Baptism -- Obedience vs Ordinance

[Josiah]

do not be so tangled about what it does not say but rather obey what it DOES say

Thus my question to you (which I hope you'll address): Please quote the Scripture(s) which state: "Thou mayest NOT baptize any unless they have surpassed the age of X." Or.... "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who have not yet made a profession of Christian faith." Where is this prohibition which you insist exists in the statement of Scripture?

NO you did not have that ability

Again, what is in about those under the age of "X" that renders God impotent - unable to bless, unable to give faith?

Scripture states that NO ONE can say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit so empowers. NO ONE. CAN. NO ONE has that ability..... whether such be 5 hours hold, 5 years old, 50 years old or 100 years old. NO ONE. CAN. Whether they have an IQ of 5 or 50 or 500. NO ONE.... CAN. Whether they be male or female, black or white, American or Chinese, rich or poor, Republican or Democrat. NO ONE... CAN. Scripture says that faith is the "gift of God" which means Gods GIVES faith, we don't create it and then give it to God (faith thus being the gift of people), nope, faith is the "gift of GOD" which means it comes from God to us, not us to God.

It is simple obedience

I disagree that's all it is.... pure LAW.... a hoop we gotta jump through. I believe it is a blessing... GOSPEL. I sense we disagree.

Obedience is the evidence of our love for him .

Blessings.... the GOSPEL.... is evidence of God's love for us. For GOD so LOVED the the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life.... NOT for we must be so 0bedient to God that if we jump high enough and long enough, through enough hoops, then we deserve and thus get eternal life.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

Thus my question to you (which I hope you'll address): Please quote the Scripture(s) which state: "Thou mayest NOT baptize any unless they have surpassed the age of X." Or.... "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who have not yet made a profession of Christian faith." Where is this prohibition which you insist exists in the statement of Scripture?






Again, what is in about those under the age of "X" that renders God impotent - unable to bless, unable to give faith?

Scripture states that NO ONE can say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit so empowers. NO ONE. CAN. NO ONE has that ability..... whether such be 5 hours hold, 5 years old, 50 years old or 100 years old. NO ONE. CAN. Whether they have an IQ of 5 or 50 or 500. NO ONE.... CAN. Whether they be male or female, black or white, American or Chinese, rich or poor, Republican or Democrat. NO ONE... CAN. Scripture says that faith is the "gift of God" which means Gods GIVES faith, we don't create it and then give it to God (faith thus being the gift of people), nope, faith is the "gift of GOD" which means it comes from God to us, not us to God.






I disagree that's all it is.... pure LAW.... a hoop we gotta jump through. I believe it is a blessing... GOSPEL. I sense we disagree.






Blessings.... the GOSPEL.... is evidence of God's love for us. For GOD so LOVED the the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life.... NOT for we must be so 0bedient to God that if we jump high enough and long enough, through enough hoops, then we deserve and thus get eternal life.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah

how much more simply can it be presented to you..

the command is to REPENT .. and be baptised ... ..if a person cannot obey the command to repent .. then it would be a falsehood to be baptised , a hypocrisy .
can a baby say ..lord i am a sinner please forgive me and save me from my sin " ? NO .thus a baby cannot be baptised into the death and resurrection of the Lord jesus upon their own Faith .- it does not say your not allowed to baptise them ..it simply means the baptism has no merit towards salvation because it is merely your "works " attempting to save some one else . it is not based upon the child's faith ..but upon your own works . what ever is not of faith , is sin .

one need not be concerned ,for the baby is sanctified by the holy spirit filled parent until they reach the age of understanding, and at that time must repent of their sin and be baptised to be saved .As this is the command of the lord God -the age of understanding is undefined but knowable ..it is usually when they begin to understand the shame of nakedness .. and scream at you if you go in the bathroom haha . then you know it's time to make the gospel very clear to them if you have not already done so .

 

[Josiah]

Thus my question to you (which I hope you'll address): Please quote the Scripture(s) which state: "Thou mayest NOT baptize any unless they have surpassed the age of X." Or.... "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who have not yet made a profession of Christian faith." Where is this prohibition which you insist exists in the statement of Scripture?






Again, what is in about those under the age of "X" that renders God impotent - unable to bless, unable to give faith?

