Controversial: strange fire ... first presentation.

[MoreCoffee]

This is a very special period of time for us here at Grace Church, at least in our little family, because Patricia, my wife and I, are celebrating our fiftieth wedding anniversary and I at least want you to see the gift - the best gift that God gave me in life. Patricia, would you stand up and please turn around and let everybody see you?

Now, so I was trying to think of how do you celebrate 50 years of marriage and 4 kids? And they are all married, they’re all in our church. Fifteen grandkids are all in our church, and we’re baptizing our way through the ranks. I’m down about 7 deep into the kids. They range from 23 to 3, the grandkids, and how do you celebrate that?

So I came up with kind of an off-the-cuff thing, I said, “How about I give you 50 days for 50 years?” You know, that’s pretty meager when you think about it, 50 days for 50 years. So we’re sort of in the middle of that, and we came back for this conference, and then we’re going to go away, and I don’t know, we might do 60 days, come to think of it, because we’re having such a great time. But we’ll certainly be back in just a few weeks to settle back into the wonderful ministry here.

We’ve been grateful for the love of the church, and the love of our children and grandchildren. There was a note on my desk this morning from two of my granddaughters, who collectively wrote me a note and told me to “preach well today.” So, they’ll be praying for me. So of all the gifts that God can give you to have your family in Christ, and in your church, and in your ministry, in serving the Lord alongside is really an unequaled blessing from the Lord.

We’re addressing a subject in the conference this week, the subject of the contemporary charismatic movement, under the title of “Strange Fire.” And this has been a concern to me for many, many years, a concern for many, many decades. You can go all the way back to the very early years of my ministry, when I began ministry and saw the early beginnings of this movement and was deeply, deeply concerned. Through the years, I have addressed this from this pulpit. Forty years ago a series on the charismatic movement on the issues that were at hand in the movement, a book The Charismatics some years followed, another book Charismatic Chaos, more series, more attention given to that to try to help our people to exercise discernment.

When people ask me, “What’s the biggest problem in the church?” I always say the same thing: The absence of discernment. That is the biggest problem in the church because if you can’t discern the truth with the Word of God in your hand, with the Bible in your hand, if you can’t discern the truth, you can die of 1,000 heresies. It’s like having spiritual AIDS. People who have a deficient immune system can die of 1,000 illnesses. The church can die of 1,000 heresies if it can’t exercise discernment. This is always the issue.

And part of the responsibility of ministry is the positive side to instruct with great patience, as Paul said to Timothy. But the other side is to reprove, rebuke, and exhort, and use the Word of God to do that. And to exercise discernment is at the very heart of Christian living because Christian living is a reflection of Christian thinking, and Christian thinking must be attached to sound doctrine, and that’s where discernment begins.

It is very evident that a massive part of professing Christianity lacks discernment. And so the effort in this conference these days and with my dear friends who are going to be sharing in opening the Word of God to you and speaking to you is to help you to be discerning. We know there are people who are in this movement who are deceivers, and they know they’re deceivers. They’re false teachers, and they know they’re false teachers. They’re in it for the money, and they know they’re in it for the money. ... (from the transcript at Strange Fire)

I do not endorse John Macarthur's views but they do, in my opinion, offer some material for thought on the topic of the Charismatic movement and Pentecostalism as they exist today.

 

[psalms 91]

I think he points out discernment and that is for all denoms which has been my experience, that most do lack it, and it is pointed at all not just a denom

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think he points out discernment and that is for all denoms which has been my experience, that most do lack it, and it is pointed at all not just a denom

Yes, I think that is the gist of the first few minutes of his presentation. He's quite anti-catholicism too, so you're far from being alone in the targets he selects. But on the matter of discernment, how do you cope with the semi-crazy claims made by some folk who think they've had a word from God?

