Are NDEs evidence of the soul?

[Edward429451]

Oh but I have also heard stories that they saw their body laying there and saw them trying to bring them back to life. Suppose they put for instance a red pot there and then bring em elsewhere, they can later ask what they saw and check.

But God don't work that way. The one who dies and has the NDE experience has his own personal proof, he was there! But none for us, we have to Believe in Faith!

I remember hearing one NDE where the guy was on the floor and not floating above the bed. He saw one of the surgeons had on mis matched socks and he reported that and when they asked the doctor if he wore mismatched socks, he admitted that he did!

 

[Edward429451]

There was a boy who saw things he couldn't know, that his mother had a miscarriage and he saw that one. Maybe it was this one:

I seen that one. That was Colton Burpo, the Pastors son and he met his sister in heaven! I believe his testimony. He has a new video out, he's all grown up now!

 

[SetFree]

I believe that a lot of them are real. We have the clues we need. But no one brings back proof, and that's in line with what God is doing, we must accept Him in Faith, so the only one that gets proof is the person who has the NDE.

True. And that's like an experience I had with another person whom I'd never met before. The experience was proof of God for us both, but others would have had to just believe it happened.

On my way to work one day, I stopped in to buy a soda. I'd never been in that market before. I stood in line waiting to check out. When I got to the check out counter, with folks waiting behind me, the guy at the cash register looked up at me and started asking me Bible questions out of the blue. So I moved to the side, asked him for a piece of paper, and I wrote down the Bible Chapters where he could find the answers he was looking for. I then grabbed my soda and left for work.

I went back that same week, and asked the guy if he knew me, or had ever seen me before, and he said no, that that was the first time he had ever met me. I then asked him why he thought he could just look at me, and ask me Bible questions out of the blue? How would he even know whether I had even read The Bible? (At that time I was still in the Holy Spirit unction of doing deeper Bible study in all The Bible). The guy said he was having problems understanding about those Bible topics he asked me about, and he had prayed about it. He said he knew that God had sent me.

That experience he and I could never deny happened to us. Others would have to either believe it or not, but he and I could not reject God working in that way to answer the guy's prayers.

 

[Edward429451]

True. And that's like an experience I had with another person whom I'd never met before. The experience was proof of God for us both, but others would have had to just believe it happened.

On my way to work one day, I stopped in to buy a soda. I'd never been in that market before. I stood in line waiting to check out. When I got to the check out counter, with folks waiting behind me, the guy at the cash register looked up at me and started asking me Bible questions out of the blue. So I moved to the side, asked him for a piece of paper, and I wrote down the Bible Chapters where he could find the answers he was looking for. I then grabbed my soda and left for work.

I went back that same week, and asked the guy if he knew me, or had ever seen me before, and he said no, that that was the first time he had ever met me. I then asked him why he thought he could just look at me, and ask me Bible questions out of the blue? How would he even know whether I had even read The Bible? (At that time I was still in the Holy Spirit unction of doing deeper Bible study in all The Bible). The guy said he was having problems understanding about those Bible topics he asked me about, and he had prayed about it. He said he knew that God had sent me.

That experience he and I could never deny happened to us. Others would have to either believe it or not, but he and I could not reject God working in that way to answer the guy's prayers.

That's a good testimony and I believe every word of it because that's how God works, I've seen it before myself. T=What happened to you and that other man is just how God does things. I have a somewhat similar thing that happened to me. God did two miracles for for me in the same day. One I asked for in prayer, it was after my auto accident so my new truck was totaled and I was all busted up from the accident, broke my back in two spots. And I Know that God saved me in that accident so I of course re-devoted myself to the Lord. And I got up one day and did my reading and praying and it came to me that, I'm not foing anything to help the Lord and His Kingdom. I only read and pray. SO I prayed about that and said, Lord I want to help, but I am busted up and cant walk far and have a junky truck now which is unreliable...but I want to help and be a profitable servant for the Kingdom, so could you give me some way to help that I can do from my easy chair? (!!!) And I kid you not, 30 seconds after I said my Amens, the phone rang so I answered it and it was a friend that I hadn't seen in two years and he says, Hey Ed long time no see...uhh, you know about God, right? Would you mind if I came over to visit and picked your brain about God?! So I said yes and I immediately realized that God had answered my prayer!

