Calvinism Vs Arminian

Josiah

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And thus all humanity is saved.


.... in your world where faith is irrelevant.

But in biblical Christianity, faith is NOT irrelevant. Faith is the means whereby an individual apprehends/embraces/trusts/replies/recieves what Christ has done; faith is the means that brings His work to the individual.

Of course, in the world of hyper-Calvinism, there is no faith in justification/atonement/salvation. Thus, you just ignore ANYTHING that adds faith to the issue. In your world, there are only TWO possibilites: Either Jesus died for only, exclusively, solely, just a limited few OR universalism. Sorry, but the bible and orthodox/traditional Christianity boldly, verbatim, obvioulsy condemns both of those faithless modern inventions (both by hyper-Calvinists).



MennoSota said:
Re-read Matthew 25


Just did.

Says NOTHING about Jesus dying ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY, JUST for a LIMITED few.
Says NOTHING about faith being irrelevant in justification.



MennoSota said:
Wait, God limits whom He will choose by marking them?


.... not in your position. God didn't limit faith, He disregards it. Jesus simply died for only, exclusively, solely, just a limited few (and thus, odds are, not for you or me or most here at CH). For most, Christ is not their savior. So if they have faith in Him, it's likely irrelevant since Jesus is not for them, their faith is embracing a ghost, a phantom, emptiness, a void, a cruel joke because there's nothing there for that faith to apprehend.

In biblical Christianity, Jesus died for all (as the Bible so often verbatim, clearly, unmistakenly states) so there is something REAL there (not a cruel joke, not a phantom, not an empty promise). In biblical Christianity, it's the lack of FAITH that means some aren't save, not the lack of JESUS. It's the absence of faith, not the absence of the Cross. It's the absence of faith, not a cruel joke by God.

If someone gives you a Starbucks card (PAID FOR!!!!!!! REAL!!!!!!) but you don't ever use it (don't embrace/apprehend/trust/rely it - faith) then do you get your coffee? If not, is that because the card was a fake, a fraud, a cruel joke... or because you didn't use it? Is it because a REAL card wasn't given or because there was no faith to use it?

I agree, God does not give faith to all. But that's a whole other issue than Jesus not dying for all.


Your horrible theology is not only directly contradictory of SO many Scriptures but is a horror. It means that no one can know if their faith in Christ means anything at all since Christ is likely not THEIR Savior, their faith in Him is irrelevant because He is not for them... God's call to believe is a joke because for most, He has nothing for them.




.
 

MennoSota

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lol ok well now you are just arguing because we agree and God forbid that a non Calvinists can understand that God chooses his sheep and rejects the goats, I don't believe that the goats he rejects are saved (that would be an oxymoron)..
So Jesus atonement is limited to the sheep.

No one here ever said that 'Christ died for the people of the world'.. I said Sin, the 'Sin' of this world.
If Jesus took away the sin of all the people of this world, then they are all sinless and not condemned. They all go to heaven. Correct?

What is 'sin' to a non believer?
Who cares? The question is: What is sin to God?

If we believe we can convert/save a goat then they were never a goat, they were a lost sheep.
If you believe you can convert anyone, you are sorely mistaken. Only God makes people alive in Christ Jesus. Read Ephesians 2.

There is a song I am reminded of titled "Sheep go to heaven, goats go to hell"
Okay. So Jesus atonement is limited to the sheep. Correct?

We can see the symbolism here can't we menno? Am I a literal sheep that goes "baaaaaaaaaaaah"? No, it is symbolic to the sheep that goes toward the shepard when he calls, the ones that get away find themselves lost among goats/wolves in sheeps clothing, the shepard will leave the herd to find that lost sheep.
Does Matthew 25 say that, though? No it doesn't. Read Matthew 25.

You blot out the symbolism and replace it with TULIP, we (non calvinists) prefer the symbolic biblical explanation instead of lawyer language. No offense
Not true.
I read what the Bible says.
Here's what Matthew 25 says.

Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 

MennoSota

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Matthew 25 has these two contrasts between the sheep and the goats.
To the sheep:
Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
To the goats:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

God chooses. God limits his salvation to those adopted from before the foundation of the world.
 