 

[Alithis]

its a huge topic among charismatic circles at present

years back it wa the "laughter thing .. discernment is very important .. but the foundation must be the word of God "first" for discernment to come .we cannot ever add tradition and expect to have discernment

this is an old .. but very balanced testimony and artlicle by Derick pricne on the laughter move from the late 80's eral;y 90's http://www.openheaven.com/library/articles/prince.htm

 

[MoreCoffee]

its a huge topic among charismatic circles at present

years back it wa the "laughter thing .. discernment is very important .. but the foundation must be the word of God "first" for discernment to come .we cannot ever add tradition and expect to have discernment

this is an old .. but very balanced testimony and artlicle by Derick pricne on the laughter move from the late 80's eral;y 90's http://www.openheaven.com/library/articles/prince.htm

I think the "balanced" response to "the laughter thing" is to say "what a lot of balderdash" and move on

 

[tango]

Yes, I think that is the gist of the first few minutes of his presentation. He's quite anti-catholicism too, so you're far from being alone in the targets he selects. But on the matter of discernment, how do you cope with the semi-crazy claims made by some folk who think they've had a word from God?

I may have mentioned this once or twice before but "test all things" comes to mind about now.

It's truly remarkable what garbage people will accept if it's dressed up in spiritual sounding language and someone claims that an angel woke them in the night to dictate a message or some such. A church I went to for a time was very much into The Elijah list that was full of that kind of stuff. One year one of the church members stood up with a bold proclamation that it was the Jewish year 5775 and a load of fluff about numerology and the year being significant because it meant a double portion of blessings. That was the year the pastor stopped drawing a salary because the church couldn't afford to pay him any more. It often seemed that nobody else could see the problem there (the magical year 5775 was also the year I stopped going because they had gotten just way too silly)

I don't see anything wrong with the idea that people today can have a word from God but to assume that just because someone says "Thus saith the Lord" that the following words actually came from God is naive in the extreme. I honestly believe that some of the high profile concepts presented as being prophetic are actually building the kingdom of the beast.

 

[tango]

I think the "balanced" response to "the laughter thing" is to say "what a lot of balderdash" and move on

The only time I encountered it was when I saw a video of Rodney Howard-Browne doing whatever it is he does. It disturbed me so badly I couldn't stand to be in the same room, so I left.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I may have mentioned this once or twice before but "test all things" comes to mind about now.

It's truly remarkable what garbage people will accept if it's dressed up in spiritual sounding language and someone claims that an angel woke them in the night to dictate a message or some such. A church I went to for a time was very much into The Elijah list that was full of that kind of stuff. One year one of the church members stood up with a bold proclamation that it was the Jewish year 5775 and a load of fluff about numerology and the year being significant because it meant a double portion of blessings. That was the year the pastor stopped drawing a salary because the church couldn't afford to pay him any more. It often seemed that nobody else could see the problem there (the magical year 5775 was also the year I stopped going because they had gotten just way too silly)

I don't see anything wrong with the idea that people today can have a word from God but to assume that just because someone says "Thus saith the Lord" that the following words actually came from God is naive in the extreme. I honestly believe that some of the high profile concepts presented as being prophetic are actually building the kingdom of the beast.

Many people say that the pope's alleged infallibility is too absurd to be accepted and that hence they are not Catholics because of it (and other things) yet people accept the idea of some chap saying "thus says the Lord ..." about some dyspeptic aural hallucination they've had or a word from some night time angelic vision they had. Seems to me that papal claims no matter how objectionable they may be to a chap are less absurd than the current crop of charismatic/pentecostal words from the Lord. Take, for example, this.

At the time of this prophetic commissioning Todd Bentley was considered quite a phenomenon of spiritual power but it didn't last long.

 

[Alithis]

Many people say that the pope's alleged infallibility is too absurd to be accepted and that hence they are not Catholics because of it (and other things) yet people accept the idea of some chap saying "thus says the Lord ..." about some dyspeptic aural hallucination they've had or a word from some night time angelic vision they had. Seems to me that papal claims no matter how objectionable they may be to a chap are less absurd than the current crop of charismatic/pentecostal words from the Lord. Take, for example, this.