Scripture states that NO ONE can say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit so empowers. NO ONE. CAN. NO ONE has that ability..... whether such be 5 hours hold, 5 years old, 50 years old or 100 years old. NO ONE. CAN. Whether they have an IQ of 5 or 50 or 500. NO ONE.... CAN. Whether they be male or female, black or white, American or Chinese, rich or poor, Republican or Democrat. NO ONE... CAN. Scripture says that faith is the "gift of God" which means Gods GIVES faith, we don't create it and then give it to God (faith thus being the gift of people), nope, faith is the "gift of GOD" which means it comes from God to us, not us to God.






I disagree that's all it is.... pure LAW.... a hoop we gotta jump through. I believe it is a blessing... GOSPEL. I sense we disagree.






Blessings.... the GOSPEL.... is evidence of God's love for us. For GOD so LOVED the the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life.... NOT for we must be so 0bedient to God that if we jump high enough and long enough, through enough hoops, then we deserve and thus get eternal life.



Thank you!


Pax


- Josiah


.

how much more simply can it be presented to you..

the command is to REPENT .. and be baptised ... ..if a person cannot obey the command to repent .. then it would be a falsehood to be baptised , a hypocrisy .

Friend,

1. You did not address ANYTHING in my post to you.

2. The word "kai" in Greek ("and") does not apply order - in Greek anymore than in English. The whole premise is based on a false and wrong understanding of basic grammar.

3. What, pray tell, about not attaining the age of "X" renders God impotent? Unable to bless? Unable to give faith?

4. You claim it is important what God says. Okay. Then please quote God saying, "I canst not bless any human unless they have yet attained the age of X!" Or, "I canst NOT give faith to any unless they have yet attained the age of X!" Or, "I an UNABLE, indeed IMPOTENT in the face of an infant!" Or, "Thou canst NOT baptize one who has yet to attain the age of X!"

5. Where does God say, "One who hath not yet attainedth the age of "X" cannot be blessed by me (I'm rendered impotent by those under that age) but such needeth no divine blessing because such are santifiethed by a 'Spirit Filled' parent who are not rendered impotent by youth as am I." Quote God saying that. And where does God even mention "age of accountability?" In reference to baptism - or anything else for that matter?

6. I agree: the Bible never says we are "allowed" to baptize those under the age of "X" It also doesn't say we may baptize those over that age. Or Americans. Or Japanese. Or those with blonde hair and blue eyes.

7. The BIble says that NO ONE CAN say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit so empowers. NO ONE. It doesn't say, "Those under the age of "X" cannot" it says NO ONE can. Where is this emphasis on attaining the age of X?


Go and make disciples - baptizing and teaching them. Nothing about any "age of accountability." Nothing about God being rendered impotent by those under the age of "X". Nothing about the recipient attaining the age of X.




.

 

[Alithis]

Friend,

1. You did not address ANYTHING in my post to you.

2. The word "kai" in Greek ("and") does not apply order - in Greek anymore than in English. The whole premise is based on a false and wrong understanding of basic grammar.

3. What, pray tell, about not attaining the age of "X" renders God impotent? Unable to bless? Unable to give faith?

4. You claim it is important what God says. Okay. Then please quote God saying, "I canst not bless any human unless they have yet attained the age of X!" Or, "I canst NOT give faith to any unless they have yet attained the age of X!" Or, "I an UNABLE, indeed IMPOTENT in the face of an infant!" Or, "Thou canst NOT baptize one who has yet to attain the age of X!"

5. Where does God say, "One who hath not yet attainedth the age of "X" cannot be blessed by me (I'm rendered impotent by those under that age) but such needeth no divine blessing because such are santifiethed by a 'Spirit Filled' parent who are not rendered impotent by youth as am I." Quote God saying that. And where does God even mention "age of accountability?" In reference to baptism - or anything else for that matter?

6. I agree: the Bible never says we are "allowed" to baptize those under the age of "X" It also doesn't say we may baptize those over that age. Or Americans. Or Japanese. Or those with blonde hair and blue eyes.

7. The BIble says that NO ONE CAN say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit so empowers. NO ONE. It doesn't say, "Those under the age of "X" cannot" it says NO ONE can. Where is this emphasis on attaining the age of X?


Go and make disciples - baptizing and teaching them. Nothing about any "age of accountability." Nothing about God being rendered impotent by those under the age of "X". Nothing about the recipient attaining the age of X.




.

