Christians taking communion in other churches

[Lamb]

I was taught that in baptism, faith doesn't make it a baptism, God makes it a baptism, but in the Lord's Supper, it's not a sacrament if faith doesn't believe in the Real Presence...it's merely a meal of remembrance. Is that what you believe too?

 

[Stravinsk]

Hey ya'll...don't want to butt in too deeply to the deep theological and hospitality considerations you are discussing, but I think I can solve this problem very easily.

Who betrayed Messiah at the last supper?
Wasn't this guy also a known thief?
Wasn't he also the one that Messiah said didn't believe?

And most importantly:
Who offered him communion with his very own hand?

Shame on the churches, I say.

 

[Lamb]

One of the Gospels suggests he didn't partake in "communion" but left before it happened.

 

[Stravinsk]

One of the Gospels suggests he didn't partake in "communion" but left before it happened.

He was offered it by the very hand of Messiah according to John, and predicts it at the same event in Matthew. Unless Messiah was mistaken or lying, then by both accounts Judas Iscariot was offered and took the bread and wine.

By the very example of Yeshua - no one should be refused.

Will the churches listen? Probably not.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I was taught that in baptism, faith doesn't make it a baptism, God makes it a baptism, but in the Lord's Supper, it's not a sacrament if faith doesn't believe in the Real Presence...it's merely a meal of remembrance. Is that what you believe too?

It is not what I believe. The holy Eucharist is holy if I were an atheist or a Buddhist monk because it is objectively holy and that is why saint Paul warns about unworthy partaking. You see, if it were faith that made it holy then an atheist could partake without any danger to him/her self. It would be bread and wine and no more. But if it is objectively holy then an atheist is still partaking in the body and blood of the Lord and so he/she eats and drinks condemnation to him/her self because he/she did not believe in the Lord when he was presented to him/her.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hey ya'll...don't want to butt in too deeply to the deep theological and hospitality considerations you are discussing, but I think I can solve this problem very easily.

Who betrayed Messiah at the last supper?
Wasn't this guy also a known thief?
Wasn't he also the one that Messiah said didn't believe?

And most importantly:
Who offered him communion with his very own hand?

Shame on the churches, I say.

Judas died a short time after the Lord's last supper. If he did partake then he ate and drank condemnation to himself. It ended very poorly for him.

 

[Stravinsk]

Judas died a short time after the Lord's last supper. If he did partake then he ate and drank condemnation to himself. It ended very poorly for him.

Bit more to the story than that. Judas did a number of things after the last supper, and after the betrayal, including returning the money in guilt.

But that's not really the point. Every single church that denies communion to anyone is in direct disobedience to the clear example of Yeshua, who offered it to all the disciples, even the thief and unbeliever who He knew would betray Him.

If a church believes it's petty doctrine is better than Messiah's example, guess that says a few things about it's true values, though.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Bit more to the story than that. Judas did a number of things after the last supper, and after the betrayal, including returning the money in guilt.

But that's not really the point. Every single church that denies communion to anyone is in direct disobedience to the clear example of Yeshua, who offered it to all the disciples, even the thief and unbeliever who He knew would betray Him.

If a church believes it's petty doctrine is better than Messiah's example, guess that says a few things about it's true values, though.

You're basing these strong declarations on speculation that Judas did in fact receive communion from the Lord. That is not proven. It is in fact rather doubtful.

 

[TurtleHare]

Bit more to the story than that. Judas did a number of things after the last supper, and after the betrayal, including returning the money in guilt.

But that's not really the point. Every single church that denies communion to anyone is in direct disobedience to the clear example of Yeshua, who offered it to all the disciples, even the thief and unbeliever who He knew would betray Him.

If a church believes it's petty doctrine is better than Messiah's example, guess that says a few things about it's true values, though.

IF Jesus communed Judas (and I"m not convinced he remained for the consecration) then Jesus is showing that we go by what people confess with their mouths even though we cannot know what's in their hearts such as Judas who ate unworthily and we know what happened to him, don't we?

