Be merciful.

[MoreCoffee]

Luke 6:27-36 "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30 Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again. 31 And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Matthew 5:43-48 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Leviticus 19:9-18 "When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field to its very border, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. 10 And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the LORD your God. 11 "You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 And you shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. 13 "You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning. 14 You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the LORD. 15 "You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. 16 You shall not go up and down as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand forth against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD. 17 "You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason with your neighbor, lest you bear sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

A man (or several people including this man) planned to kill Muslims in New Zealand in the city of Christchurch. Which seems such an Irony given the name of the city and the motive for the deed. The motive for the deed appears to be hatred of Muslims especially brown ones from the middle east and Asia. The people who planned it appear to be White supremacists who do not want brown people in countries that they regard as Christian white dominated lands. That's enough about their motives. And about their deeds.

The passages above have something to say about how Christians who are in Christ's Church are to regard others and especially those who might be counted as their enemies.

There are other passages that seem to say otherwise such as

Psalms 137:7-9 Remember, O LORD, against the E'domites the day of Jerusalem, how they said, "Rase it, rase it! Down to its foundations!" 8 O daughter of Babylon, you devastator! Happy shall he be who requites you with what you have done to us! 9 Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!
​

It takes some work to reconcile the passages but it can be done.

Many Christians put the imprecation passages on "the back burner" which is one way of dealing with them.

The passages from the gospels quoted above are a better way, I think, but others may see it differently.

 

[atpollard]

Tell it to the Nigerian Christians whose murder by Muslims is so commonplace it doesn’t even make the news.

”Concerning nonviolence: it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law.

In areas where our people are the constant victims of brutality, and the government seems unable or unwilling to protect them, we should form rifle clubs that can be used to defend our lives and our property in times of emergency, such as happened last year in Birmingham; Plaquemine, Louisiana; Cambridge, Maryland; and Danville, Virginia. When our people are being bitten by dogs, they are within their rights to kill those dogs.”

 

[MennoSota]

Tell it to the Nigerian Christians whose murder by Muslims is so commonplace it doesn’t even make the news.

”Concerning nonviolence: it is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law.

In areas where our people are the constant victims of brutality, and the government seems unable or unwilling to protect them, we should form rifle clubs that can be used to defend our lives and our property in times of emergency, such as happened last year in Birmingham; Plaquemine, Louisiana; Cambridge, Maryland; and Danville, Virginia. When our people are being bitten by dogs, they are within their rights to kill those dogs.”

Mennonites simply pick up and leave. Go to a new city and pray for the peace of the city. Having been persecuted by Christians (Rome, Orthodox and Lutherans) as well as various religions (Islam, Communism and Animism), Mennonites take Jesus Sermon on the Mount seriously. (They may be mixed up in regard to free-will, but they have been faithful to renounce aggression against humans that mistreat them.)
I understand you may not take a similar approach. I accept that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Tell it to the Nigerian Christians whose murder by Muslims is so commonplace it doesn’t even make the news.

So biblical passages like the ones posted in the first post are just fluff to be ignored?

 

[psalms 91]

So biblical passages like the ones posted in the first post are just fluff to be ignored?

No they are not to be ignored any more than people in the bible defending themselves and God leading armies. Face it, sometimes it is right to not only defend yourself but others as well.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No they are not to be ignored any more than people in the bible defending themselves and God leading armies. Face it, sometimes it is right to not only defend yourself but others as well.

I see, does that mean that sometimes it is right to be gentle and take it on one cheek by offering the other also and at other times it is right to be vengeful and take it on the cheek by offering a sword blade through the abs?

 

[psalms 91]

I see, does that mean that sometimes it is right to be gentle and take it on one cheek by offering the other also and at other times it is right to be vengeful and take it on the cheek by offering a sword blade through the abs?

Let me ask you this, WW2, was it just to go to war? If not then you along with a lot of the rest of the world would now be speaking German, that is if you were still alive. I am sure the gypsies and the jews would see it as a just war, not to mention England and France and oh yes, your country as well.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let me ask you this, WW2, was it just to go to war?

The USA didn't go to war until 1941/2 after Japan attacked the naval base at Pearl harbour. Until then the USA didn't want to go to war though the president probably did. So it looks like both yes and no are the answers that the USA gave until the attack. Of course it all happened before I was born so it is book history for me.

Countries such as Switzerland, Sweden, Spain, Portugal, Iceland, Ireland, Afghanistan, North Yemen, Oman, Nepal, Tibet, and the Spanish and Portuguese colonies in Africa, did not go to war in world war 2 and I think all of South America was neutral too. So only some countries went to war, though it is true that they were major countries. So for a lot of the world the answer was no and for a lot the answer was yes. But was it right? Politically and economically and maybe morally too it was expedient to go to war so that German expansionism and Nazi craziness could be ended. Japanese expansionism was not accompanied by Nazi craziness but it was brutal to enemies.