So I went upstairs from the family room to put on a pot of coffee and had forgot that I just made my last 1/2 pot and I am out of coffee. And I felt bad because I couldn't even serve the man a cup of coffee?! So my instinct was to pray right then. I didn't have any money. I was self employed and all usted up so I wasnt working almost at all. But before I prayed, those scriptures popped into my head, Don't worry about what you will eat, drink or wear for the Lord knows your needs before you even ask for them...so I thought, ok, so I don't have to pray abbout it. So I didn't pray and just put it out of my mind.

Knock knock in less than 30 ,inutes, my friend was there at the door. I had just finished drinking the last cup of coffee, it was time to make a pot, but I had none. And the first thing my friend did when I opened the door was to hand me a 2LB bag of Gourmet Hawaiian coffee beans (!!) and he said, I brought you a present, I know you like coffee...
He did not know that I was out of coffee! I instantly knew that this could only be God that did this thing! He answered the prayer that I did not pray in less than 30 minutes! Why would He do that? and it struck me. I had thought about what His word says and acted on that, believing His word, that it's not something I have to worry about so when I chose to stand on the Word in faith, the Lord responded to that! And so answered that prayer that was not prayed!

Can you grasp the significance of what happened to me? The Creator of the Universe, Almighty God, had coffee delivered to my house! Literally, and who am I? I am nobody!
That's my God!!

 

[SetFree]

That's a good testimony and I believe every word of it because that's how God works, I've seen it before myself. T=What happened to you and that other man is just how God does things. I have a somewhat similar thing that happened to me. God did two miracles for for me in the same day. One I asked for in prayer, it was after my auto accident so my new truck was totaled and I was all busted up from the accident, broke my back in two spots. And I Know that God saved me in that accident so I of course re-devoted myself to the Lord. And I got up one day and did my reading and praying and it came to me that, I'm not foing anything to help the Lord and His Kingdom. I only read and pray. SO I prayed about that and said, Lord I want to help, but I am busted up and cant walk far and have a junky truck now which is unreliable...but I want to help and be a profitable servant for the Kingdom, so could you give me some way to help that I can do from my easy chair? (!!!) And I kid you not, 30 seconds after I said my Amens, the phone rang so I answered it and it was a friend that I hadn't seen in two years and he says, Hey Ed long time no see...uhh, you know about God, right? Would you mind if I came over to visit and picked your brain about God?! So I said yes and I immediately realized that God had answered my prayer!

....

And that's the thing these kind of examples of God's work in the lives of His servants exemplifies. If the believer will put theirself out there to God, asking Him to use them in some way to serve Him, He will give you tasks to do for Him.

My greatest fear is not recognizing when He is wanting me to do something, or not recognizing when He... has already done something in my life to help me and mine.

 

[Edward429451]

And that's the thing these kind of examples of God's work in the lives of His servants exemplifies. If the believer will put theirself out there to God, asking Him to use them in some way to serve Him, He will give you tasks to do for Him.

My greatest fear is not recognizing when He is wanting me to do something, or not recognizing when He... has already done something in my life to help me and mine.

I see a lot of unbelief in many Christian circles. God don't talk to people, Miracles stopped with the Apostles and all sorts of unbelief.

It doesn't take much faith. Scripture says faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, so it isn't a lack of faith. It's Unbelief. Even Jesus could not do many miracles in His home town because of their unbelief. They all knew Jesus as Mary & Joseph's kid.

