USA it was said that unless he drove an expensive car, God was not blessing him, and therefore his ministry was suspect.

Of the pastor in the UK it was said that if he drove an expensive car, his attention was on worldly things, and his ministry was suspect.

==============================================================================================

“Do you believe enough?”

Is that even a pertinent question?

 

[Lamb]

1. God extends an offer to sinful individuals.

2. Some respond to that offer.

3. Of those people, God requires something – true dedication. (1 Corinthians 3:12)

4. Their dedication has been described as building with gold, silver, or precious stones, or wood, or hay, or stubble.

The verse you gave to back up your claim about "true dedication" doesn't state anything about "true dedication". Look at the verse above it for true meaning:
For no one can lay a foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.