Did Christ die for them that are perishing ?

[Marston]

I don't know of any non-denominational church that has those same beliefs.

Did Jesus come to Earth to reconcile ALL THINGS back to God the Father?

Does Jesus say in Revelation 20 that he is making "ALL THINGS NEW"?

 

[BruceLeiter]

As a believer in universal reconciliation, I have a different belief. I believe that Jesus's sacrifice saves ALL from forever death.

Upon death most people (I believe) will be freed by Jesus from the bondage of sin and will then enter God's Kingdom. Those that put their faith and trust in Jesus and who faithfully follow him are ASSURED of going straight to Heaven!

However, wicked people go into the Lake of Fire, aka "Hell", for chastening, otherwise known as punishment but punishment for the purpose of correction. In that place, or process, the wicked will eventually be granted repentance by the Father and then they too will repent and cheerfully follow Jesus and then they too will enter God's Kingdom.

I can provide scriptures to support my beliefs.

So, you believe in Purgatory, @Marston? There is nothing in Scripture to support that belief. Respectfully, you seem to be reading meaning into the lake of fire that isn't really there because of your previous assumptions.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Did Jesus come to Earth to reconcile ALL THINGS back to God the Father?

Does Jesus say in Revelation 20 that he is making "ALL THINGS NEW"?

@Marston, I respect your beliefs, but it is Revelation 21, and the context is always crucial in interpreting any verse. Go to Revelation 21:1-6. The first verses tell you what things are new, the new earth, heavens, and Jerusalem, not every human:

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

In other words, God will create a new universe in which his new people ("Jerusalem," ALL Old and New Testament believers) will dwell.

 

[Marston]

So, you believe in Purgatory, @Marston?

No.

 

[Marston]

@Marston, I respect your beliefs, but it is Revelation 21, and the context is always crucial in interpreting any verse. Go to Revelation 21:1-6. The first verses tell you what things are new, the new earth, heavens, and Jerusalem, not every human:

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

In other words, God will create a new universe in which his new people ("Jerusalem," ALL Old and New Testament believers) will dwell.

Bruce, do you believe that our Heavenly Father, the only eternal being, the creator of all things, is capable of achieving his goals? In other words, do you believe that God gets what God wants?

 

[Marston]

Go to Revelation 21:1-6. The first verses tell you what things are new, the new earth, heavens, and Jerusalem, not every human:

Not only is every human made new but so are the fallen angels, demons, and Satan. After all, Satan is doing EXACTLY what God set forth for him to do, which is to torment/test us. At the culmination of the ages, Satan will be granted repentance and will gleefully follow Jesus!

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[brightfame52]

When He hath by Himself purged our sins sat down !2

Now who is the writer referring to here in Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Well the same word is used here but its purify Titus 2:14

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify G2511 unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

This is the Church, For Titus whom the book of Titus was written to Titus 1:1-4

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

So Titus 2:14 applies to him as a Gentile Titus 2:14

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The same word in Heb 1:3 as purge ! So who are the " Our sins" in Heb 1:3 ? Its the Church and also its Heb 2:16-17

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The Our sins is the Seed of Abraham, which is also the Church Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's,[Church] then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Remember Jesus is Heir in Heb 1:2-3

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

He purged the sins of the Heirs together with Him, His Church, The Seed of Abraham.

The Church is the Wife of the Husband Christ who is Heir. You know Peter wrote of the Christian Husband and Wife this 1 Pet 3:7

7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

Now all this was to show the connection of the Seed of Abraham and the Church as being the same People whom it refers to as Our Sins in Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Now this cannot be refuted, I dare anyone to even try without twisting scripture. ! 21

 

[brightfame52]

Not only is every human made new but so are the fallen angels, demons, and Satan. After all, Satan is doing EXACTLY what God set forth for him to do, which is to torment/test us. At the culmination of the ages, Satan will be granted repentance and will gleefully follow Jesus!

Philippians 2:10-11 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Then Christ in your opinion died in the place and stead of the devil and demons, fallen angels etc since repentance is a Salvation blessing Jesus purchased with His Blood. He must have washed away all the sins of the devil and his angels and demons, correct ?

