Charcoal - Stravinsk, is about to die...

[Stravinsk]

So, here's the deal.

Because of electricity and gas prices, it takes a small fortune to heat during winter. I have recently taken to burning charcoal. I have been doing this for 1 month. Daily. During the day in one room with an open window, and during the night in a bedroom with a door slightly open for ventilation. I start the charcoal in a pot under a stove, with an open window, until it is red hot, then I add it to another metal container. I add more on top every few hours or so, so I do not need to heat more using other methods.

Again, the areas I heat are open. 1 to the outside through an open window, and the other to a much larger indoor space.

Recently I see a few different news articles of people who supposedly suffered Carbon Monoxide (CO) poisoning doing this and had to go to hospital. In one report, a child laughingly says the rescuers were fainting coming into contact with CO for just a few minutes! In one of the instances, they only brought the (already hot) charcoal into the home for 1 hour, then back out again.

I'm wondering, if this is all true, how I've stayed alive a full month? How have I not died? How have I not suffered just 1 tension headache (apparently the most common early symptom)?

Part of me thinks that the scare hype is overblown, and designed to keep people shelling out lots of $$ in electricity and gas. Part of me thinks that there is an element of truth to the danger, but my personal experience has shown me that I've gone a full month without experiencing any serious symptoms, much less falling over dead.

CO or Carbon Monoxide is caused by the *incomplete* burning of carbon, either through insufficient heat, or insufficient oxygen. Obviously, sealing off a room will in a measurable time deplete oxygen when there is a source sucking it up. Providing incomplete heat to the charcoal (for example, by not stacking it close to ensure all are heated) will do the same. Otherwise, sufficient oxygen and heat produce carbon dioxide (CO2) which is non toxic.

Am I being foolish? Is it just blind luck that I've not needed to visit a hospital in 1 month of doing this? I should mention here, I also smoke tobacco, which should make it even worse.

 

[Lamb]

Since you have an open window, you're smart to protect yourself.

Not that my daughter was using charcoal, but in my daughter's former apartment, when she would use her oven, the carbon monoxide detectors would go off. It was an OLD oven. The firemen came and said she needed to crack a window when using the oven, even when it's freezing cold outside. Her landlord refused to purchase a new oven. I'm glad she's not in that apartment anymore.

 

[tango]

Hard to know if you're just doing something right or if you're lucky.

For what it's worth my old house (now rented) has natural gas powered central heating and has had for at least the last 50 years. Even when the property has a professionally installed high efficiency boiler and is powered by gas provided by pipes by a regulated energy company the whole issue with carbon monoxide is still there. As the landlord I have to have the system professionally tested for gas safety every year.

When I lived there I bought a carbon monoxide detector and the highest I ever saw it read in regular use was 0.

Badly maintained gas boilers can produce carbon monoxide. I think that usually happens when there's a buildup of carbon deposits inside the burners, which shift the balance between carbon and oxygen. It was never an issue for me because I keep the heat levels much lower than most people, so the boiler isn't working hard all the time.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Am I being foolish? Is it just blind luck that I've not needed to visit a hospital in 1 month of doing this?

Yes to both questions. Please exercise more wisdom and don't engage in dangerous activities.

 

[atpollard]

Walmart lists a Carbon Monoxide detector for less than $11 (US).
Might be worth buying an inexpensive CO Detector somewhere and never having to wonder any more.

PS.: Cities and fire departments often offer free carbon monoxide detectors to people who meet eligibility requirements.

 

[Stravinsk]

Yes to both questions. Please exercise more wisdom and don't engage in dangerous activities.

People have been using fire to heat their homes for thousands of years. At some point, if burning a carbon based source (such as wood), the coal, or charcoal is left. Whether burning wood or charcoal, two things are needed - oxygen and heat. If those two requirements are met, the result is CO2, not CO. Since oxygen is used in the combustion process, lack of it will cause incomplete combustion resulting in CO. Therefore it seems to me that making sure both requirements are met eliminates the danger. That is why I use 1) an open window and 2) An open door to a much larger space for the second area.

And you know what, you may be right. I just have to wonder at what point the masses switched to becoming slaves to energy providers because it was only those energy providers that could stop people being foolish and killing themselves in mass every year. Electricity and gas are expensive where I live, especially for heating in winter. I've heard of people foregoing groceries just to pay bills. I know for myself I cannot use the system in my home because my bills are enormous.