AGAIN - you just wish to argue needlessly about what is NOT in the scripture as if that some how excuses you from what IS in it .. it wont stand as sound before the lord .baptism in water is a willful act of obedience .. not some blessing that falls on a person but an action of obedience we are commanded to do . repent and be baptized Jesus said .. so to say it is some magical blessing and not a command to be obeyed is to infer the lord Jesus did not mean what he said and that is to insinuate he is insincere when he speaks .. yet another thing that needs to be repented of .
no where does the lord instruct us to do or not do what he has not said .. he tells us "if you love me your will obey what i tell you ("my commands") .

you seem to desire to ignore his commands - in favor of following your opinions.. you make null and void the command by your preferred tradition . the lord Jesus warned of this in "mark 7"
the contrast is so obvious .. the lord commands "repent and be baptized " BUT then you say .. i will do something (and defend something ) that is NOT commanded and ignore what is commanded .. and in so doing you walk in absolute disobedience .. the truth is .. you must repent and be baptized .. if you were baptized as a baby then you have not yet obeyed the command , which is to repent and be baptized .. As a baby you did not recognize your need of salvation from your own sin and turn away from your sin and repent and get baptized ..thus, until you do so you remain in disobedience and at enmity with the lord . you must repent of following traditions in order to follow the Lord Jesus because you cannot sere two masters ..your cleaving to one and dishonoring the other .

if you truly are his disciple ..you will obey him . you would not argue to defend traditions for which he gave no precedent in his word .. such traditions are added by men and are thus following man and Not God .

 

[Alithis]

and yet again.. the Gospel is not a automatic blessing but also a directive message to be OBEYED

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.-2Thessalonians

 

[Josiah]

and yet again.. the Gospel is not a automatic blessing but also a directive message to be OBEYED

The Law is obeyed, the Gospel is trusted. Apples and oranges.

Yes, God's BLESSINGS are given. And yes, RESPONDED to - but they can't be responded to UNTIL they are received: thus FIRST comes the blessing, THEN the response.

He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.-2Thessalonians

NO ONE is righteous - no NOT ONE. Paul states he is the CHIEF of sinners, that NOTHING good comes from him - thus, is it your point that Paul thus is now in hell? That ALL OF US will be in hell?

I d0n't agree with a gospel-less Christianity.


.

 

[Josiah]

Friend,

1. You did not address ANYTHING in my post to you.

2. The word "kai" in Greek ("and") does not apply order - in Greek anymore than in English. The whole premise is based on a false and wrong understanding of basic grammar.

3. What, pray tell, about not attaining the age of "X" renders God impotent? Unable to bless? Unable to give faith?

4. You claim it is important what God says. Okay. Then please quote God saying, "I canst not bless any human unless they have yet attained the age of X!" Or, "I canst NOT give faith to any unless they have yet attained the age of X!" Or, "I an UNABLE, indeed IMPOTENT in the face of an infant!" Or, "Thou canst NOT baptize one who has yet to attain the age of X!"

5. Where does God say, "One who hath not yet attainedth the age of "X" cannot be blessed by me (I'm rendered impotent by those under that age) but such needeth no divine blessing because such are santifiethed by a 'Spirit Filled' parent who are not rendered impotent by youth as am I." Quote God saying that. And where does God even mention "age of accountability?" In reference to baptism - or anything else for that matter?

6. I agree: the Bible never says we are "allowed" to baptize those under the age of "X" It also doesn't say we may baptize those over that age. Or Americans. Or Japanese. Or those with blonde hair and blue eyes.

7. The BIble says that NO ONE CAN say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit so empowers. NO ONE. It doesn't say, "Those under the age of "X" cannot" it says NO ONE can. Where is this emphasis on attaining the age of X?


Go and make disciples - baptizing and teaching them. Nothing about any "age of accountability." Nothing about God being rendered impotent by those under the age of "X". Nothing about the recipient attaining the age of X.


.

AGAIN - you just wish to argue needlessly about what is NOT in the scripture as if that some how excuses you from what IS in it ..

Friend,

You ignored EVERYTHING I posted to you....

So, what is relevant is what Scripture SAYS. Okay.... Quote God SAYING the following...

"Thou canst NOT baptize any who have yet to attain the age of X"
"I am rendered IMPOTENT by those under the age of X and thus CANNOT bless them or give them faith."
"Those under the age of X and/or under the AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY are sanctified by SPIRIT-FILLED parents and not by Christ or by me."

Quote where Jesus SAID what you claim - that will help.