MoreCoffee

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Has the I of TULIP been dispensed with?

Irresistible grace it is.

This I

But can no one resist the Holy Spirit?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I wonder if you think that is resistible grace or not?
 

MennoSota

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Has the I of TULIP been dispensed with?

Irresistible grace it is.

This I

But can no one resist the Holy Spirit?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

I wonder if you think that is resistible grace or not?
What does your 10,000 page catechism tell you, MC? Your uncanny ability to prooftext a sentence and think it proves something is amazing.

John 6:35-40
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
 

MennoSota

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Simply put, the doctrine of irresistible grace refers to the biblical truth that whatever God decrees to happen will inevitably come to pass, even in the salvation of individuals. The Holy Spirit will work in the lives of the elect so that they inevitably will come to faith in Christ. The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit never fails to bring to salvation those sinners whom He personally calls to Christ (John 6:37-40). At the heart of this doctrine is the answer to the question: Why does one person believe the gospel and another does not? Is it because one is smarter, has better reasoning capabilities, or possesses some other characteristic that allows him to realize the importance of the gospel message? Or is it because God does something unique in the lives of those whom He saves? If it is because of what the person who believes does or is, then in a sense he is responsible for his salvation and has a reason to boast. However, if the difference is solely that God does something unique in the hearts and lives of those who believe in Him and are saved, then there is no ground for boasting and salvation is truly a gift of grace. Of course, the biblical answer to these questions is that the Holy Spirit does do something unique in the hearts of those who are saved. The Bible tells us that God saves people “according to His mercy…through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5). In other words, those who believe the gospel and are saved do so because they have been transformed by the Holy Spirit.

The doctrine of irresistible grace recognizes that the Bible describes natural man as “dead in his trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1; Ephesians 2:5; Colossians 2:13), and, because man is spiritually dead, he must first be made alive or regenerated in order to understand and respond to the gospel message. A good illustration of this is seen in Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. In John 11:43, it is recorded that Jesus told Lazarus to “come forth” and that Lazarus came forth out of the tomb. What had to happen before Lazarus—who had been dead for several days—would be able to respond to Jesus’ command? He had to be made alive because a dead man cannot hear or respond. The same is true spiritually. If we are dead in our sins, as the Bible clearly teaches, then before we can respond to the gospel message and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ we must first be made alive. As Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:3, one must be “born again to see the kingdom of God.” John 1:12-13 tells us that being born again is not the result of something we do—“the will of man”—but is a sovereign act of God. Just as Lazarus could not bring himself back to life or respond to Jesus’ command without being brought back to life, neither can sinful man. Ephesians 2:1-10 makes it very clear that while we are still dead in our trespasses and sin God makes us alive. The Bible is also clear that the act of being born again or regenerated is a sovereign act of God. It is something He does which enables us to believe the gospel message, not something that comes as a result of our belief.

The reason this doctrine is called “irresistible” grace is that it always results in the intended outcome, the salvation of the person it is given to. It is important to realize that the act of being regenerated or “born again” cannot be separated from the act of believing the gospel. Ephesians 2:1-10 makes this clear. There is a connection between the act of being made alive by God (Ephesians 2:1, 5) and the result of being saved by grace. (Ephesians 2:5, 8). This is because everything pertaining to salvation, including the faith to believe, is an act of God’s grace. The reason God’s grace is irresistible and efficacious (always bringing forth the desired result) is that God “has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into” His kingdom (Colossians 1:13). Or, as Psalm 3:8 puts it, “Salvation belongs to the Lord.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/irresistible-grace.html
 

MoreCoffee

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What does your 10,000 page catechism tell you, MC?
ten thousand pages eh? Mine has about 400 pages. You must be smoking something illegal.


Your uncanny ability to prooftext a sentence and think it proves something is amazing.

John 6:35-40
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Seems that Acts 7:51's context would be in the book of Acts around Chapter 7.
 

Andrew

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Who cares? The question is: What is sin to God?