At the time of this prophetic commissioning Todd Bentley was considered quite a phenomenon of spiritual power but it didn't last long.

The popes claims beong less absurd do not make them less a lie.
Nice try though.

 

[Alithis]

I think the "balanced" response to "the laughter thing" is to say "what a lot of balderdash" and move on

Right..so your saying you didnt read this link either. So its an uninformed presumptuous reply you gave.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Right..so your saying you didn't read this link either. So its an uninformed presumptuous reply you gave.

Are you offended when I reject the bad and stick with the good? Okay. I will not argue against your claim about me because I reckon I know what I did read better than you do. Anyway, the point I sought to present is that there are leaders in the Charismatic/pentecostal movement who are unquestionably false teachers presenting distorted and wicked messages as if they came from God. Here's an example ...

 

[MoreCoffee]

Many people say that the pope's alleged infallibility is too absurd to be accepted and that hence they are not Catholics because of it (and other things) yet people accept the idea of some chap saying "thus says the Lord ..." about some dyspeptic aural hallucination they've had or a word from some night time angelic vision they had. Seems to me that papal claims no matter how objectionable they may be to a chap are less absurd than the current crop of charismatic/pentecostal words from the Lord. Take, for example, this.

At the time of this prophetic commissioning Todd Bentley was considered quite a phenomenon of spiritual power but it didn't last long.

The popes claims being less absurd do not make them less a lie.
Nice try though.

You read my post with an interesting spin on what it says. My main interest is in what people teach and what claims they make for the sources of their teaching.

Here's another example

 

[tango]

Many people say that the pope's alleged infallibility is too absurd to be accepted and that hence they are not Catholics because of it (and other things) yet people accept the idea of some chap saying "thus says the Lord ..." about some dyspeptic aural hallucination they've had or a word from some night time angelic vision they had. Seems to me that papal claims no matter how objectionable they may be to a chap are less absurd than the current crop of charismatic/pentecostal words from the Lord. Take, for example, this.

(video cut for brevity)

You make a good point here. Personally I can't accept the infallibility of the Pope, although it's no less absurd to merely assume someone speaks directly from the throne room of heaven because they made a grand claim of being visited by an angel. I often think of the correct path like a lane at a bowling alley - too far one way and we hit the gutter, too far the other way and we still hit the gutter. Taking my verse about "test all things" in its full context we see "Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophecies, test all things, hold fast what is good" (1Th 5:19-21). If it were as simple as "prophecy is bad" then there would be nothing to test; if it were as simple as "anyone who says they speak for God does speak for God" there would be no need to test. Sadly among some of the more hypercharismatic churches "test" seems to mean little more than "the prophet says it's true, some other high profile figure says it's true, therefore it is true". For bonus points they misuse "by the mouths of two or three shall the matter be established" although don't seem to have an answer for the situation where two or three agree it's balderdash, thereby making it simultaneously true and false.

Looking at some sources that are perhaps best regarded as a long list of examples of what prophecy doesn't look like, it's remarkable how often Job 22:28 gets plucked out of context and presented as if we can merely declare a load of stuff and make it so. Perhaps God forgot what he had to say to Eliphaz the Temanite when he was instructing these profits prophets in what to say.

At the time of this prophetic commissioning Todd Bentley was considered quite a phenomenon of spiritual power but it didn't last long.

Yes, the assembled throng of self-proclaimed prophets didn't do too well at discerning what was coming where Todd Bentley was concerned. From what I recall (which is all a bit hazy now, since it was a while back) there were lots of grand-sounding apostolic decrees and spiritual outpourings remarkably soon before his ministry imploded.

