@donadams
I find it curious (as a former Catholic) that you seem SO concerned with what is true AND that you insist on Sola Scriptura (which your church repudiates).
I don’t have a church, only Jesus has authority to found the church!
Paul says to be all things to all people so when doing apologetics I use the KJV and scripture alone for you’re benefit
I agree with you that error CAN happen (one reason why I left your church). And that DOES raise the issue of how to resolve such. Dispute has been a constant among Christians (we see it all over the NT itself), disputes where at least one "side" is very likely wrong (and maybe both). How t resolve that dispute?
You haven't shown that you read responses to things you raise (especially if the response is not extremely short/easy or simply affirming the claims of your church for itself). But it IS a very important topic and so I'll spend a little time on it even though I doubt you'll read or consider it.
The issue you raise is a part of epistemology. Did you study this in a philosophy class in college? Many of us here have. Epistemology of course is the study of how we know, including how we know what is true and how we resolve disputes about that.
There are many approaches to this. But I'll summarize two that are common in contemporary Christianity (at least in theory).
The Authoritative Approach. Someone is an infallible Authority. Someone just KNOWS and what they say is true BECAUSE OF WHO SAYS IT. It is correct because the one holding the position is an infallible Authority. This was a very common approach in the Western part of the Roman Empire and remained so until the Renaissance in the West. Look for the Authority, accept with docility what that person says. This is the epistemology of The Catholic Church (see CCC 85, 87, etc.). It is also the episteology of the LDS, JW and pretty much all the cults (not that the RCC is a cult, but it does share the same Authoritative approach here). The Catholic Church insists that there is ONE who is Authoritative and infallible (even essentially equating itself with Christ), and that ONE is uniquely and solely itself. The Catholic Church insists that Authority is simply itself. "Docilicly swallow whatever I say, because I tell you to." IF one accepts the one who claims that as correct, then this approach makes sense. Critics of course will note this is pure circular reasoning and that IF such a ONE exists, it needs to point to that claim entirely OUTSIDE itself (but the RCC simply points to its own claims for its own self; Scripture nowhere mentions it for anything and none of the Seven Ecumenical Councils state that it uniquely is infallible).
The Normative Approach. There is some Authority OUTSIDE of all the parties involved, something objective to which all are subject. This approach, common in the Greek and Eastern part of the Empire, became widespread after the Renaissance. The whole concept of the Rule of Law flows from this. In Christianity, this Norm is Scripture, the words of the Bible, those black-and-white things on the page. Jesus Himself used this; He never said "Docilicly accept whatever I say because I'm saying it" (CCC 85, 87, etc.) He pointed to Scripture (dozens of times) and to other things outside of him (especially His miracles and resurrection); Jesus embracing the epistemology common in the East and among the Jews. In Protestantism, this is called "The Rule of Scripture" (or "Sola Scriptura" as Luther called it). I'll put a link below to the epistemology of the Rule of Scripture.
But the "problem" is not just in what Authority one points to (Self or Scripture in our case). But often in the arbitration. And here we have a problem. In the Early Church, there was an "answer" here (albeit a flawed one): The Ecumenical Councils. This is the same arbitration method used in the Rule of Law, if there is a dispute as to the Law and any violations to it, it goes to Court - a trial will happen, a court will decide - and yes, that arbitration isn't always correct, it's not infallible. The Early Church (dominated by the Greek East) did the same. Arbitration will happen in an Ecumenical Council. All the bishops (East and West) will determine which "side" in the debate is in conformity to the Scriptures. The first 3 or 4 when surprisingly well!! The next 3-4 less so. But the whole approach completely failed and after 800 or so, there was no Ecumenical Council but each church/denomination simply held their OWN individual council for their own self, which means there ceased to be any means to resolve disagreements. Luther repeatedly said he'd submit all his veiws to an Ecumenical Council even while acknowledging that such councils CAN be wrong, he nonetheless insisted he'd totally submit to its conclusion. But there had not been an Ecumenical Council for over 700 years so everyone realized conducting a Council would be very difficult (it never happened.... it still hasn't happened). Yes, the RCC itself held a Council for it itself on these matters (The Council of Trent) but it was the antithesis of Ecumenical; only bishops belonging to the RCC were invited and voted.
SO, in reality, neither of the above approaches actually resolves much in some ecumenical, pan-Christian way. The Normative Approach is FAR better and CAN be very helpful, but without any means for ecumenical arbitration, it ultimately doesn't resolve things across Christianity.
the church is authorized and authoritative!
Christ is King and the church His kingdom!
The truth is divine, part of God and comes from God Jn 14:6 Jesus Christ embodies the truth, the truth is no something but somebody!
they are true cos God saty what is truth and correct faith & morals
Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)
Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)
The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!
The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15
True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23
2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)
Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)
Rejection of the one true church or its teaching is rejection of Christ and God!
Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:32 Jn 8:12 & Matt 5:14
This Apostolic Church never turned from the way of truth nor held any kind of error. It is imperative that nothing of the truths which have been defined be lessened, nothing altered, nothing added, but that they be preserved intact in word and meaning. This is the true rule of faith. Pope Agatho
God does not reveal His truth in a vacuum!
God does not set His true adrift on a sea of spiritual anarchy!
God sets His truth in His church, in the possession of His apostles to safeguard, to ensure it is not added to, or taken away from, or changed in any way!
And to teach the same truth to all nations and all ages!
Verified by scripture:
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost!
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints!
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness!
(all scripture not 66 books alone)
Must be instructed in the faith:
Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations…
Jn 29:21-23 as the father sent me, so I send you. (Same mission, power, and authority to teach all nations)
Lk 10:16 He who hears you, (His apostles) hear me.
Jn 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Jn 8:32 You (the apostles) shall know the truth; and the truth shall make you free.
Jn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(His apostles)
The whole purpose for the church of Jesus Christ is to teach all nations the truths revealed by Christ, with the sanctification and the salvation of souls! Matt 28:19
Just cos I don’t respond to every point does not mean I don’t read them, I appreciate you’re time and effort we all have wisdom and insight to share, that’s the whole point of a forum, free and open exchange of ideas thanks
