Discrepancy between Esther 4:16 and 5:1?

[JustTheFacts]

FWIW,

When I find a 'discrepancy' in the Bible I don't look to find the fault lying within the Bible and what it is saying but in myself in that I don't understand it and need to work on my own understanding of what is being said instead.

Better to look for how it is true than ignoring it as a mistake.

I'm a fraud investigator who looks for the facts. When I find a contradiction in the Bible, the first place I look to resolve it is by studying the Bible--you should too. There is no other documentation that will provide evidence here besides the Bible.

I provided four pieces of evidence that led to my conclusion, and which one(s) are you objecting to? I see no motive nor evidence of fraud in those two verses you cited. You sound disappointed, and since you claim to be a Christian, I'm somewhat surprised and wondering about your motive for trying so hard to believe that it's a contradiction.

 

[Frankj]

I'm a fraud investigator who looks for the facts. When I find a contradiction in the Bible, the first place I look to resolve it is by studying the Bible--you should too. There is no other documentation that will provide evidence here besides the Bible.

I provided four pieces of evidence that led to my conclusion, and which one(s) are you objecting to? I see no motive nor evidence of fraud in those two verses you cited. You sound disappointed, and since you claim to be a Christian, I'm somewhat surprised and wondering about your motive for trying so hard to believe that it's a contradiction.

What do you think I am objecting to? And which two versus are you referring to?

As I said, this is how I approach things in question about the Bible, I look to see how it is true rather than just say it isn't.

You're welcome to do it any way you wish, but I find it a little offensive too suggest I may not be a Christian and just claim to be so, would you want the same standards of judgment applied to yourself as you apply to others? Because Jesus taught that is how it will be.

 

[JustTheFacts]

What do you think I am objecting to? And which two versus are you referring to?

As I said, this is how I approach things in question about the Bible, I look to see how it is true rather than just say it isn't.

You're welcome to do it any way you wish, but I find it a little offensive too suggest I may not be a Christian and just claim to be so, would you want the same standards of judgment applied to yourself as you apply to others? Because Jesus taught that is how it will be.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood and mixed up a few posting.

 

[Mercury]

Back to David allegedly killing Goliath twice as you believe, I have the following evidence to deal with:

1. The verses you cite do not stated that David killed Goliath twice. It may be suggested, but it is not stated.

Hi JTF. My responses might appear to come slowly as my posts are now being moderator approved so please bear with.

Your point 1 above clearly fails imo and denies what the Bible states in verse 50 and 51.

Verse 50 unequivocally states that David KILLED Goliath using a sling and stone.

Here it is again:

50 So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him.

It doesn't matter which Bible version you prefer, they all state that Goliath was killed by sling and stone.

You appear to deny that Goliath was killed in this verse

Therefore could you please explain to me and others here why you believe that verse is saying anything but that Goliath was killed by sling and stone.

 

[JustTheFacts]

Hi JTF. My responses might appear to come slowly as my posts are now being moderator approved so please bear with.

Your point 1 above clearly fails imo and denies what the Bible states in verse 50 and 51.

Verse 50 unequivocally states that David KILLED Goliath using a sling and stone.

Here it is again:

50 So David triumphed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone; without a sword in his hand he struck down the Philistine and killed him.

It doesn't matter which Bible version you prefer, they all state that Goliath was killed by sling and stone.

You appear to deny that Goliath was killed in this verse

Therefore could you please explain to me and others here why you believe that verse is saying anything but that Goliath was killed by sling and stone.

No problem. I'm going by what is documented. Regardless of what we think things may mean, there are no words anywhere in the Bible that state "David killed Goliath twice." With a verse stating David killed Goliath with a stone then the following verse stating David killed the same man with a sword, it's easy to assume that he killed him twice, but that is not what is stated.

I've found the word of God to be completely accurate and precise therefore if God allowed David to kill Goliath twice for some reason, I would find that written. It isn't written that way or found in the Bible. Had it happened, it would be such an important event that it surely would be documented and repeated elsewhere in the Bible. I'm not using the Bible to validate a contradiction, I'm using my knowledge and analysis of the Bible to claim my conclusion.

 

[Mercury]

With a verse stating David killed Goliath with a stone then the following verse stating David killed the same man with a sword, it's easy to assume that he killed him twice, but that is not what is stated.

Don't get me wrong JTF, I don't actually think it is possible to kill someone twice. What we are highlighting here is an anomaly in the text.
There's no debate (I hope) that the Bible first says Goliath was killed with sling and stone and then subsequently says Goliath was killed with a sword, and by the same person. That IS what the text states unequivocally.

