concupiscentia

[MoreCoffee]

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529) and at the Council of Trent (1546)

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil".Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men's personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John's expression, "the sin of the world".This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men's sins.

 

[MennoSota]

...and yet...you think you can merit a response from God for "good works."

 

[tango]

Some context might be useful. What are the numbers by each paragraph?

 

[Arsenios]

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529) and at the Council of Trent (1546)

Paul writes that it is Death that is the cause of sin...

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death (entered into the world) by (that) sin;
So also death passed into all men,
upon which (entry of death into all men) all have sinned:

Arsenios

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil".Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men's personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John's expression, "the sin of the world".This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men's sins.

 

[Andrew]

406 The Church's teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine's reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God's grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam's fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529) and at the Council of Trent (1546)

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil".Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social and morals.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men's personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John's expression, "the sin of the world".This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men's sins.

original sin equals total depravity?
you don't say

 

[MoreCoffee]

Some context might be useful. What are the numbers by each paragraph?

Paragraph numbers.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Paul writes that it is Death that is the cause of sin...

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death (entered into the world) by (that) sin;
So also death passed into all men,
upon which (entry of death into all men) all have sinned:

Arsenios

Romans 5:12 does not appear to say death causes sin.

Romans 5:12-21* Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:-- *13* for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law. *14* Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. *15* But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many. *16* And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification. *17* For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ. *18* So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. *19* For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. *20* And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly: *21* that, as sin reigned in death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Regarding verse 12 it is said:

Romans 5:12
12–21. The same subject, illustrated by the connexion of fallen man with Adam, and justified man with Christ
12. Wherefore, &c.] Here begins an important section, closing with the ch. In point of language, and of links of thought, it is occasionally difficult, and moreover deals with the deep mystery of the effects of the Fall. We preface detailed comments with a few general remarks.

1. The section closes one main part of the argument—that on the Way of Justification; and it leads to another—that on its Results. It is connected more with the former than with the latter.
2. Its main purpose is unmistakable. It brings out the grandeur and completeness of Christ’s work by contrast with the work (so to speak) of Adam. It regards the two as, in some real sense, paralleled and balanced.
3. Without explaining (what cannot be explained, perhaps, in this life,) the reason of the thing, it states as a fact concerning the Fall that its result is not only inherited sinfulness, but inherited guilt; i.e. liability to punishment, (that of death,) on account of the primeval Sin. Death (in human beings) is penalty: but e.g. infants, void of actual moral wrong, die: therefore they die for inherited (we may say for vicarious) guilt.
4. From this admitted mystery and fact (as plainly it was with the Romans) St Paul argues to the corresponding “life” of believers in virtue of the vicarious righteousness of Messiah, whom here (and in 1Co_15:22; 1Co_15:45; 1Co_15:47,) he regards as the Second Adam.
5. Unquestionably the mystery of the Effects of the Fall is extremely great and painful. But it is the mystery of facts; and it is but one of the offshoots of the greatest and deepest of all distressing mysteries, the Existence of Sin.—See further, Appendix D.
​

Wherefore, as, &c.] There is no expressed close to this sentence. But a close may be taken as implied in this first clause: q. d., “Wherefore [the case of Justification is] just parallel to the entrance of sin by one man, &c.” Rom_5:12 will then be a complete statement.
by one man] Cp. 1Co_15:21-22; 1Co_15:45-49.
sin … death] See Rom_5:17-18 for the implied antithesis: Christ, righteousness, life.
death by sin] In the case of Man. Scripture nowhere says that death in animals is due to human sin. Death was the specially threatened penalty to the sole race which was on the one hand created with an animal organism, which could die, and on the other, “made in the image of God.” The penal character of death is essential to St Paul’s argument.
passed] Lit. went through, traversed, penetrated.
upon] Better, unto; so as to reach all men. “Men” is expressed here in the Gr., marking the special reference to human beings.
for that all have sinned] Better, for that all sinned; the aorist. St Paul refers to the First Sin, to the guilt of the Representative of the race. A close parallel, in contrast, is 2Co_5:15, where lit. “since One died for all, therefore they all died;” i.e. ideally, in their Divine Representative. See too 1Co_15:21, where our death in Adam is spoken of just as our sin in Adam here.
​

(Cambridge commentary on the bible)

 

[Lamb]

Some context might be useful. What are the numbers by each paragraph?