Again, yes - Scripture says "repent and believe" but again, the word "kai" (and) does not mandate order (in English or in Greek), your whole premise is based on wrong grammar. And since a nonbeliever cannot repent, it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to repent BEFORE they believe. And again, I do not agree that "belief" is something WE give to God rather than God giving it to us (here again, you seem to have things backwards).

As a baby you did not recognize your need of salvation from your own sin and turn away from your sin and repent and get baptized ..

Quote Jesus stating, "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who does not recognize his/her need for salvation." "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who has not become sinless." "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who has not previously repented of their sin." Right after you quote Him stating: "I canst NOT bless any who have not yet attained the age of X." "I am rendered impotent by those under the age of X." "Those under the specific AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY are not sanctified by God but by their SPIRIT FILLED parents"

I reject your premise that we are to follow some EXAMPLES (Tradition) in Scripture in lieu of the TEACHINGS of Scripture (but then I'm Protestant.... this was a HUGE point in the Reformation), you seem to cling to some mystical traditions never taught in Scripture (until you can supply the quotes requested). But I think our major disagreement is you seem to hold to a gospel-less Christianity where it's all Law, all obedence, all ME.... a stance that only leads to hell.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

Friend,

You ignored EVERYTHING I posted to you....

So, what is relevant is what Scripture SAYS. Okay.... Quote God SAYING the following...

"Thou canst NOT baptize any who have yet to attain the age of X"
"I am rendered IMPOTENT by those under the age of X and thus CANNOT bless them or give them faith."
"Those under the age of X and/or under the AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY are sanctified by SPIRIT-FILLED parents and not by Christ or by me."

Quote where Jesus SAID what you claim - that will help.


Again, yes - Scripture says "repent and believe" but again, the word "kai" (and) does not mandate order (in English or in Greek), your whole premise is based on wrong grammar. And since a nonbeliever cannot repent, it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to repent BEFORE they believe. And again, I do not agree that "belief" is something WE give to God rather than God giving it to us (here again, you seem to have things backwards).






Quote Jesus stating, "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who does not recognize his/her need for salvation." "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who has not become sinless." "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who has not previously repented of their sin." Right after you quote Him stating: "I canst NOT bless any who have not yet attained the age of X." "I am rendered impotent by those under the age of X." "Those under the specific AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY are not sanctified by God but by their SPIRIT FILLED parents"

I reject your premise that we are to follow some EXAMPLES (Tradition) in Scripture in lieu of the TEACHINGS of Scripture (but then I'm Protestant.... this was a HUGE point in the Reformation), you seem to cling to some mystical traditions never taught in Scripture (until you can supply the quotes requested). But I think our major disagreement is you seem to hold to a gospel-less Christianity where it's all Law, all obedence, all ME.... a stance that only leads to hell.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

you may say i ignore what "you " are saying .. because you are saying nothing from the scriptures . so i will say .. you are ignoring the word of God in order to overlay what "you" are saying .

then, you agree on one hand that it is what the scripture says that is relevant - then immediately go back to asking what the scripture does not say ?? make up your mind are you a person who desires to follow what the lord JEsus says ..or a person who desires to add to what he says and follow that instead .. whom do you really desire to serve .. god or the flesh .?

your own words contradict yourself you say" 7. The BIble says that NO ONE CAN say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit so empowers. NO ONE. It doesn't say, "Those under the age of "X" cannot" it says NO ONE can. Where is this emphasis on attaining the age of X?... have you heard a 6 month old confess that Jesus is lord ? nope! therefore the spirit of the lord has not yet empowered them to do so,thus neither can they repent .. thus they cannot be baptised on their own faith . as i already said .. the bible does not say you are not allowed to baptise them .. but it does say .. to be saved "you" must repent .. no one can repent on your behalf .

so if you have not yet obeyed the lord jesus ,repented and then continues to obey him by being baptised on your own faith .. then your walking in disobedience .
do you not love him ? do you not desire to do what he says and so prove that you love him .. ? did he not say .. if you love me you will do what i command " ? he did indeed .

you need to cease arguing against the simple clear direct commands of the lord jesus .. repent , be baptised for the remission of sin and you shall receive the Holy Ghost .

 

[Josiah]

Friend,

You ignored EVERYTHING I posted to you....

So, what is relevant is what Scripture SAYS. Okay.... Quote God SAYING the following...