Therefore we have to try and understand why it says this.

Either there is some reason for it which we can not fathom, or it's an error which has slipped thorugh the translations of all Bible verses.

Now we could invent all manner of fabrications to try and explain the anomaly but that would be adding to the text which we shouldn't do. The only exception being if we deem the text to be allegorical for some reason. Assuming it is not allegorical then how do we explain the anomaly we see there?

We both accept I think that you can not kill someone twice.

Therefore David could NOT have first killed Goliath with a sling and stone and then subsequently have killed him with a sword also.
So something is amiss.

What you have offered thus far is merely a statement of blind faith that you personally believe that scripture to be error free but you have not subsequently offered any rational explanation for the opposing verses. Can you offer one? Or is your position simply one of accepting that the Bible is flawless and you just don't understand what is going on with those two verses?

 

[JustTheFacts]

What you have offered thus far is merely a statement of blind faith that you personally believe that scripture to be error free but you have not subsequently offered any rational explanation for the opposing verses. Can you offer one? Or is your position simply one of accepting that the Bible is flawless and you just don't understand what is going on with those two verses?

Hello Mercury, I was with you all the way until the last portion of your response because it is in error. I do not conduct any of my investigations with blind faith. I have no preconceived conclusions or ideas where I will be led.; I keep pulling the string and follow where the evidence leads. I found the only existing and reliable evidence to understand Christian beliefs and search for the truth about Jesus exists in the in Bible.

My results prove that the word of God is without error and it is precise. Just like Jesus said, he breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples so they remembered all the details. Every word or God is precise, accurate, and meant to be understood--but the key word is "attributed." My investigation has also proved that every word in the Bible has to be evaluated to determine if it is the word of God. Corruption through theology and false teacher editing has affected the reliability of the word of God in the Bible.

Whenever there is corruption or fraud there is a motive for it and I found both in the Bible. These are the steps I use when considering any documentation including the Bible:

1. Read exactly what's written and keep reading it and focus on each word. Don't add anything to the written word or leave any words out.
2. Do not consider the interpretations of others because it will taint my independent review.
3. Check the various translations of confusing portions to help understand what God intended. God wants his people to understand his words.
4. Look for other scripture that will help explain what I am reading. Again, we are talking about God, so all word of God will support other words of God and it together they will make sense and validate the message.
5. If more than one author wrote about the event being evaluated, compare the accounts. They must be different points of view that will combine to tell the same story if they are eyewitnesses testimony. If they are not eyewitness testimony I don't consider it because it is second hand information and that makes it unreliable. However, on occasion second hand information may considered under unusual circumstances such as the account in Luke for the two men on the road that Jesus appeared to.
6. If there are contradictions, look for a motive to find corruption.
7. If I can't find corruption that can explain the anomaly or contradiction and I still don't understand what's written, I pray for guidance and keep searching for answers.

 

[Mercury]

That's all lovely JTF but it doesn't offer any explanation as to why the two Bible verses are problematic.

So is your position at this point simply one of you don't know why the two verses state opposing facts ?

 

[JustTheFacts]

That's all lovely JTF but it doesn't offer any explanation as to why the two Bible verses are problematic.

So is your position at this point simply one of you don't know why the two verses state opposing facts ?

Following my logical analysis process above, the sections DO NOT STATE that Daniel killed Goliath twice. There are a few translations that explicitly claim that Daniel killed Goliath with the stone, then ensured he was dead by cutting off his head with a sword. However, having only a few of the near hundred English translations state this indicates that the oldest documents that have been translated are accurately telling us that Daniel killed Goliath with a stone AND Daniel killed Goliath by cutting off his head with a sword. I found no other references to Goliath's death in the Bible therefore there is no other data that will help us understand the discrepancy. However, the lack of this event being repeated in the Bible indicates that no miracle happened that Goliath was killed twice and also that there is no motive of fraud associated with it.

The only motive I find for this to remain an unresolved issue is your motive for continuing to pursue a meaningless contradiction. Out of the many contradictions I've had to resolve in the New Testament, your obsession with one minute detail in a small section of the word of God in the Old Testament, stands out as unusual. There is no motive for those two verses to be fraud, but yet you will accept nothing that resolves the contradiction because you don't want it resolved. With unresolved contradictions you can justify your disbelief of the existence of the word of God in the Bible and the fact that the story of Jesus is the truth. The contradiction in those two verses are meaningless unless you need contradictions.