 

[Stravinsk]

You're basing these strong declarations on speculation that Judas did in fact receive communion from the Lord. That is not proven. It is in fact rather doubtful.

Are Matthew, John and even Mark "speculating" when they declare that Messiah Himself did not deny Judas Iscariot communion, and according to John, in full knowledge of Iscariot's heart and intentions, knowingly offer it too him with His own hand?

That is the point at issue, and it is very simple.

All churches who deny communion are not acting in accordance with the example of Yeshua. If they are denying communion to anyone, they are in disobedience, based on His own example.

If a man or woman uses the communion ritual in a way that is disrespectful or ignorant of Messiah, then warn them, as Yeshua warned Judas. But do not deny them. Not even "for their own good". This places the burden of judgement on men, not on God, which is where it rightfully rests - and any man who ursurps the example of Messiah or teaches others to do so on this matter is acting in accordance with anti-Christ.

 

[Stravinsk]

IF Jesus communed Judas (and I"m not convinced he remained for the consecration) then Jesus is showing that we go by what people confess with their mouths even though we cannot know what's in their hearts such as Judas who ate unworthily and we know what happened to him, don't we?

Messiah offered communion to Judas Iscariot with His own hand, in full knowledge of who Judas was, how he doubted and that he was a thief.

If any denomination denies communion to anyone based on their own judgements of that person, they have replaced Messiah's example and put themselves in the position of God. That makes them, by definition, anti-Christ. It is the replacement of Christ's clear example with their own judgement, setting themselves up as God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Are Matthew, John and even Mark "speculating" when they declare that Messiah Himself did not deny Judas Iscariot communion, and according to John, in full knowledge of Iscariot's heart and intentions, knowingly offer it too him with His own hand?

That is the point at issue, and it is very simple.

All churches who deny communion are not acting in accordance with the example of Yeshua. If they are denying communion to anyone, they are in disobedience, based on His own example.

If a man or woman uses the communion ritual in a way that is disrespectful or ignorant of Messiah, then warn them, as Yeshua warned Judas. But do not deny them. Not even "for their own good". This places the burden of judgement on men, not on God, which is where it rightfully rests - and any man who ursurps the example of Messiah or teaches others to do so on this matter is acting in accordance with anti-Christ.

The gospel according to saint John does not include a last supper story and neither Matthew nor Mark say that Judas received holy communion, do they? And don't you yourself reject Mark's gospel as non-canonical?

 

[Stravinsk]

The gospel according to saint John does not include a last supper story and neither Matthew nor Mark say that Judas received holy communion, do they? And don't you yourself reject Mark's gospel as non-canonical?

Maybe you should try reading it sometime. John Chapter 13. Compare to Last Supper story in Matthew.

Yeshua offered Judas Iscariot the bread Himself.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Maybe you should try reading it sometime. John Chapter 13. Compare to Last Supper story in Matthew.

Yeshua offered Judas Iscariot the bread Himself.

Okay, here's John chapter thirteen. Where's the part about the bread being the body of Christ and the wine his blood?

Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God, rose from supper. He laid aside his outer garments, and taking a towel, tied it around his waist. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, do you wash my feet?"

Jesus answered him, "What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand."

Peter said to him, "You shall never wash my feet."

Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no share with me."

Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!"

Jesus said to him, "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you." For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, "Not all of you are clean."

When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, "Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.

I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me."

After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, "Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me."

The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus' side, so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking.

So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, "Lord, who is it?"

Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it." So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do quickly." Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, "Buy what we need for the feast," or that he should give something to the poor.

So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.

When he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, 'Where I am going you cannot come.' A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, where are you going?"

Jesus answered him, "Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward."

Peter said to him, "Lord, why can I not follow you now? I will lay down my life for you."

