These two terms really leave a bad taste in my mouth. The main reason was always because I feel people overused them and applied them in the wrong manners.
Where to begin, lol.....
I've had LONG conversations on this - including with a Greek Orthodox pastor (at a website). Just a FEW, quick comments (because this can bog down FAST, especially as East and West talk past each other).....
1. TERMS, LANGUAGE seem to trip up Christians.... a lot. I learned probably by the age of 12 that often the first (necessary) step is to define terms - but I soon learned we at times come from such different starting points, that even that is difficult. Case in point: Protestants and Catholics often talk about "grace" and mean completely different things: Protestants view this in terms of justification (narrow) and define it as God's UNconditional, UNmerited mercy and favor - a free gift. And this use is found in Scripture. Catholics view this in terms of sanctification (narrow) and define it as God's empowering and strength. And this use is also found in Scripture. As one of my Catholic teachers taught us "Grace is the spiritual 'gas' God puts in your 'tank' so that you can get where He calls you to be." So, the Baptist says "We are saved by grace" and the Catholic says "we are saved by grace" and they mean totally different things (and yes, by the word "saved" too). Happens a LOT. This is even harder because while Catholic - Lutheran - Reformed - Anglican share much WESTERN language, there has entered all kinds of other forms of Protestantism in the West, each with their OWN unique language and definitions. And the East and West have never understood each other very well.....
2. Terms, words, language CAN have different meanings - including in the Bible. There is a sense in which "saved" can apply only to justification (narrow) as in "we are saved" but it can also apply to the whole of God's work brought to completion only in heaven so that there is a future tense to it. It all depends WHAT you are referring to. Here again, we often talk past each other. When Protestants use the term "saved" they almost always use it in the sense of justification (narrow) - the changed relationship, the state of mercy. Catholic (and some Protestants) use it in a much broader sense. The word in the Bible is used in these various ways.
3. I sincerely don't believe this is a subject ever developed in the East. I even had a thread specifically on this at an Orthodox website and was specifically told that.... that this whole issue is "a Western thing." The East is focused on Theosis.
4. THIS point is often better addressed in terms of justification itself. We've had several good threads on that here at CH already (although I don't recall you being involved in them). I think it often boils down to a "monergist vs. synergist" understanding. But we've covered this at CH at length. It's usually been MoreCoffee who has driven that discussion (I miss him, I hope he returns).
Soli Deo Gloria
- Josiah