"Thou canst NOT baptize any who have yet to attain the age of X"
"I am rendered IMPOTENT by those under the age of X and thus CANNOT bless them or give them faith."
"Those under the age of X and/or under the AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY are sanctified by SPIRIT-FILLED parents and not by Christ or by me."

Quote where Jesus SAID what you claim - that will help.


Again, yes - Scripture says "repent and believe" but again, the word "kai" (and) does not mandate order (in English or in Greek), your whole premise is based on wrong grammar. And since a nonbeliever cannot repent, it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to repent BEFORE they believe. And again, I do not agree that "belief" is something WE give to God rather than God giving it to us (here again, you seem to have things backwards).






Quote Jesus stating, "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who does not recognize his/her need for salvation." "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who has not become sinless." "Thou art forbidden to baptize any who has not previously repented of their sin." Right after you quote Him stating: "I canst NOT bless any who have not yet attained the age of X." "I am rendered impotent by those under the age of X." "Those under the specific AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY are not sanctified by God but by their SPIRIT FILLED parents"

I reject your premise that we are to follow some EXAMPLES (Tradition) in Scripture in lieu of the TEACHINGS of Scripture (but then I'm Protestant.... this was a HUGE point in the Reformation), you seem to cling to some mystical traditions never taught in Scripture (until you can supply the quotes requested). But I think our major disagreement is you seem to hold to a gospel-less Christianity where it's all Law, all obedence, all ME.... a stance that only leads to hell.



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah


.

you agree on one hand that it is what the scripture says that is relevant - then immediately go back to asking what the scripture does not say ??

Friend,

You consistently ignore everything written to you (not the way to have a conversation).

Since YOU insist what matters is what Scripture SAYS, I continue to wonder why you won't quote Scripture stating what you are. I've repeatedly asked for the quotes... you've persistenly refused to provide them. All you seem to offer is the singular verse about "repent AND be baptized" (it SEEMS to suggest some order is implied - which, as we all know, it's not).

You MAY know the law.... I'm just unaware that you know anything of the Gospel. You seem to believe Christianity is all about you... whereas I believe it's about Christ: this, our disagreement, I suspect.

Go back and read my posts to you.... note the requested Scriptural quotes. If you provide them - I think we have some basis for discussion. Otherwise, all we have is your opinions and tradition with nothing from Scripture (or anywhere else but you) to support such.... and a LOT of emphasis on law with NONE on the Gospel (even it seems condemning Paul and ALL to hell).

1.....

2....

3...

4...

5...

6...

7. The BIble says that NO ONE CAN say "Jesus is Lord" unless the Holy Spirit so empowers. NO ONE. It doesn't say, "Those under the age of "X" cannot" it says NO ONE can. Where is this emphasis on attaining the age of X?[/I]... have you heard a 6 month old confess that Jesus is lord ? nope! therefore the spirit of the lord has not yet empowered them to do so,thus neither can they repent .. thus they cannot be baptised on their own faith . as i already said .. the bible does not say you are not allowed to baptise them .. but it does say .. to be saved "you" must repent .. no one can repent on your behalf .


.

you need to cease arguing against the simple clear direct commands of the lord jesus .. repent , be baptised for the remission of sin and you shall receive the Holy Ghost .

No. You are just ignoring very basic, elementary grammar, TRYING to make a point Jesus never did. As we all know, the word "and" (kai in Greek here) does not mandate (or even imply) order. Your whole premise on this is wrong, false.



Thank you.


- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

Friend,

You consistently ignore everything written to you (not the way to have a conversation).

Since YOU insist what matters is what Scripture SAYS, I continue to wonder why you won't quote Scripture stating what you are. I've repeatedly asked for the quotes... you've persistenly refused to provide them. All you seem to offer is the singular verse about "repent AND be baptized" (it SEEMS to suggest some order is implied - which, as we all know, it's not).

You MAY know the law.... I'm just unaware that you know anything of the Gospel. You seem to believe Christianity is all about you... whereas I believe it's about Christ: this, our disagreement, I suspect.

Go back and read my posts to you.... note the requested Scriptural quotes. If you provide them - I think we have some basis for discussion. Otherwise, all we have is your opinions and tradition with nothing from Scripture (or anywhere else but you) to support such.... and a LOT of emphasis on law with NONE on the Gospel (even it seems condemning Paul and ALL to hell).






No. You are just ignoring very basic, elementary grammar, TRYING to make a point Jesus never did. As we all know, the word "and" (kai in Greek here) does not mandate (or even imply) order. Your whole premise on this is wrong, false.