He copied and pasted from his church's catechism http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

 

[MoreCoffee]

He copied and pasted from his church's catechism http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

That is what I did, except I used a different source. My source is a bot I wrote some years back that runs on several IRC networks. It serves bible texts and the CCC as well as the Catechism of the Council of Trent. I think I also added the Quran and the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures from Jehovah's witnesses. I did once have the Gospel of Thomas in it and the Book of Mormon, but nobody used those so I removed them due to lack of interest. The bot serves 6 channels in Undernet, 3 in Dalnet, 5 in Efnet, and it used to serve three in Starlink-IRC but I think that IRC network closed. I give away the source code for the bot to anybody who asks for it, as long as they are not some crazed lunatic seeking to flood every channel with mountains of bible quotes - several people on IRC have done that sort of thing in the past and it is very unpopular with the human beings using the networks so for the sake of peace and quite as well as the mental health of IRC people I vet the people asking before I give the source to them.

 

[Arsenios]

Romans 5:12 does not appear to say death causes sin.

It says exactly that - That we inherit death, not sin nor the guilt of sin, but death itself, "UPON WHICH all have sinned..." EPH'W = EPI HW = UPON WHICH...

This commentary obfuscates the very plain meaning of the text by torturing the grammar...

Now you can argue that not all have sinned, and therein read the text as stating "...upon which ALL (who actually did sin) have sinned..." Leaving room for the Blessed Virgin and perhaps some others for not sinning, but even here there is no need, because as Paul goes on to say, and you quote his very words, [13] "Death reigned..." even in the absence of the likeness of Adam's transgression/sin... And later this is very crisply affirmed - That death ruled, not sin, and that sin is contained within death: [17]by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one;

Man - Adam - Was envenomated with the poison of DEATH, not sin... It was THROUGH this death which ruled over man even when he had not sinned - For it was disobedience that accounted Adam's transgression as sin - that all men came to committing sins... And apart from the Law of God through Moses, no sin is accounted - not to the Nations... Yet death ruled in these Nations, but not sin as disobedience to God...

3. Without explaining (what cannot be explained, perhaps, in this life,) the reason of the thing,
it states as a fact concerning the Fall
that its result is not only inherited sinfulness, but inherited guilt;
i.e. liability to punishment, (that of death,) on account of the primeval Sin.
Death (in human beings) is penalty:
but e.g. infants, void of actual moral wrong, die:
therefore they die for inherited
(we may say for vicarious) guilt.

The above is but assertion without Biblical warrant,
Is utterly false and even pretentious...
and relies on philosophical reasoning rather that Biblical explication...
The Serpent envenomated us in Adam unto Death...
We are Baptized into into Christ unto Life...
Adam's sin alone permitted this envenomation...

Death rules this fallen world even in the absence of sin...
For sin is disobedience to God's Commandments...
The Nations had not God...
Did not have God's Commandments...
And thus did no sin in their evil ways...


Arsenios

 

[JRT]

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a real world where there was real good and evil.
What we are is a people that is still evolving and that evolution has profoundly affected not just our bodies but our psyches as well. The world in which we evolved was a difficult and dagerous one and mere survival was of the highest priority. Selfishness became a part of who we are as a survival mechanism. This selfish instinct is no longer as necessary as in our savage past but it is still powerful. If there is an "Original Sin", this is it. Of course it is not a sin really but an innate part of our nature and it can be overcome.
In the words of John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."

 

[Arsenios]

Why the expulsion from Eden?

To prevent immortalizing Death by Adam eating of the Tree of Life after his Fall...

It was an act of Divine Mercy...


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Why the expulsion from Eden? In the mythology, I believe it to be symbolic that mankind was no longer a naïve creature living in moral ignorance but had become real men and women living in a real world where there was real good and evil.
What we are is a people that is still evolving and that evolution has profoundly affected not just our bodies but our psyches as well. The world in which we evolved was a difficult and dagerous one and mere survival was of the highest priority. Selfishness became a part of who we are as a survival mechanism. This selfish instinct is no longer as necessary as in our savage past but it is still powerful. If there is an "Original Sin", this is it. Of course it is not a sin really but an innate part of our nature and it can be overcome.
In the words of John Spong: "Every living thing, plant and animal is programmed to survive. What is true of all these living things is also true of human life. The only difference is that we human beings are self-conscious, while plants and animals are not. If survival is our highest goal, self-centeredness is inevitable and thus this quality becomes a constant part of the human experience. Traditionally, the church has called this "original sin" and has explained it with the myth of the fall. That was simply wrong. Survival is a quality found in life itself. There was no fall. Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are. There is thus no such thing as "original sin" from which we need to be rescued by a divine invader. So much of traditional Christianity assumes this false premise."