 

[BruceLeiter]

Bruce, do you believe that our Heavenly Father, the only eternal being, the creator of all things, is capable of achieving his goals? In other words, do you believe that God gets what God wants?

Yes, and as the only true God of justice, he must punish sinful rebellion in his creation. For believers, he punished his own perfect Son in our place. Why? I don't know, because not one of us deserves it. Always remember that he is the perfect God of justice as the perfect Judge of unrepentant rebels and the God of mercy and grace as believers' Father.

 

[Marston]

Then Christ in your opinion died in the place and stead of the devil and demons, fallen angels etc since repentance is a Salvation blessing Jesus purchased with His Blood. He must have washed away all the sins of the devil and his angels and demons, correct ?

Did Jesus come to reconcile ALL THINGS back to God the Father?

Ephesians 1:7-10
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

 

[Marston]

Yes, and as the only true God of justice, he must punish sinful rebellion in his creation. For believers, he punished his own perfect Son in our place. Why? I don't know, because not one of us deserves it. Always remember that he is the perfect God of justice as the perfect Judge of unrepentant rebels and the God of mercy and grace as believers' Father.

Amen my brother. God tells us in Isaiah that he accomplishes all that he desires. God wants ALL beings to be reconciled back to him and he sent Jesus to do it. It WILL happen!

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 esv
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

 

[Marston]

Edit: accidental double-post

 

[Charlie24]

Amen my brother. God tells us in Isaiah that he accomplishes all that he desires. God wants ALL beings to be reconciled back to him and he sent Jesus to do it. It WILL happen!

1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 esv
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Isaiah 46:10
declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will.

With the element of free will, God doesn't always get His way. That's why all that choose not to believe will go to be with their father Satan in Hell.

The Scripture clearly places all whose name is not written in the Book of Life in the Lake of Fire.

The UR needs to show us where they get out! Of course you can't, but you keep saying it's true.

It's good intensions but it's not Biblical.

 

[Frankj]

Did Jesus come to reconcile ALL THINGS back to God the Father?

Ephesians 1:7-10
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Curious, what is your understanding of 'all things'.

 

[Marston]

Curious, what is your understanding of 'all things'.

Just what Paul wrote, my brother, all things on Earth and all things in Heaven.

10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

 

[Marston]

Edit: Sorry for another double-post.

 

[Marston]

What exists in Heaven that needs to be united in God? My GUESS is fallen angels.

 

[Marston]

With the element of free will, God doesn't always get His way.

God told us in Isaiah that he DOES "get his way". Please see the verses above.

We have limited free will. God doesn't force anybody to follow the Son, but he gives them the ability to repent and all the time needed for the lost to change their hearts and follow Jesus. That's essentially what Paul said. In 1 Corinthians 15:25 we see that Jesus is WAITING.

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet

Why is Jesus waiting? Jesus is waiting for the "lost sheep".

Matthew 18:12-14
12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[Charlie24]

God told us in Isaiah that he DOES "get his way". Please see the verses above.

We have limited free will. God doesn't force anybody to follow the Son, but he gives them the ability to repent and all the time needed for the lost to change their hearts and follow Jesus. That's essentially what Paul said. In 1 Corinthians 15:25 we see that Jesus is WAITING.

1 Corinthians 15:25
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet

Why is Jesus waiting? Jesus is waiting for the "lost sheep".

Matthew 18:12-14
12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? 13 And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. 14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Did God get His way when He told Adam not to eat of a certain tree that brought forth death?

Man has free will to choose his way, even from the very beginning.

 

[Marston]

Jesus's mission is to unite ALL THINGS back to the Father. Jesus said the "Gates of Hell" (most English translations) will NOT prevail! This means that nothing and nobody will prevent Jesus from successfully fulfilling his mission!

Matthew 16:18 CLNT
18 Now I, also, am saying to you that you are Peter, and on this rock will I be building My ecclesia, and the gates of the unseen shall not be prevailing against it.