Wow, I guess I should have told my atheist friend this one when she said to me "if I don't believe in sin then I am sinless"..
A good way to help guide someone to why sin should be acknowledged as something we are all born into despite being 'just a good person'...
Good way of spreading the good news I guess.
Honestly I believe you would make a terrible missionary with that attitude "who cares" tisk tisk tisk
 
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MennoSota

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ten thousand pages eh? Mine has about 400 pages. You must be smoking something illegal.




Seems that Acts 7:51's context would be in the book of Acts around Chapter 7.
What is happening in chapter 7? Perhaps if you had a clue, you'd see why you quoting of the one verse is so stupid.
 

MoreCoffee

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What is happening in chapter 7? Perhaps if you had a clue, you'd see why you quoting of the one verse is so stupid.

Here's chapter seven now you can explain why it does not say (and mean) that faithless Israelites (Jews) resist the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:1-60 Then said the high priest, Are these things so? 2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran, 3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. 4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. 5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. 6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. 7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place. 8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs. 9 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him, 10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house. 11 Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance. 12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first. 13 And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh. 14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls. 15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, 16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem. 17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt, 18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph. 19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live. 20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months: 21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son. 22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds. 23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel. 24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian: 25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not. 26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another? 27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us? 28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday? 29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons. 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abrham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. 34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt. 35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. 37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, 40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. 42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? 43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon. 44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. 45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; 46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things? 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.​
 

MennoSota

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Wow, I guess I should have told my atheist friend this one when she said to me "if I don't believe in sin then I am sinless"..
A good way to help guide someone to why sin should be acknowledged as something we are all born into despite being 'just a good person'...
Good way of spreading the good news I guess.
Honestly I believe you would make a terrible missionary with that attitude "who cares" tisk tisk tisk
Again...what does God believe about sin?
What humans believe will not change how God deals with sin.
Share the good news. Accept everyone. Approve only what God approves. Be an ambassador of reconciliation. God will either save a person or He won't.
As to your personal opinion of my missionary skills... meh. I don't care what you think of me. I care what God requires of me and that I fulfill the role He has for me. You will never be friends with everyone. Some people just reject truth.
 

MennoSota

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Here's chapter seven now you can explain why it does not say (and mean) that faithless Israelites (Jews) resist the Holy Spirit.

Acts 7:1-60 Then said the high priest, Are these things so? 2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran, 3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee. 4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell. 5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. 6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. 7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place. 8 And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat the twelve patriarchs. 9 And the patriarchs, moved with envy, sold Joseph into Egypt: but God was with him, 10 And delivered him out of all his afflictions, and gave him favour and wisdom in the sight of Pharaoh king of Egypt; and he made him governor over Egypt and all his house. 11 Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance. 12 But when Jacob heard that there was corn in Egypt, he sent out our fathers first. 13 And at the second time Joseph was made known to his brethren; and Joseph's kindred was made known unto Pharaoh. 14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls. 15 So Jacob went down into Egypt, and died, he, and our fathers, 16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the father of Sychem. 17 But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt, 18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph. 19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live. 20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father's house three months: 21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh's daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son. 22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds. 23 And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel. 24 And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian: 25 For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not. 26 And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another? 27 But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us? 28 Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday? 29 Then fled Moses at this saying, and was a stranger in the land of Madian, where he begat two sons. 30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush. 31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him, 32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abrham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold. 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground. 34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt. 35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush. 36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. 37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. 38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, 40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 41 And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. 42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? 43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon. 44 Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen. 45 Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David; 46 Who found favour before God, and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob. 47 But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50 Hath not my hand made all these things? 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.​
Thanks. So you see the stupidity of your using one verse as a prooftext? Or are you still entirely clueless?
 

MoreCoffee

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Thanks. ... your using one verse as a prooftext? ...

I had to delete the personal insults for brevity's sake.

One verse in saint Stephen's 'sermon' to the Jewish leaders seems quite adequate to point to their restating the Holy Spirit as did their forefathers in Israelite unbelief.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)

Do you have an explanation of the verse that makes it stop saying that ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye?
 