What do you think Jesus would have said? Christians follow Jesus, in theory anyway. Faith is in Jesus according to the gospel he preached. He said love your enemies and do good to them that mistreat you. He advised that if you live by the sword you will die by it too. Maybe he was not a pacifist but he never took up arms to defeat enemies while he was here with human being on earth. Is that a lesson to take to heart?

Some have pointed to the resurrection as a reason to accept the genocide and other brutalities in old testament and new testament stories about judgement. Maybe that perspective will work for the question that you've raised. What do you think?

If not then you along with a lot of the rest of the world would now be speaking German, that is if you were still alive. I am sure the gypsies and the jews would see it as a just war, not to mention England and France and oh yes, your country as well.

 

[psalms 91]

The USA didn't go to war until 1941/2 after Japan attacked the naval base at Pearl harbour. Until then the USA didn't want to go to war though the president probably did. So it looks like both yes and no are the answers that the USA gave until the attack. Of course it all happened before I was born so it is book history for me.

Countries such as Switzerland, Sweden, Spain, Portugal, Iceland, Ireland, Afghanistan, North Yemen, Oman, Nepal, Tibet, and the Spanish and Portuguese colonies in Africa, did not go to war in world war 2 and I think all of South America was neutral too. So only some countries went to war, though it is true that they were major countries. So for a lot of the world the answer was no and for a lot the answer was yes. But was it right? Politically and economically and maybe morally too it was expedient to go to war so that German expansionism and Nazi craziness could be ended. Japanese expansionism was not accompanied by Nazi craziness but it was brutal to enemies.

What do you think Jesus would have said? Christians follow Jesus, in theory anyway. Faith is in Jesus according to the gospel he preached. He said love your enemies and do good to them that mistreat you. He advised that if you live by the sword you will die by it too. Maybe he was not a pacifist but he never took up arms to defeat enemies while he was here with human being on earth. Is that a lesson to take to heart?

Some have pointed to the resurrection as a reason to accept the genocide and other brutalities in old testament and new testament stories about judgement. Maybe that perspective will work for the question that you've raised. What do you think?

I think that when you look to revelation (future) so I will ask you is there a difference between God and Jesus? God seems to use all sorts of things to bring about His judgement during tribulation along of course with satans wrath. So it seems that there are times defense is warrented. I am a mild person but if my life was threatened or great bodily harm was threatened then I would have no problem using whatever was available to me to defend myself and there would be no remorse for doing so.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think that when you look to revelation (future) so I will ask you is there a difference between God and Jesus? God seems to use all sorts of things to bring about His judgement during tribulation along of course with satans wrath. So it seems that there are times defense is warrented. I am a mild person but if my life was threatened or great bodily harm was threatened then I would have no problem using whatever was available to me to defend myself and there would be no remorse for doing so.

It is interesting to me how much of the bible gets relegated to irrelevance for various issues. This issue - war time actions and personal self defence - is only one case of irrelevance blanketing some of what Jesus said about personal conduct as a Christian, Economics is another case where what Jesus said gets relegated to irrelevance for many Christians.

 

[psalms 91]

It is interesting to me how much of the bible gets relegated to irrelevance for various issues. This issue - war time actions and personal self defence - is only one case of irrelevance blanketing some of what Jesus said about personal conduct as a Christian, Economics is another case where what Jesus said gets relegated to irrelevance for many Christians.

I would turn this around and say the same about all the times God used war and yes self defense in His people, even anger such as the case with Elijah and the boys who teased him. I would say that common sense and the situation dictates actions, not a blanket white or black.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would turn this around and say the same about all the times God used war and yes self defense in His people, even anger such as the case with Elijah and the boys who teased him. I would say that common sense and the situation dictates actions, not a blanket white or black.

The bear that ripped apart the children who called out "baldy head" to Elijah were disproportionately punished weren't they?

 

[psalms 91]

The bear that ripped apart the children who called out "baldy head" to Elijah were disproportionately punished weren't they?

I would say so but I am not God and dont know what else they may have done, personally I like bullies getting all that they deserve

 

[MennoSota]

The bear that ripped apart the children who called out "baldy head" to Elijah were disproportionately punished weren't they?

No.
Every one of us will be torn due to our sin, except by God's divine grace. It matters not how the sinner or saint dies. It matters whether God has chosen to reconcile them or leave them in their sins.

