Bound for Hell, not God's fault

[Lamb]

Calvinists would like you to believe that God is responsible for those who are going to hell. But that's not the case. Because of the fall, which was the fault of Adam and Eve, not God, man is already bound for hell.

 

[tango]

One trouble with predestination is that it opens up huge cans of worms every which way. If Adam and Eve were preordained to eat the forbidden fruit then can we say it was their fault?

 

[Frankj]

Calvinists would like you to believe that God is responsible for those who are going to hell. But that's not the case. Because of the fall, which was the fault of Adam and Eve, not God, man is already bound for hell.

The Noachian laws given to the offspring of Noah (which encompasses all of mankind) and the Ten Commandments given Israel through Moses later on would make no sense either if there was no choice to obey or disobey God. This would simply not make sense.

I like to look at as Einstein did when examining a proposed new theory and ask "Why would God do it that way?".

If anything of God can be determined through the examination of his creation (The Heavens and the Earth) it is that everything he does makes sense and we should look at all things scriptural or otherwise that way.

 

[Lamb]

Ephesians 2:3

By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Calvinists would like you to believe that God is responsible for those who are going to hell. But that's not the case. Because of the fall, which was the fault of Adam and Eve, not God, man is already bound for hell.

Lamb, please don't generalize about all Calvinists, because as a Calvinist, I don't believe that God is at all responsible for people's perdition; they are. I and most Calvinists, other than a small minority called hyper-Calvinists, believe that God allows or permits people to go to hell. God plans all, including his permissive will for evil, but people are fully responsible for all their decisions in life.

 

[BruceLeiter]

One trouble with predestination is that it opens up huge cans of worms every which way. If Adam and Eve were preordained to eat the forbidden fruit then can we say it was their fault?

God permits evil in his plan for good, the good that Jesus would eventually bring us (Genesis 3:15) by defeating Satan.

 

[denise]

God gives choice to accept him are go to hell we choose

 

[tango]

God permits evil in his plan for good, the good that Jesus would eventually bring us (Genesis 3:15) by defeating Satan.

Sure, but it requires that we have the ability to choose between the two. If Adam and Eve had no choice but to eat the forbidden fruit how can we say it was their fault that they did eat it?

 

[Frankj]

Sure, but it requires that we have the ability to choose between the two. If Adam and Eve had no choice but to eat the forbidden fruit how can we say it was their fault that they did eat it?

It wouldn't be forbidden in there was no choice, for what then would the purpose of forbidding it be?

 

[tango]

It wouldn't be forbidden in there was no choice, for what then would the purpose of forbidding it be?

Exactly. The original post talked about Calvinists and the view that God is responsible for people going to hell, a view that I think leads into some of these questions.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Exactly. The original post talked about Calvinists and the view that God is responsible for people going to hell, a view that I think leads into some of these questions.

As I said to Lamb above, I, as a Calvinist among the large majority of Calvinists, do not believe at all that God is responsible for evil choices humans make. We believe that he allows but does not cause human sin and therefore is not responsible for it. Sin is solely caused by humans' sinful natures, the devil, and the tempting world.

 

[tango]

As I said to Lamb above, I, as a Calvinist among the large majority of Calvinists, do not believe at all that God is responsible for evil choices humans make. We believe that he allows but does not cause human sin and therefore is not responsible for it. Sin is solely caused by humans' sinful natures, the devil, and the tempting world.

Fair call, the difference between Calvinists and the ones you called hyper-Calvinists (not unreasonably, IMO) is a good distinction to repeat here.

 

[Planet1246]

God permits evil in his plan for good, the good that Jesus would eventually bring us (Genesis 3:15) by defeating Satan.

Not something I want to be in the middle of.

 

[atpollard]

The Noachian laws given to the offspring of Noah (which encompasses all of mankind) and the Ten Commandments given Israel through Moses later on would make no sense either if there was no choice to obey or disobey God.

Laws against drug use make no sense given the inability of crack addicts to refrain from indulging their addictions.