Thank you.


- Josiah

i wont be drawn into the futility of arguing about what is NOT written ..it is far more important to obey what IS written .. always the best place to start . those who are concerned with what is NOT written are simply avoiding what IS written ... what IS written .. i repeat YET AGAIN .. 4th time i think . that a person must believe , repent and then be baptised ..
if you are able to do all this then baptism is on your own faith and is valid . we cannot repent on someone else's faith . a baby cannot make a conscience decision to repent thus cannot make the same conscious decision to obey and be baptised .. ..

so if you truly love the lord Jesus and have not yet been baptised you will prove your love for him by obedience and go do it .. not argue against his word .
so if you haven't done so - you best get baptized in water and be buried into his death that you may also be raised up in his resurrection - he has commanded it .

 

[Josiah]

i wont be drawn into the futility of arguing about what is NOT written ..it is far more important to obey what IS written .. always the best place to start .

then start with giving the reference for each of the following quotes:

"Thou art forbidden from baptizing those who have not yet attained the age of X."
"Those who have not yet attained the age of X are sanctified not by God but by their Spirit Filled parents."
"Those who have not yet attained the age of accountability are not to be baptized."
"God is rendered impotent by those who have not yet attained the age of X and thus cannot bless them or give them faith."

You claim you care about what God says, not what you say or what tradition you hold to ... but all you've shared is what you say and the tradition you hold to.... NOTHING yet from God. The best we've gotten is a statement "Repent and be baptized" which you have chosen to hold to a false and wrong embrace of grammar by insisting that the connector "and" mandates order - a premise you have not supported because of course it's wrong (and silly). You can't find ANYTHING from God to support your tradition and opinion, just repeating your opinion and affirming the embrace of your tradition - with NOTHING from Scripture or God to affirm either.

i repeat YET AGAIN .. 4th time i think . that a person must believe , repent and then be baptised ..

Yes, YOU say that.... yes, you hold to that recent human tradition... we all know that. But then you insist what YOU think, what tradition YOU embrace is irrelevant, what matters is what GOD says. Odd, because you've ignored every request to show that God says what you do, that God affirms your new tradition: in fact, your persistent refusal to show that indicates to me perhaps you realize God says no such thing - it's YOU.

YOU inserted the word "then." God never said that (as you know; as we all know). YOU are simply inserting YOUR view into what God said (rude, actually..... desperate, obviously). GOD said, "Repent and be baptized." And as we all know, "and" does not remotely mandate order (it doesn't even remotely imply it). So, not willing to accept what GOD said, you just changed it (takes a lot of gull), which proves to all that you do not accept what GOD says - in fact, you will CHANGE what God said so that God is changed to agree with you, God subject to YOUR view.





- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

What the symbolic meaning of baptism? It is showing an inward change with an outward sign. I dont see how babies or other s that are not able to even know what bthat means bcan be baptized and anything other than they got wet be derived from it. I love the ordinance of captism and believe that every believer needs to do it but I just cant see any reason for infant baptism or even baptism before a choice can be made for Christ

 

[Alithis]

then start with giving the reference for each of the following quotes:

"Thou art forbidden from baptizing those who have not yet attained the age of X."
"Those who have not yet attained the age of X are sanctified not by God but by their Spirit Filled parents."
"Those who have not yet attained the age of accountability are not to be baptized."
"God is rendered impotent by those who have not yet attained the age of X and thus cannot bless them or give them faith."

You claim you care about what God says, not what you say or what tradition you hold to ... but all you've shared is what you say and the tradition you hold to.... NOTHING yet from God. The best we've gotten is a statement "Repent and be baptized" which you have chosen to hold to a false and wrong embrace of grammar by insisting that the connector "and" mandates order - a premise you have not supported because of course it's wrong (and silly). You can't find ANYTHING from God to support your tradition and opinion, just repeating your opinion and affirming the embrace of your tradition - with NOTHING from Scripture or God to affirm either.






Yes, YOU say that.... yes, you hold to that recent human tradition... we all know that. But then you insist what YOU think, what tradition YOU embrace is irrelevant, what matters is what GOD says. Odd, because you've ignored every request to show that God says what you do, that God affirms your new tradition: in fact, your persistent refusal to show that indicates to me perhaps you realize God says no such thing - it's YOU.