Now what is going to happen next is interesting. Will you keep beating this dead horse and grasping on to this meaningless contradiction as your lifeline to rejection, will you move on to more minutia, or will you open you mind and start looking for the facts? I'm betting you will write back and claim my analysis is BS and you will move on your merry way. That's what atheistic and agnostic people do.

 

[Mercury]

Following my logical analysis process above, the sections DO NOT STATE that Daniel killed Goliath twice.

There are a few translations that explicitly claim that Daniel killed Goliath with the stone, then ensured he was dead by cutting off his head with a sword.

You've just contradicted yourself. If Daniel KILLED Goliath with a sling and stone then he could not possibly KILL him with a sword for he would already be dead. You are attempting to add to the scripture by suggesting that it doesn't explicitly say "KILL" and instead you're choosing to assert off your own imagination that when the Bible says "KILLED" it doesn't mean "KILLED" it just means somehow injured or incapacitated or stunned or some other made-up machination. This is not what the Bible states unfortunately.

The Bible clearly states that David KILLED Goliath with a sling and stone. You either accept that this is the Word or you reject it. If you reject it then this whole discussion is pointless.
If you accept it then you HAVE TO CONCEDE that the following verse which states Daniel KILLED Goliath with a sword AND THEN cut his head off, must be an error of some kind.

You can not kill someone twice. The Bible is clearly not trying to tell us that Goliath was killed twice for that would be stupid. Therefore the Bible here contains an error of some sort.

I mean for me personally this is no big deal. The Bible was written and assembled by humans regardless of any divine inspiration and humans are fallible creatures so it should really not be any kind of surprise (or issue) that we find such an error in the text. Yet you seem to be having immense difficulty accepting it.

However, having only a few of the near hundred English translations state this indicates that the oldest documents that have been translated are accurately telling us that Daniel killed Goliath with a stone AND Daniel killed Goliath by cutting off his head with a sword.

So now you are appealing to specific Bible translation? Ok, ball's in your court then. Provide a source please to a number of Bible translations which DO NOT say that Goliath was killed with a sling and stone and then was killed by a sword. Over to you. Source links please.

I found no other references to Goliath's death in the Bible therefore there is no other data that will help us understand the discrepancy.

Well at last you concede that there is something wrong in the text. A "discrepancy". That's progress I suppose.

However, the lack of this event being repeated in the Bible indicates that no miracle happened that Goliath was killed twice and also that there is no motive of fraud associated with it.

Again this discussion is not aiming to prove that anyone was actually killed twice. You seem fixated on that issue. The aim is to prove that the Bible contains errors or if you prefer, discrepancies, contradictions, problems.

The only motive I find for this to remain an unresolved issue is your motive for continuing to pursue a meaningless contradiction. Out of the many contradictions I've had to resolve in the New Testament, your obsession with one minute detail in a small section of the word of God in the Old Testament, stands out as unusual.

Its not just "one minute detail" though. It was but one example given to refute your earlier claim that :
"word of God is perfect; that every apparent contradiction can be resolved through a thorough analysis."

There are hundreds of similar "discrepancies"

Despite all our discussion so far you have still not provided any real analysis or explanation for the discrepancy. You concede that the discrepancy exists, which is good, but you seem unable to take the rational and logical step and say that this means the Bible is not perfect.
And when we say "Bible" we can only talk about any of the vast number of translations that have been made. We don't any of us have access to the original written Word Of God do we?

A simple answer to this whole discrepancy, and hundreds of others, would just be to say that all the available translations are likely in error in some way and that the original written text would have been perfect but all the translators made errors. Could you entertain such an explanation?

There is no motive for those two verses to be fraud, but yet you will accept nothing that resolves the contradiction because you don't want it resolved.

I wouldn't be here debating the issue if I didn't want it resolved JTF. I'd love to see a proper explanation for the Bible contradiction here but I think it's 99.999999% likely that it's a simple error in all translations.

With unresolved contradictions you can justify your disbelief of the existence of the word of God in the Bible and the fact that the story of Jesus is the truth.

Well let's not jump the gun JTF. Let's take it one step at a time.

What we can justify, with "unresolved contradictions", errors, discrepancies, is that the Bibles most of us have access to are in fact fallible entities which may not have been accurately transcribed from the original texts. That doesn't mean the original texts were not perfect does it?