SIN is not just a choice, it is an ENSLAVEMENT. Paul explained it far better than I ever could.

 

[JustTheFacts]

It seems to me from the words of Jesus that we are not predestined to die in our sin, we choose our path based on influences and desires.

13 He said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How will you understand all of the parables? 14 The farmer sows the word. 15 The ones by the road are the ones where the word is sown; and when they have heard, immediately Satan comes, and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16 These in the same way are those who are sown on the rocky places, who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17 They have no root in themselves, but are short-lived. When oppression or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they stumble. 18 Others are those who are sown among the thorns. These are those who have heard the word, 19 and the cares of this age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 Those which were sown on the good ground are those who hear the word, and accept it, and bear fruit, some thirty times, some sixty times, and some one hundred times.” (Mark 4:13-20)

 

[atpollard]

It seems to me from the words of Jesus that we are not predestined to die in our sin, we choose our path based on influences and desires.

Does the soil really CHOOSE to be a path, or rocky, or full of weeds? Wouldn’t all soils think of themselves as “good soil”? In the end, it is the farmer that plows and moves the rocks and hoe’s the weeds and fertilizes to determine which fields have the best opportunity to yield a good crop for the farmer to harvest. Perhaps the “field” of the world is similar?

 

[JustTheFacts]

Does the soil really CHOOSE to be a path, or rocky, or full of weeds? Wouldn’t all soils think of themselves as “good soil”? In the end, it is the farmer that plows and moves the rocks and hoe’s the weeds and fertilizes to determine which fields have the best opportunity to yield a good crop for the farmer to harvest. Perhaps the “field” of the world is similar?

But the soil doesn’t have a choice. It’s the farmer with the seed, in the parable the seed representative of the word of God, who has choice.

 

[BruceLeiter]

It seems to me from the words of Jesus that we are not predestined to die in our sin, we choose our path based on influences and desires.

13 He said to them, “Don’t you understand this parable? How will you understand all of the parables? 14 The farmer sows the word. 15 The ones by the road are the ones where the word is sown; and when they have heard, immediately Satan comes, and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16 These in the same way are those who are sown on the rocky places, who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with joy. 17 They have no root in themselves, but are short-lived. When oppression or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they stumble. 18 Others are those who are sown among the thorns. These are those who have heard the word, 19 and the cares of this age, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 Those which were sown on the good ground are those who hear the word, and accept it, and bear fruit, some thirty times, some sixty times, and some one hundred times.” (Mark 4:13-20)

You are right to say that we are not predestined to die in our sin. God chooses believers for salvation, but as a result he permits unbelievers to go the way their lives want to go in relying on their many idols for comfort and security. Sadly, I hope and pray that the people of LA will turn to their Creator and Rescuer through Jesus for their comfort and security instead of material and hedonistic idols before it's foo late for them.

 

[JustTheFacts]

You are right to say that we are not predestined to die in our sin. God chooses believers for salvation, but as a result he permits unbelievers to go the way their lives want to go in relying on their many idols for comfort and security. Sadly, I hope and pray that the people of LA will turn to their Creator and Rescuer through Jesus for their comfort and security instead of material and hedonistic idols before it's foo late for them.

Lived in LA for several years from the mid-80 to mid-90s. Visited about ten years ago for a friends wedding and decided then that we never wanted to go back. I'm sure there are still good people, but the ole charm was gone.

 

[BruceLeiter]

Lived in LA for several years from the mid-80 to mid-90s. Visited about ten years ago for a friends wedding and decided then that we never wanted to go back. I'm sure there are still good people, but the ole charm was gone.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to live in any of the big cities on the West Coast. We lived on an island in the Puget Sound about 90 miles north of Seattle. I could have retired in Oak Harbor if any of my kids had decided to stay there, but they didn't. Oak Harbor gets half of the rain that Seattle gets, because they are in the rain-shadow of the Olympic Mountains that are across the Sound.