 

[tango]

It seems like an obvious precaution to invest the $20 or so in a carbon monoxide detector and change what you're doing if it starts beeping at you.

 

[Stravinsk]

It seems like an obvious precaution to invest the $20 or so in a carbon monoxide detector and change what you're doing if it starts beeping at you.

It does seem a reasonable caution.

I have been using my charcoal system for a month. Sometimes, that is 24 hours a day. Like I've said in previous posts, I always make sure there is an oxygen source available. Carbon combustion uses up oxygen. When oxygen gets low, harmful CO is produced over harmless CO2. I suspect the people harmed by this method are just unaware of that and think an open door/window etc is a portal for heat to escape and therefore a waste instead of being necessary. Some heat does escape, for sure, but charcoal burns very hot.

Have a look at this Aussie news piece.



Notes: "They all had headaches" . O k. But I have never gotten one.
Notes: Girl @ 49 second mark: She didn't get scared until the rescuers started feinting? She seems amused and rescuers start feinting within seconds/minutes of entering a home? Really?
Notes: They said they only brought the charcoal in for 1 hour. But I can have it going for 24 hours. Is there magic that protects Mr. Stravinsk or is this a bit of sensationalist media?
Notes: Girl @ 1 minute mark: "People were running out screaming for help" - uh - weren't they supposed to have passed out and been seconds away from death? The girl that supposedly raised the alarm said at 49 seconds that she was "sick and dying" but wasn't scared and didn't become scared until rescuers showed up. If she wasn't scared, why run out of the house and call for help in the first place?

 

[Jazzy]

Here's a very informative article about the use of charcoal inside.

 

[Stravinsk]

Here's a very informative article about the use of charcoal inside.

Thanks for the article, however I'm afraid it's misleading. Charcoal is not unique in producing CO poisoning. Running a generator or burning any carbon or hydrocarbon in an enclosed, non ventilated area will produce dangerous amounts of CO. That is why even my ducted air/con /heater (that I do not use) takes in oxygen from the outside.

In the simplest terms, oxygen solves the Carbon Monoxide problem because it allows for complete combustion and resulting CO2 instead of CO.

I have run a charcoal heater (basically a metal pot sitting on some tiles with a small amount of hot charcoal in it) for 8 plus hours for the better part of 2 weeks, using it every night in my sleeping area. I keep my bedroom windows closed, but my door slightly open to a much larger space that is filled with oxygen.

My kitty cat sometimes joins me in this area and I greet her in the mornings sleeping on the end of my bed. Her instincts have not directed her away and she's still alive and healthy too.

For a month I have been using it in a non-sleeping area with an open window. Often for many hours at a time.

Now, it might be reasonable in saying it's possible I'm getting a low level CO poisoning if one assumed what I'm doing is not enough. But I wake up feeling fine. I have not had any headaches, shortness of breath or any symptoms in the mornings. And of course I can't be writing this as a dead person so it seems to me the media is not providing a complete picture on the subject and simple solutions, instead opting for "approved" methods (that just so happen to cost a lot of $$ to operate).

It's also possible that I will croak soon and my weirdness shall forever be absent as a blessing or curse to readers here. But at least I can testify that I lasted a month operating this thing for long hours compared to the media hype (as per video in previous post) which in my estimation is so much hyped bs.

 

[tango]

Seriously, don't get too caught up in this whole "media" and "big utility" stuff. You can get CO poisoning from a badly maintained natural gas boiler even if you are paying the $$$ to the utility companies, so it's not as if paying big bucks to utility companies will save you from it. If anything the badly maintained gas boiler will probably mean paying even more $$$ because it won't burn as efficiently.

I suspect it's more a case of something being fundamentally safe until something shifts the balance and it isn't safe any more. You wouldn't necessarily know when that happened, especially if you're sleeping. I think where burning natural gas is concerned you'd expect blue flames, maybe tinged with slightly yellow edges, and if you get yellow flames you've probably got less efficient burning and more CO being produced. I'm not sure what conditions would need to exist for dangerous amounts of CO to escape into the living space rather than being vented out of the flue.

 

[atpollard]

I'm not sure what conditions would need to exist for dangerous amounts of CO to escape into the living space rather than being vented out of the flue.

A nest (bird or wasp) in the flue, or a damaged roof vent (like from a falling branch) might back combustion gasses into the house.

