Can someone please explain just exactly how 2 Maccabees teaches purgatory?

[NathanH83]

My thoughts on the subject are typed up in a PDF, available here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pXEFdNS96S5g4EBFhvqNQ2s3_7Tl1NKV/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[Origen]

The very first thing I noticed was this demonstrably false claim.

After all, out of the oldest copies of the Greek Septuagint, all of them contained these
books. Whether it’s Codex Vaticanus from the 4th century, or Codex Alexandrinus from
the 5th century, or Codex Sinaiticus from the 4th century. These are all ancient copies of
the Septuagint, and they contain these “Apocryphal” books.

(1) All the books of the Maccabees are missing in Codex Vaticanus.

(2) Codex Sinaiticus contains ONLY 1st Maccabees and 4th Maccabees.

(3) Codex Alexandrinus contains 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Maccabees.

Thus 2 Maccabees is missing from two of the above codices.

 

[atpollard]

Why do your titles ask a question that you do not want answered?
What’s with the “click bait” for constant diatribes about the evil Catholic Church removing the blessed APOCRYPHA as delivered in the “God-breathed” Septuagint from our hopelessly corrupt modern Bibles.

Since that is all that you ever want to talk about, you should announce it in the title and stop deceiving people that you want to discuss Purgatory.

[sigh]

Caio.

 

[atpollard]

Can someone please explain just exactly how 2 Maccabees teaches purgatory?​

The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches:

All who die in God’s grace, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (1030).

This seems so simple. It’s common sense. Scripture is very clear when it says, “But nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]” (Rev. 21:27). Hab. 1:13 says, “You [God]… are of purer eyes than to behold evil and cannot look on wrong…” How many of us will be perfectly sanctified at the time of our deaths? I dare say most of us will be in need of further purification in order to enter the gates of heaven after we die, if, please God, we die in a state of grace.

Perhaps the best place to start is with the most overt reference to a “Purgatory” of sorts in the Old Testament. I say a “Purgatory of sorts” because Purgatory is a teaching fully revealed in the New Testament and defined by the Catholic Church. The Old Testament people of God would not have called it “Purgatory,” but they did clearly believe that the sins of the dead could be atoned for by the living as I will now prove. This is a constitutive element of what Catholics call “Purgatory.”

In II Maccabees 12:39-46, we discover Judas Maccabeus and members of his Jewish military forces collecting the bodies of some fallen comrades who had been killed in battle. When they discovered these men were carrying “sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear” (vs. 40), Judas and his companions discerned they had died as a punishment for sin. Therefore, Judas and his men “turned to prayer beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out… He also took up a collection… and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably… Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.”

There are usually two immediate objections to the use of this text when talking with Protestants. First, they will dismiss any evidence presented therein because they do not accept the inspiration of Maccabees. And second, they will claim these men in Maccabees committed the sin of idolatry, which would be a mortal sin in Catholic theology. According to the Catholic Church, they would be in Hell where there is no possibility of atonement. Thus, and ironically so, they will say, Purgatory must be eliminated as a possible interpretation of this text if you’re Catholic.


Rejecting the inspiration and canonicity of II Maccabees does not negate its historical value. Maccabees aids us in knowing, purely from an historical perspective at the very least, the Jews believed in praying and making atonement for the dead shortly before the advent of Christ. This is the faith in which Jesus and the apostles were raised. And it is in this context Jesus declares in the New Testament:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come (Matthew 12:32, emphasis added).

This declaration of our Lord implies there are at least some sins that can be forgiven in the next life to a people who already believed it. If Jesus wanted to condemn this teaching commonly taught in Israel, he was not doing a very good job of it according to St. Matthew’s Gospel.

The next objection presents a more complex problem. The punishment for mortal sin is, in fact, definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed in Hell according to Catholic teaching (see CCC 1030). But it is a non-sequitur to conclude from this teaching that II Maccabees could not be referring to a type of Purgatory.

First of all, a careful reading of the text reveals the sin of these men to be carrying small amulets “or sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia” under their tunics as they were going in to battle. This would be closer to a Christian baseball player believing there is some kind of power in his performing superstitious rituals before going to bat than it would be to the mortal sin of idolatry. This was, most likely, a venial sin for them. But even if what they did would have been objectively grave matter, good Jews in ancient times—just like good Catholics today—believed they should always pray for the souls of those who have died “for thou [O Lord], thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men” (II Chr. 6:30). God alone knows the degree of culpability of these “sinners.” Moreover, some or all of them may have repented before they died. Both Jews and Catholic Christians always retain hope for the salvation of the deceased this side of heaven; thus, we always pray for those who have died.