I find it telling you call it a mythology. Do you consider God to be mythical as well?

 

[Arsenios]

Selfishness... is... an innate part of our nature and it can be overcome.

Self-centered, survival driven, self-conscious creatures is simply who we are.

Calvinists agree with you...

I do not...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

It says exactly that - That we inherit death, not sin nor the guilt of sin, but death itself, "UPON WHICH all have sinned..." EPH'W = EPI HW = UPON WHICH...

This commentary obfuscates the very plain meaning of the text by torturing the grammar...

Now you can argue that not all have sinned, and therein read the text as stating "...upon which ALL (who actually did sin) have sinned..." Leaving room for the Blessed Virgin and perhaps some others for not sinning, but even here there is no need, because as Paul goes on to say, and you quote his very words, [13] "Death reigned..." even in the absence of the likeness of Adam's transgression/sin... And later this is very crisply affirmed - That death ruled, not sin, and that sin is contained within death: [17]by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one;

Man - Adam - Was envenomated with the poison of DEATH, not sin... It was THROUGH this death which ruled over man even when he had not sinned - For it was disobedience that accounted Adam's transgression as sin - that all men came to committing sins... And apart from the Law of God through Moses, no sin is accounted - not to the Nations... Yet death ruled in these Nations, but not sin as disobedience to God...



The above is but assertion without Biblical warrant,
Is utterly false and even pretentious...
and relies on philosophical reasoning rather that Biblical explication...
The Serpent envenomated us in Adam unto Death...
We are Baptized into into Christ unto Life...
Adam's sin alone permitted this envenomation...

Death rules this fallen world even in the absence of sin...
For sin is disobedience to God's Commandments...
The Nations had not God...
Did not have God's Commandments...
And thus did no sin in their evil ways...


Arsenios

In Greek the passage says

Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι᾿ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν, ἐφ᾿ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον· -*​

In Latin is says

propterea sicut per unum hominem in hunc mundum peccatum intravit et per peccatum mors et ita in omnes homines mors pertransiit in quo omnes peccaverunt​

In English it says

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into this world, and through sin, death; so also death was transferred to all men, to all who have sinned.​

The NASB, popular among some evangelical Protestants, says

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--​

There really is no link between death as causative of sin. It's the opposite sin is the cause of the spread of death to all human beings.

 

[JRT]

I find it telling you call it a mythology. Do you consider God to be mythical as well?

There is a great deal of symbolic language in both Jewish and Christian scripture. I believe that much of our understanding of God can only be described as mythological.

 

[MennoSota]

There is a great deal of symbolic language in both Jewish and Christian scripture. I believe that much of our understanding of God can only be described as mythological.

You believe wrong and you speak like a secular person.

 

[Andrew]

There is a great deal of symbolic language in both Jewish and Christian scripture. I believe that much of our understanding of God can only be described as mythological.

Great. So I can be atheist again? Considering God to be 'a god' in the pantheon of mythos?

 

[Arsenios]

In Greek the passage says

Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι᾿ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν, ἐφ᾿ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον· -*​

In Latin is says

propterea sicut per unum hominem in hunc mundum peccatum intravit et per peccatum mors et ita in omnes homines mors pertransiit in quo omnes peccaverunt​

In English it says

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into this world, and through sin, death; so also death was transferred to all men, to all who have sinned.​

The NASB, popular among some evangelical Protestants, says

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--​

There really is no link between death as causative of sin. It's the opposite sin is the cause of the spread of death to all human beings.

There really is that link built into the grammar of both Latin and Greek:

Greek: ἐφ᾿ ᾧ = EPI + hW = upon which (which = death)

"And in this manner did death enter into all men, upon which all have sinned..."

Latin: in quo = in which (which = death)

Find an old fashioned Latin Priest and ask him about in quo...

Exegesis is grammatical, and forms the basis of opinions of textual meanings...

The Greek "upon which" is livelier, implying that death is the base upon which sin erupts...

The Latin "in which" is more static and carries the idea of the enclosure of sin in death...

Both dis-affirm your understanding...

You want "upon which" to mean "because"...

In Greek that would be OTI...


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

There is a great deal of symbolic language in both Jewish and Christian scripture.
I believe that much of our understanding of God can only be described as mythological.

This would seem to imply that you have not had an encounter with God yet?


Arsenios