 

[tango]

A nest (bird or wasp) in the flue, or a damaged roof vent (like from a falling branch) might back combustion gasses into the house.

I was thinking more along the lines of issues with the boiler rather than the flue itself, although a blockage in the flue would certainly do it.

 

[Stravinsk]

For what it's worth, and since I am, by my action and testimony potentially harming someone who may read it, I did experience a negative last night. I used slightly more charcoal in my sleeping area where I keep the windows closed but the door open to a larger area. Within a few hours I was short of breath and feeling not well. I didn't ignore this, and opened the windows and took the charcoal outside. 2 hours later and I was feeling o k. This was the first time in 2 weeks this happened, and hasn't convinced me not to use it, but rather to re-think where I'm placing the unit and perhaps putting it nearer an open window. I'll still get heat. Charcoal burns hot.

 

[tango]

For what it's worth, and since I am, by my action and testimony potentially harming someone who may read it, I did experience a negative last night. I used slightly more charcoal in my sleeping area where I keep the windows closed but the door open to a larger area. Within a few hours I was short of breath and feeling not well. I didn't ignore this, and opened the windows and took the charcoal outside. 2 hours later and I was feeling o k. This was the first time in 2 weeks this happened, and hasn't convinced me not to use it, but rather to re-think where I'm placing the unit and perhaps putting it nearer an open window. I'll still get heat. Charcoal burns hot.

... or get a CO detector that beeps very loudly for when you are sleeping?

 

[Stravinsk]

... or get a CO detector that beeps very loudly for when you are sleeping?

Yes, there is that, and I am very likely to acquire one.

On reflection, the issue seems quite simple. When charcoal burns down it leaves ash...rather sand. Quite a lot of it. A single briquette can be buried in it's own sand within a few hours, if left on a flat surface.

Most mornings, emptying the charcoal vessel, I was sifting out sand, with small amounts hot charcoal buried within that were still hot.

On the night in question, I put new charcoal on already burning charcoal immersed in sand. For the purpose of igniting it, of course. The new charcoal did ignite, but it's ignition source was buried in sand. Being buried does not put it out. These buried pieces are still hot....but being buried, they do not burn correctly (with oxygen)...they burn incomplete, and emit CO.

Combine this with only a small open space for oxygen (the open door, no open windows), and I believe I have found the problem. Charcoal will continue to burn hot even when completely immersed in it's own by-product - - ash or sand. As such, it does not receive adequate oxygen and will emit CO. Therefore, some sort of grate is needed.

I have experimented and found that even single briquettes of charcoal, left on a flat surface, will, within a few hours, be buried within their own by-product- sand/ash... and will continue burning, even buried. Sifting out the ash in the mornings confirm this. This seems to be the obvious answer to increased CO emissions.

 

[Lamb]

For what it's worth, and since I am, by my action and testimony potentially harming someone who may read it, I did experience a negative last night. I used slightly more charcoal in my sleeping area where I keep the windows closed but the door open to a larger area. Within a few hours I was short of breath and feeling not well. I didn't ignore this, and opened the windows and took the charcoal outside. 2 hours later and I was feeling o k. This was the first time in 2 weeks this happened, and hasn't convinced me not to use it, but rather to re-think where I'm placing the unit and perhaps putting it nearer an open window. I'll still get heat. Charcoal burns hot.

You could also consider a charcoal allergy. I'm allergic to it.

 

[Stravinsk]

You could also consider a charcoal allergy. I'm allergic to it.

The negative experience was a one-off. I have since used even more charcoal at one time than that night. The biggest difference now is that I sit it on top of a grate. This is because as charcoal burns, what remains is ash/sand - and this sand can quickly bury said charcoal. When it is buried, it continues to burn, but with inadequate oxygen, which results in carbon monoxide. The grate allows the charcoal's ash to fall below it, so that it does not get buried. As I write this I am burning 9 standard size pieces of charcoal on a grate, with a window open, and no problems, and have been doing so for 4 hours.

There is a real danger of carbon monoxide, as I've learned. Charcoal can be dangerous. It can also be used with relative safety, and this is not what the scare news stories tell people.

 

[Stravinsk]

I love this hardwood charcoal I bought recently. Provides heat for hours and hours, with very little ash. Far superior than the charcoal briquettes sold that turn to ash quickly, leading me to think the latter was made with inferior materials. Imagine the little ash provided by these might be suitable for making lye too.