 

[MennoSota]

I would turn this around and say the same about all the times God used war and yes self defense in His people, even anger such as the case with Elijah and the boys who teased him. I would say that common sense and the situation dictates actions, not a blanket white or black.

It is important to note what God does by His own volition and what He Ordains by the actions of governments who are raised up and torn down by God's will.
God may guide you to join the military force of the nation you live in. You may be ordered to fight and kill in the name of that nation in accordance with God's will. As far as I can tell, you are never given independent freedom to act as a vigilante.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would say so but I am not God and dont know what else they may have done, personally I like bullies getting all that they deserve

Elisha was a man, probably not especially elderly at the time of the incident. The children were not old enough to be described as men in the story so they were likely prepubescent. They were not likely to be bullies, disrespectful children yes, bullies not likely. The bears that tore them them was likely adult bears. Whatever the story is intended to teach the lesson is very gory and it is likely any parent would be deeply disturbed by it.

Elisha Is Jeered

NIV 2Kings 2:23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

ESV 2Kings 2: [23] He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead! [24] And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys. [25] From there he went on to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.

 

[Arsenios]

Elisha was a man, probably not especially elderly at the time of the incident. The children were not old enough to be described as men in the story so they were likely prepubescent. They were not likely to be bullies, disrespectful children yes, bullies not likely. The bears that tore them them was likely adult bears. Whatever the story is intended to teach the lesson is very gory and it is likely any parent would be deeply disturbed by it.

Elisha Is Jeered

NIV 2Kings 2:23
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him.
“Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!”
24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord.
Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys.
25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia had packs of such children murdering millions...

Millions...

Only 42 children were mauled by the two she-bears?

None killed?

Attacking an old bald man?

I would say Glory to God Who was so Merciful!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Luke 6:27-36 "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from him who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30 Give to every one who begs from you; and of him who takes away your goods do not ask them again. 31 And as you wish that men would do to you, do so to them. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish. 36 Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.

Matthew 5:43-48 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Leviticus 19:9-18 "When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field to its very border, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. 10 And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the LORD your God. 11 "You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another. 12 And you shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. 13 "You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning. 14 You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the LORD. 15 "You shall do no injustice in judgment; you shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. 16 You shall not go up and down as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand forth against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD. 17 "You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason with your neighbor, lest you bear sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

A man (or several people including this man) planned to kill Muslims in New Zealand in the city of Christchurch.
Which seems such an Irony given the name of the city and the motive for the deed.
The motive for the deed appears to be hatred of Muslims
especially brown ones from the middle east and Asia.
The people who planned it appear to be White supremacists who do not want
brown people in countries that they regard as Christian white dominated lands.
That's enough about their motives.
And about their deeds.

The passages above have something to say about how Christians who are in Christ's Church
are to regard others and especially those who might be counted as their enemies.

There are other passages that seem to say otherwise such as

Psalms 137:7-9 Remember, O LORD, against the E'domites the day of Jerusalem, how they said, "Rase it, rase it! Down to its foundations!" 8 O daughter of Babylon, you devastator! Happy shall he be who requites you with what you have done to us! 9 Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!
​

It takes some work to reconcile the passages but it can be done.

Many Christians put the imprecation passages on "the back burner" which is one way of dealing with them.

The passages from the gospels quoted above are a better way, I think, but others may see it differently.

What does Sharia Law prescribe for those who are non-Muslims?

I must say that dragging such a criminal ideological event into Christian Theology discussions is rather sketchy...

Especially when you demonize and slander the motivation of the perpetrator...

And in the process promote your own political agenda...

Which you claim is Christian...

Look, MC - You cannot hold western secular "Christian" cultures to Holy Biblical Standards of Discipleship in Christ...

You cannot criticize them for acting according to secular understandings...

You can do so for monastic communities, but not for secular ones...

You can only blame yourself for your own failure to live a Christian enough life to be a better witness for white supremacists...

I blame myself for everything wrong with the world...

I do not ask the world to blame itself...

We are lousy witnesses to the wonderful Faith of Christ...

Treating Christianity as an ideology with which to blame political enemies is a grave error...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

I must say that dragging such a criminal ideological event into Christian Theology discussions is rather sketchy...

Especially when you demonize and slander the motivation of the perpetrator...

Such a shame. Very sad to see.

The man killed 49 people. They were at prayer in mosques.

How can that be defended as if it were not wicked?

All that can be said is repent. Repent of the sentiment that created the words in the post quoted above.

 

[Arsenios]

The man killed 49 people. They were at prayer in mosques.
How can that be defended as if it were not wicked?

No one is defending the murderer...

Have you prayed for him MC?

Have you shed tears for the salvation of his soul?

Or is this just politics?


Arsenios