Josiah

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I

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)


Correct. The "I" of TULIP is yet another case of something totally made up, not only having NOTHING in Scripture or Tradition or the Councils that teaches it (which is why MennoSota can't quote any Scripture here) and directly contradicts Scripture.


Here we go again. Same/same.


We'll see EXACTLY the same endless dance as we did with the "L". The same shell game (the constant, perpetual changing of the subject). We'll soon see the same mischaracterization of what others say, the same "ONLY TWO POSSIBILITIES ALLOWED (all must be a hyper-Calvinist or hyper-Arminianist because those are the only positions permitted), the same "if you are wrong, I must be right" silliness.


TULIP was invented in the late 16th Century by a FEW latter-day hyper-Calvinists to be a direct, point-by-point opposite of what some Arminianists taught (if they taught it, the opposite is right - the "only two options" argument). Like the Arminianist positions, it is a TIGHT, neat, interrelated, inter-dependent argument, not founded on Scripture at all but on the argument that whatever the Arminianists say, the opposite is true. And like the Arminianists, we find the same "BUT it's logical!" point (since clearly it's not biblical). "Since A is true, then it's logical that B is true and thus that C is true." It's very illogical in addition to being unbiblical.

Both also are guilty of EXACTLY what they both rebuked Catholicism for: SPECULATION turned into dogma, not because of Scripture but because it "jibed" with the "logic" and "philosophy" of the inventors. Funny to see hyper-Calvinists rebuke Purgatory and the reasons they give, then see them do the SAME THING (but worse, and far more dangerously) with some of the parts of TULIP. And funny to see Catholics see what these hyper-Calvinists do and not see how their denomination has done exactly the same thing. In the words of my Greek Orthodox friend, "Some Christians just can't shut up..... Some Christians just won't leave well enough alone.... Some Christians insist they know more than God." Yup, when you stick with biblical/historic Christianity, you have some mystery, some unanswered questions, some "dots" not connected. But a little humility accepts that, accepts that God likely knows more than we do.


Correct. The "I" of TULIP is also without substantiation. And our hyper Calvinist friend won't even try (because he can't). He'll shout about "logic" while being very illogical.... He's insist there are only two possible positions.... he'll scream that Scripture doesn't mean what it says.... He'll shout that since the rest of TULIP is right, this has to be to (without ever even engaging in whether the rest is actually true).... He'll shout about how he can ask questions.... He'll insist that if you don't answer the questions so as to agree with him then you didn't answer the question. Welcome to the world of hyper-Calvinism (it's the same with hyper-Arminianism).




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MennoSota

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I had to delete the personal insults for brevity's sake.

One verse in saint Stephen's 'sermon' to the Jewish leaders seems quite adequate to point to their restating the Holy Spirit as did their forefathers in Israelite unbelief.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)

Do you have an explanation of the verse that makes it stop saying that ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye?
Was he addressing Israel or all humanity? Come in MC, you can't be this ignorant...can you?
 

MoreCoffee

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Was he addressing Israel or all humanity?

He was addressing the wicked leaders in Judea not too long after the Lord was crucified. That is clear and easy to see. Are you suggesting that such men were able to resist the Holy Spirit but no one else can?
 

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He was addressing the wicked leaders in Judea not too long after the Lord was crucified. That is clear and easy to see. Are you suggesting that such men were able to resist the Holy Spirit but no one else can?
Was he talking about being able to continually resist the Spirit of God so that their will is greater than God's will in saving them?
Come on, MC, start to use that brain of yours.
 

Josiah

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Was he talking about being able to continually resist the Spirit of God so that their will is greater than God's will in saving them?
Come on, MC, start to use that brain of yours.


I find it wonderfully refreshing when our Catholic brother uses Scripture in stead of brain's speculations.

Personally, I like employing Scripture rather an individual speculation.
 

Josiah

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I wonder how long it will take before it becomes undeniably OBVIOUS that our Calvinist friend has not one Scripture to support this "I" in Tulip (no Scripture or anything else for that matter).
 

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I suggest people read the Bible instead of their catechism or concord. Chances are they'll see how poorly they understood God and his word.
I have shared much scripture. Vastly more than others. That people are too incompetent is not my fault.
 
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