If you think about it, for us who are born again, we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit which has all of the same resurrection power that raised Jesus from the dead...living inside of us. If we believe that, then we will live that and act on that. instead of staying in unbelief and not giving space to the miracle. Then we go from faith to faith and acting on that faith and placing a circumstance into God's hands constitutes belief. (In the original language, it is a verb, an action word which indicates an action in the flesh taking place. So we have to try. When we step out in faith with belief, then the ball is back in the Lord's court (!) and He will respond to that, if it is within God's acceptable will for you.

It might be easier to dismiss those aspects of the Lord and us as believers than to walk in it. But, the Lord died for us publicly so who are we to say we believe privately? That don't seem right. So everybody go lay hands on someone today, and believe...

 

[Lamb]

And that's the thing these kind of examples of God's work in the lives of His servants exemplifies. If the believer will put theirself out there to God, asking Him to use them in some way to serve Him, He will give you tasks to do for Him.

My greatest fear is not recognizing when He is wanting me to do something, or not recognizing when He... has already done something in my life to help me and mine.

God's will...will be done. We see that when we look at Jonah and how Jonah wanted his will to be done, but ultimately, it was God's. God works through us even when we struggle against Him.

 

[torial]

http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2015/01/trust-peoples-near-death-experiences/#more-16480

I found the article very interesting especially in light of some of our conversations here on this site so I'm hoping Mark chimes in on this.

I personally don't think that Near Death Experiences (or NDE) are proof of anything. I distrust people who make claims that they died and went to heaven. The little boy who recently retracted his statement, you know the one, the family who wrote a book and made money off it? People lie all the time. Why should I believe them?

Not replying to the article, but I have followed Gary Habermas on a few topics including NDE, he is IIRC on a review committee for an academic paper on NDEs, so he has a lot of exposure to well documented cases that we don't have. In particular, he had a criteria for ascertaining what you could extract from an NDE -- and he viewed the stuff where people saw things they shouldn't have been able to to be the primary verifiable factor. When the got into the spiritual, he considered that non-verifiable.

For example, he tells of a person having an NDE that saw the serial number on a beam (the serial number was on the top of the beam and not visible from below), and a janitor confirmed that was the serial number of the beam. What does this tell us, that we have a soul or spirit that operates outside of the life of the body.

I personally think there is a lot of evidence of NDEs, and this in turn confirms in part the supernatural nature of reality [in so much as it is revealed with our essence].

 

[Maranatha]

For example, he tells of a person having an NDE that saw the serial number on a beam (the serial number was on the top of the beam and not visible from below), and a janitor confirmed that was the serial number of the beam

Here are some very important warnings:

Fortune tellers, also known as diviners or soothsayers, are individuals who claim to predict future events or reveal hidden knowledge through various means such as astrology, tarot cards, crystal balls, or other occult practices. The practice of fortune telling is addressed in several passages throughout the Bible, where it is consistently condemned and associated with paganism and idolatry.

In Acts 16:16-18 , the Apostle Paul encounters a slave girl possessed by a spirit of divination. She earns a great deal of money for her owners by fortune telling. Paul, recognizing the spirit as demonic, commands it to leave her in the name of Jesus Christ, and she is freed from its influence.
(biblehub.com Fortune Tellers)

The Bible strongly condemns spiritism, mediums, the occult, and psychics (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). Horoscopes, tarot cards, astrology, fortune tellers, palm readings, and séances fall into this category as well. (gotquestions.org)

 

[Frankj]

For example, he tells of a person having an NDE that saw the serial number on a beam (the serial number was on the top of the beam and not visible from below), and a janitor confirmed that was the serial number of the beam

Whenever I read such as this I always look for the documentation and how it was obtained.

So who was the person, where was the beam, what janitor confirmed it and how, and are they not only real persons but still alive to confirm they did what they are said to have done?

Also I might pint out that these are Near death experiences,, not death experiences.