YOU inserted the word "then." God never said that (as you know; as we all know). YOU are simply inserting YOUR view into what God said (rude, actually..... desperate, obviously). GOD said, "Repent and be baptized." And as we all know, "and" does not remotely mandate order (it doesn't even remotely imply it). So, not willing to accept what GOD said, you just changed it (takes a lot of gull), which proves to all that you do not accept what GOD says - in fact, you will CHANGE what God said so that God is changed to agree with you, God subject to YOUR view.


- Josiah

your a funny guy
i inserted the word "then" for emphasis ... one does not repent and suddenly get submerged in waters of baptism .. one must come down from his carriage and go down into the water and get baptized . remember the ethiopian in the book of acts ?.. your playing silly word games .

and you have quoted yourself in these statements-
Thou art forbidden from baptizing those who have not yet attained the age of X."
"Those who have not yet attained the age of X are sanctified not by God but by their Spirit Filled parents."
"Those who have not yet attained the age of accountability are not to be baptized."
"God is rendered impotent by those who have not yet attained the age of X and thus cannot bless them or give them faith."

so being consistent with sticking to what IS written could you -please then display where the scripture says to baptize a baby "without repentance "...? no you cant .

baptism in water is an act of willful obedience . a resulting action of a repentant heart .
read your bible and cease from beligerence.

 

[Josiah]

...then start with giving the reference for each of the following quotes:

"Thou art forbidden from baptizing those who have not yet attained the age of X."
"Those who have not yet attained the age of X are sanctified not by God but by their Spirit Filled parents."
"Those who have not yet attained the age of accountability are not to be baptized."
"God is rendered impotent by those who have not yet attained the age of X and thus cannot bless them or give them faith."


You claim you care about what God says, not what you say or what tradition you hold to ... but all you've shared is what you say and the tradition you hold to.... NOTHING yet from God. The best we've gotten is a statement "Repent and be baptized" which you have chosen to hold to a false and wrong embrace of grammar by insisting that the connector "and" mandates order - a premise you have not supported because of course it's wrong (and silly). You can't find ANYTHING from God to support your tradition and opinion, just repeating your opinion and affirming the embrace of your tradition - with NOTHING from Scripture or God to affirm either.






Yes, YOU say that.... yes, you hold to that recent human tradition... we all know that. But then you insist what YOU think, what tradition YOU embrace is irrelevant, what matters is what GOD says. Odd, because you've ignored every request to show that God says what you do, that God affirms your new tradition: in fact, your persistent refusal to show that indicates to me perhaps you realize God says no such thing - it's YOU.


YOU inserted the word "then." God never said that (as you know; as we all know). YOU are simply inserting YOUR view into what God said (rude, actually..... desperate, obviously). GOD said, "Repent and be baptized." And as we all know, "and" does not remotely mandate order (it doesn't even remotely imply it). So, not willing to accept what GOD said, you just changed it (takes a lot of gull), which proves to all that you do not accept what GOD says - in fact, you will CHANGE what God said so that God is changed to agree with you, God subject to YOUR view.


- Josiah


.

i inserted the word "then"

... as I noted. So it's YOUR word, not God's... it's YOUR view, not God's. You simply changed what God said so that God would be subject to you. So much for your emphasis that what YOU think is irrelevant, only what God says. You admit you CHANGED what God said (so that He'd agree with you)... amazing.

so being consistent with sticking to what IS written could you -please then display where the scripture says to baptize a baby "without repentance "...? no you cant .

.... so "sticking to what is written" applies to all but you?

I never said Scripture states, Babies must be baptized." Nice try (it's a debate technique of desperation called "turning the tables") but of course, I never said that. But then I'm not the one restricting God's command and blessing - you are.

baptism in water is an act of willful obedience . a resulting action of a repentant heart .
read your bible and cease from beligerence.

Again, YOUR opinion.... YOUR tradition... with nothing, absolutely nothing, nada, zip, from God. There goes your emphasis that what you or I think/say is irrelevent, only what GOD said. So, quote God saying: "Baptism in water is an act of willful obedience" (by WHOM - yes, I note how you eluded that)? You can't.... because God never said that. Nor ANY of the other views you keep repeating.... I keep asking you to quote God saying what you are but you keep evading it (perhaps you KNOW God didn't say what you are saying).



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

Matthew 28:19-20 shows that there order that some people think needs to happen (for those against infant baptism) is not correct.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

In that verse, Jesus tells the disciples how they are to make disciples, by baptizing and teaching. Those two go hand in hand.