 

[MoreCoffee]

(video cut for brevity)

You make a good point here. Personally I can't accept the infallibility of the Pope, although it's no less absurd to merely assume someone speaks directly from the throne room of heaven because they made a grand claim of being visited by an angel. I often think of the correct path like a lane at a bowling alley - too far one way and we hit the gutter, too far the other way and we still hit the gutter. Taking my verse about "test all things" in its full context we see "Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophecies, test all things, hold fast what is good" (1Th 5:19-21). If it were as simple as "prophecy is bad" then there would be nothing to test; if it were as simple as "anyone who says they speak for God does speak for God" there would be no need to test. Sadly among some of the more hypercharismatic churches "test" seems to mean little more than "the prophet says it's true, some other high profile figure says it's true, therefore it is true". For bonus points they misuse "by the mouths of two or three shall the matter be established" although don't seem to have an answer for the situation where two or three agree it's balderdash, thereby making it simultaneously true and false.

Looking at some sources that are perhaps best regarded as a long list of examples of what prophecy doesn't look like, it's remarkable how often Job 22:28 gets plucked out of context and presented as if we can merely declare a load of stuff and make it so. Perhaps God forgot what he had to say to Eliphaz the Temanite when he was instructing these profits prophets in what to say.



Yes, the assembled throng of self-proclaimed prophets didn't do too well at discerning what was coming where Todd Bentley was concerned. From what I recall (which is all a bit hazy now, since it was a while back) there were lots of grand-sounding apostolic decrees and spiritual outpourings remarkably soon before his ministry imploded.

The pope is not infallible. I am sure I have said so before. Some of the statements made by popes are infallible. That says nothing more than that they are true. Some of the statement of my local pastor are true too. One could say they were infallible, but that is not often said. The pope's infallible statements come to the fore when they end a debate or a dispute about doctrine and morals. When he speak the truth in other situations nobody seems to mind. However many charismatic/pentecostal leaders claim to receive revelations from God and to speak the words of the holy Spirit and they speak these new revelations to teach new doctrines or to change existing ones.

 

[Full O Beans]

Are you offended when I reject the bad and stick with the good? Okay. I will not argue against your claim about me because I reckon I know what I did read better than you do. Anyway, the point I sought to present is that there are leaders in the Charismatic/pentecostal movement who are unquestionably false teachers presenting distorted and wicked messages as if they came from God. Here's an example ...

There are bad leaders everywhere, and in the RCC. As Christians the onus is on us to make sure we are following God's lead and allowing HIM to provide us with His choice of leaders.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There are bad leaders everywhere...

Yes, there are, and as you observed some are in the Catholic Church.

 

[Alithis]

Are you offended when I reject the bad and stick with the good? Okay. I will not argue against your claim about me because I reckon I know what I did read better than you do. Anyway, the point I sought to present is that there are leaders in the Charismatic/pentecostal movement who are unquestionably false teachers presenting distorted and wicked messages as if they came from God. Here's an example ...

Lol..im not offended but if you read the testimony i linked to..just say so.
As for the rest..i dont disagree with you.
I dont support what is blatantly wrong in evangelica charismatic churches. If its plainly wrong..i say so. Unlike supporters of rome who refuse to repent of the wrongs and argue to support the wrong rather then be honest about it - dishonesty offends me.

 

[Alithis]

The pope is not infallible. I am sure I has said so before. Some of the statements made by popes are infallible. That says nothing more than that they are true. Some of the statement of my local pastor are true too. One could say they were infallible, but that is not often said. The pope's infallible statements come to the fore when they end a debate or a dispute about doctrine and morals. When he speak the truth in other situations nobody seems to mind. However many charismatic/pentecostal leaders claim to receive revelations from God and to speak the words of the holy Spirit and they speak these new revelations to teach new doctrines or to change existing ones.

You best just leave him out of the topic then..the very existence of his office has no biblical basis .

 

[MoreCoffee]

Returning to the topic of this thread - discernment - and the other ideas in John Macarthur's presentation ....

We also know there are people caught up in the movement who are deceived and may not know they are deceived. They are brands that need to be snatched from the burning, to borrow the words from Jude. There are leaders who need to be confronted and exposed, and there are unwitting leaders who need to be helped and encouraged and know the truth.