 

[JustTheFacts]

Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the disciples to ensure the remembered all the details they were to document. Jesus aLao stated that his his words will outlast the heaven and earth. This tells me the word of God has been documented and translated through the years perfectly without error. I believe this.

I also believe that God could have David kill Goliath twice, we don’t know the answer and I gave my thoughts but it will remain unresolve. You’ve yet to provide one New Testament contradiction.

 

[Frankj]

I think many of those things that seem to be a discrepancy in English in the modern day may well have made perfect sense in Hebrew to the people of the time they were written.

 

[JustTheFacts]

I think many of those things that seem to be a discrepancy in English in the modern day may well have made perfect sense in Hebrew to the people of the time they were written.

I don't agree. I think the word of God made sense then and it makes sense now. I challenge you to present one New Testament discrepancy that can't be explained through the word of God.

 

[Frankj]

I don't agree. I think the word of God made sense then and it makes sense now. I challenge you to present one New Testament discrepancy that can't be explained through the word of God.

In which language?

Japanese maybe, or Cantonese, or Swahili?

The English Bible is a foreign language translation of the original Biblical texts and should be looked at as such.

 

[JustTheFacts]

In which language?

Japanese maybe, or Cantonese, or Swahili?

The English Bible is a foreign language translation of the original Biblical texts and should be looked at as such.

It doesn't matter what translation. When Jesus made his comment about the Good News being spread to all nations and languages, he didn't say, "except don't consider the English version because it will be unreliable." In your opinion, is having reliable eyewitness statements of Jesus beyond the capability of God?

 

[Frankj]

It doesn't matter what translation. When Jesus made his comment about the Good News being spread to all nations and languages, he didn't say, "except don't consider the English version because it will be unreliable." In your opinion, is having reliable eyewitness statements of Jesus beyond the capability of God?

So who wrote the book of Esther, when, and how do we know he or she was an eyewitness to it as it happened?

That's what this thread is about judging from its headline.

 

[JustTheFacts]

So who wrote the book of Esther, when, and how do we know he or she was an eyewitness to it as it happened?

That's what this thread is about judging from its headline.

The thread did start with a question about Esther and I took a look at it and nobody objected to my reasoning. The thread quickly went to other ’contradictions’ and the rest is history. I could analyze it and try to determine the author but why? What is the importance of this author?

 

[Frankj]

The thread did start with a question about Esther and I took a look at it and nobody objected to my reasoning. The thread quickly went to other ’contradictions’ and the rest is history. I could analyze it and try to determine the author but why? What is the importance of this author?

What is the importance of any author? Do they all write in the same style of speaking?

In any event, unless we are on entirely different wavelengths and I'm misreading what your general view is, when some 'discrepancy' is noticed in the Bible you seem to look for the fault being in the Bible an I look for the fault being in my understanding of what it is saying.

Am I right about this?

 

[JustTheFacts]

What is the importance of any author? Do they all write in the same style of speaking?

In any event, unless we are on entirely different wavelengths and I'm misreading what your general view is, when some 'discrepancy' is noticed in the Bible you seem to look for the fault being in the Bible an I look for the fault being in my understanding of what it is saying.

Am I right about this?

Unfortunately for most of the Bible, ALL available documentation is in the Bible. Of course when I evaluate a documentation, I look for similar writing and qualities and compare to others. For example, if you closely examine 2 Peter you will find that it was written by someone other than Peter. In fact, I don't think Peter could write because through 1 Peter he noted that Silas authored the letter for him, and none of the Gospels are attributed to Peter. I also believe that God planned this in advance. Why would Jesus choose Peter and Andrew to be eyewitnesses when he knew they couldn't write? It only makes sense if those two men were the two witnesses prophesied in Revelation chapter eleven. That is why that prophecy made John sick, but at the same time was sweet tasting.

A New Testament contradiction will either be fraud or a translation error. I've yet to come across a translation issue as of yet but I have found several contradictions with a root cause attributed to fraud. Old Testament--I would expect the same, but I don't have the background to claim this for all of it. I found a few contradictions in Daniel--especially the one with Daniel 5:30 and King Darius taking over. I'd have to go back through my results, to see how I resolved that, but in the end it made sense.

 

[Frankj]

The New Testament is written in Koine Greek.

While Koine Greek was widely spoken at the time I find it unlikely that Jesus spoke it to the people of Israel so that makes the NT itself a foreign language translation of what was originally said.

Without the Holy Spirit, I doubt that anyone can actually understand the meaning of what is written in it beyond a simple recounting of the words spoken and events taking place when it was finally put into writing at a later date.