From Catholic Answers

 

[Josiah]

The very first thing I noticed was this demonstrably false claim.

After all, out of the oldest copies of the Greek Septuagint, all of them contained these
books. Whether it’s Codex Vaticanus from the 4th century, or Codex Alexandrinus from
the 5th century, or Codex Sinaiticus from the 4th century. These are all ancient copies of
the Septuagint, and they contain these “Apocryphal” books.

(1) All the books of the Maccabees are missing in Codex Vaticanus.

(2) Codex Sinaiticus contains ONLY 1st Maccabees and 4th Maccabees.

(3) Codex Alexandrinus contains 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Maccabees.

Thus 2 Maccabees is missing from two of the above codices.

Origen, it's annoying how you point out facts.



.

 

[Origen]

Origen, it's annoying how you point out facts.

I know.

 

[NathanH83]

The very first thing I noticed was this demonstrably false claim.

After all, out of the oldest copies of the Greek Septuagint, all of them contained these
books. Whether it’s Codex Vaticanus from the 4th century, or Codex Alexandrinus from
the 5th century, or Codex Sinaiticus from the 4th century. These are all ancient copies of
the Septuagint, and they contain these “Apocryphal” books.

(1) All the books of the Maccabees are missing in Codex Vaticanus.

(2) Codex Sinaiticus contains ONLY 1st Maccabees and 4th Maccabees.

(3) Codex Alexandrinus contains 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th Maccabees.

Thus 2 Maccabees is missing from two of the above codices.

A technicality that is irrelevant to the discussion about how 2 Maccabees endorses purgatory.

 

[Origen]

A technicality that is irrelevant to the discussion about how 2 Maccabees endorses purgatory.

Not really. Finding demonstrably false claims lets everyone know the poor academic quality of the work.

 

[NathanH83]

Not really. Finding demonstrably false claims lets everyone know the poor academic quality of the work.

Back on topic please.
How does 2 Maccabees endorse purgatory?

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

2 Maccabees 12:46
It is therefore a holy and wholesomethought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

those in heaven have no sin, those in hell are eternally lost, hence purgatory!

 

[Andrew]

2 Maccabees 12:46
It is therefore a holy and wholesomethought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

those in heaven have no sin, those in hell are eternally lost, hence purgatory!

Of course it's a wholesome and saintly thought to pray for mercy on the dead, it shows compassion and honest hope ...but that is all it is.. a thought... it does not say that it's a holy and wholesome practice or sacrament, act or gesture to pray for the dead.

Btw prayers for the dead had always been a part of Jewish culture even before the time of the Maccabees, they still do it today at funerals, it's not Orthodox but it isn't forbidden either, it's a plea to God in response to his promise of a resurrection, it's a sign of intimacy with God to pray for what the heart swells with hope for especially in a time of grieving, as well as to commemorate those who have passed.[/i]

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

2 mac 12:42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.

43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

Not only a thought but prayers and a collection for to offer sacrifices in the temple

Sheol or the place of the dead for the Jews before Christ lead the captives out was also called Abraham’s bosom

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

Christian Purgatory


Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

St. Francis de Sales commented:

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory. (The Catholic Controversy translated by Henry B. Mackey, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1989 [orig. 1596], 373)

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:

ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:

These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)

Indulgences are graces merited by the passion and blood of Christ.

They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)

Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)

 

[Faithhopeandcharity]

While you’re at it
Indulgences

1st of all these are based on misunderstandings and accusations

Salvation has nothing to do with indulgences nor the forgiveness of sin!

Salvation is God’s mercy to us thru His church by grace!

An indulgence is a merit of Jesus Christ thru his blood passion and death! Jn 1:16 & 1:29

Cannot sell indulgences
There were indulgences granted to those who supported the building of saint peters, not selling, (donations) but if you chose to make a donation you could get an indulgence, but there were and are many other ways to get them without making a donation! Not a requirement

You did something and got a favorable response, like buying a dozen dognuts and get one free, they may accuse you cannot selling 13 but you actually only sold 12 and gave one free.

Salvation is of grace with mercy and the forgiveness of sins, but the temporal punishment due to sin Christ did not take away, just like he did not take away our sin nature and restore up to the state of innocence in the garden.

Example: a child breaks a window with his baseball, his father forgives him totally, but the child work and earn money to pay for the window, and we must pray, fast, alms, penance, carry our cross and practice Christian virtues to expiate the temporal punishment due to our sins, God provides for everything in His goodness and gives us ample means to do this, and it purifies our souls in this life or if not he also provides a means of purification in the next.

And we can pray for and do penance and gain indulgences for those being purified since they are in the communion of saints like us and those already perfected in heaven!