We want to be like the noble Bereans. We want to search the Scripture and see if these things are so, measuring everything against the Word of God, and that’s going to be the effort this week. And as I said a minute ago, you really are the chosen. You have a special seat for this event. This has never happened to my knowledge in the church in my lifetime, where people have come together to think about this issue.

How big is it? There are half a billion professed charismatics on the planet, half a billion. To put that in perspective, there are a billion Roman Catholics. To put that in further perspective, there are 14 million Mormons. Fourteen million Mormons, half a billion charismatics. It’s a massive issue.

I don’t think anybody would fault pastors for confronting Mormonism, and they should. False view of God, false view of Christ, false view of salvation. Why is it that we have been so reluctant to confront this massive movement that has captivated 500 million plus people?

So what we want to do in these days together, and to do it faithfully, and to do it lovingly, and to do it compassionately, but to do it in a very straightforward way, is to help you see the issues for what they are and be discerning. And you then become a force of folks who can help other people to see the light.

I want you to open your Bible to Leviticus chapter 10. It is in Leviticus 10 that we find the portion of Scripture which is the source for the title of the conference, “Strange Fire.” The highest duty and the highest privilege, the most essential behaviour, and the supreme responsibility for humanity is to worship God. Let me say that again because you may have been distracted in turning to your passage. The highest duty and privilege, the most essential behaviour, and the supreme responsibility for humanity is to worship God.

The Father seeks true worshippers. Believers in the gospel, in the Lord Jesus Christ, are those true worshippers. This is, then, our eternal duty, and privilege, and priority. In fact, any glimpse into heaven in the book of Revelation will reveal that all who are there, both saints and angels, are glorifying God, giving Him honour. The most serious activity anyone will ever do is worship. The most serious activity anyone will ever do is worship.

And not only in heaven, but even on earth. When you come together and you say it is for the purpose of worshipping God, you have just pronounced upon yourself an urgency, and a severity, and a seriousness in the very activity in which you engage. Nothing is more serious than worship. I'm afraid in our culture, worship has become frivolous, superficial, shallow, trivialized. (Strange Fire)

 

[tango]

The pope is not infallible. I am sure I has said so before. Some of the statements made by popes are infallible. That says nothing more than that they are true. Some of the statement of my local pastor are true too. One could say they were infallible, but that is not often said. The pope's infallible statements come to the fore when they end a debate or a dispute about doctrine and morals. When he speak the truth in other situations nobody seems to mind. However many charismatic/pentecostal leaders claim to receive revelations from God and to speak the words of the holy Spirit and they speak these new revelations to teach new doctrines or to change existing ones.

Correct me if I'm wrong here (it's entirely possible, not being a Catholic myself I don't imagine I know as much about the RCC as you do), but my understanding was that the Pope could speak ex cathedra in which case he was deemed to be infallible in the words he spoke.

There's a difference between someone saying things that are true (which we all do from time to time) and saying things that are considered to be infallible and therefore not open to question or discussion. If I tell you there's a telephone on my desk you might accept my words as being true or you might ask for a picture to prove it. When you see the picture you can accept that my words are true and that there is, in fact, a telephone on my desk. If I were to be regarded as infallible then there could be no question of whether there really was a phone on my desk.

I know what you mean about the charismatic leaders who claim to get special revelations from God. I've read a lot of the stuff on The Elijah List - when I first read it a friend had pointed me towards it and as I struggled more and more to find anything even remotely prophetic about it I did a bit of research into it and saw how so many of the so-called prophets were associated, and to be honest the more I read of it the more comical I found it. Were it not for the fact I personally know people who put a lot of credence in it I'd just write it off as a comedy site.

It is terrifying when people will accept new doctrines based on nothing more than one man's claim that God told him, especially since there are so many Biblical warnings about such things. But coupled with the soothing siren-song that "God won't let you be deceived" or "the power of God to protect you is stronger than the power of the devil to deceive you", people fall for it.