Jesus answered, "Will you lay down your life for me? Truly, truly, I say to you, the rooster will not crow till you have denied me three times.
(John 13:1-38 ESV)
​

 

[Stravinsk]

Okay, here's John chapter thirteen. Where's the part about the bread being the body of Christ and the wine his blood?

Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end.

During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God, rose from supper. He laid aside his outer garments, and taking a towel, tied it around his waist. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, do you wash my feet?"

Jesus answered him, "What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand."

Peter said to him, "You shall never wash my feet."

Jesus answered him, "If I do not wash you, you have no share with me."

Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!"

Jesus said to him, "The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you." For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, "Not all of you are clean."

When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, "Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.

I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.' I am telling you this now, before it takes place, that when it does take place you may believe that I am he. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me."

After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, "Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me."

The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus' side, so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking.

So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, "Lord, who is it?"

Jesus answered, "It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it." So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, "What you are going to do, do quickly." Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, "Buy what we need for the feast," or that he should give something to the poor.

So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.

When he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, 'Where I am going you cannot come.' A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Simon Peter said to him, "Lord, where are you going?"

Jesus answered him, "Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward."

Peter said to him, "Lord, why can I not follow you now? I will lay down my life for you."

Jesus answered, "Will you lay down your life for me? Truly, truly, I say to you, the rooster will not crow till you have denied me three times.
(John 13:1-38 ESV)
​

It's the last supper. Read the very first line that I have underlined and made bold.

I feel sorry for you. And I say that with no mockery or ill will. I feel sorry for you because your church's doctrine makes you twist, omit, ignore the very Scriptures you laud in order to get them to fit that doctrine. It must be confusing and tough on your brain, your reasoning and even basic common sense.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's the last supper. Read the very first line that I have underlined and made bold.

I feel sorry for you. And I say that with no mockery or ill will. I feel sorry for you because your church's doctrine makes you twist, omit, ignore the very Scriptures you laud in order to get them to fit that doctrine. It must be confusing and tough on your brain, your reasoning and even basic common sense.

Yes, so you assert yet the core dialogue of the last supper is not there. Not a word about the body & blood of Christ nor a word about the new covenant. Your assertion is not that "this is the last supper" but that it is about holy communion and Judas partaking of it and that is not stated in the passage so your claim is incorrect and unfounded.

 

[Stravinsk]

Yes, so you assert yet the core dialogue of the last supper is not there. Not a word about the body & blood of Christ nor a word about the new covenant. Your assertion is not that "this is the last supper" but that it is about holy communion and Judas partaking of it and that is not stated in the passage so your claim is incorrect and unfounded.

Again, I feel sorry for you.

It is the last supper. The same one where, in Matthew, Christ breaks the bread and says "This is my body" and pours the wine and says "this is my blood". The same one where Judas is handed the communion by Christ's own hand.

Gotta be tough, holding this position of yours.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay, you stick with your story. It's in error but you seem determined to stick with it. I suppose it fits the other elements in your stated theology such as rejecting the canonical authority of much of the new testament.

 

[Stravinsk]

Okay, you stick with your story. It's in error but you seem determined to stick with it. I suppose it fits the other elements in your stated theology such as rejecting the canonical authority of much of the new testament.

Oh no, not my story. The story as recorded by Matthew and John (and in this particular case, Mark).

Not me who's calling Yeshua's 2 hand picked disciples "in error".

 

[Lamb]

It's the last supper. Read the very first line that I have underlined and made bold.

I feel sorry for you. And I say that with no mockery or ill will. I feel sorry for you because your church's doctrine makes you twist, omit, ignore the very Scriptures you laud in order to get them to fit that doctrine. It must be confusing and tough on your brain, your reasoning and even basic common sense.

The verba isn't there though and that's what makes it Holy Communion. This is why it is suspect and cannot be confirmed as you think. That part of scripture is talking about the Passover meal. Speaking of which, no uncircumcised male could participate in the Passover. Something to consider.