 

[torial]

Frankj - I do not have the source information -- I have the retelling (by video) of the information by a person who a) has a plausible reason to have such information [ie the journal he works for], b) has a pattern of integrity. I suspect that if you wanted the information, you'd have to search the journal archives.

Maranatha - I agree that other supernatural things can be involved in these situations --- and certainly many people who study NDEs warn about that scenario [well, at least the ones I regard]. In any case, it still stands as a refutation of scientific materialism that is anti-supernatural.

 

[Frankj]

Frankj - I do not have the source information -- I have the retelling (by video) of the information by a person who a) has a plausible reason to have such information [ie the journal he works for], b) has a pattern of integrity. I suspect that if you wanted the information, you'd have to search the journal archives.

Maranatha - I agree that other supernatural things can be involved in these situations --- and certainly many people who study NDEs warn about that scenario [well, at least the ones I regard]. In any case, it still stands as a refutation of scientific materialism that is anti-supernatural.

That's the usual situation on things like this.

FWIW, have you ever noticed that different NDE's are almost all different, they purport to describe the after life but don't describe the same thing, and often things which are in conflict with each other.

 

[torial]

Re: Habermas and reliability -- Habermas is also working on a scholarly journal for Turin Shroud research. My middle son (in a Bible college, and a detailed researcher, he's working on a book on the Trinity in his spare time for example) spent a lot of time checking the actual research on Turin Shroud claims -- from talking w/ him (as he was very thorough and was looking for original sources, as opposed to 2nd hand sources) Habermas' claims about the Turin Shroud are very much representative of the research out there. So that is why I say he has a pattern of integrity (which makes me inclined to believe him).

I agree that NDEs can have conflict with each other -- I would add this is why Habermas is very careful to only focus on the experiences as much as they interface with the natural world and can be verified.

Personally, the ones I find most interesting are the accounts of Muslims and Hindus who encounter Jesus in the afterlife, and then become Christians. Also, accounts of hellish encounters seem to wake people up to change course [ie a number have reportedly becomes pastors or missionaries]. I view that as the mercy of God in those particular cases.

Do I think evil spirits will also hijack some NDEs? Absolutely.

 

[Ghost]

I'm not 100% sure, but am open to it. If our physical world is more of an interpretation of what is, then there would be more available to the soul than to our eyes or senses. Some people believe that our physical world comes down to a phenomenon called quantum probability collapse. If stimulus in the universe can have multiple states or outcomes for its energy, then a physical state could be the most likely representation of that energy.

Our eyes for example will take in data and form assumptions. This is also why you may be able to udnertsand ecah wrod in tihs snetnece eevn thuogh I hvae scarmlbed the lteters in msot wrods.

You may also know of the scenario where you see something and you KNOW it is Thing A, but when you look again at the details, it is different. Our eyes take in data, and our brain normalizes this to the most likely outcome, on its own. This is why my incorrect spelling is not as obvious. Your brain reads the scrambled letters of my bold sentence above, and assumes it is words it already knows. Our brains do this with shadows, shapes, etc.

So, when thinking of near death experiences, we can consider that perhaps death is only a physical outcome and the soul lives on. Once we can accept that we're able to normalize data into an assumed physical state (eyes/brains examples), we can possibly also accept that anything physical is just an assumed state of what truly is, therefor death may not be an end in entirety, but only an end to what is physically observed.

I didn't always think this way, but lately I've been thinking that our universe is a case of mind over matter, and if we pay too much attention to matter, we may lose sight of what we can do in our mind. Perhaps this is why we're told to let go of material possessions, to live in the moment, to love all, and to be mindful. If Jesus' or anyone's goal is for us to realize our true potential, than any recognition of what's physical is an obstacle, including the material possession of our own bodies. Letting go of the concept of death can bring life, either literally or figuratively in how we choose to live.

I haven't had an NDE, so I do not know the true answer for myself let alone anyone else.
I have had experiences that lead me to believe there is more to this universe than meets the eye.

 

[Frankj]

I have had experiences that lead me to believe there is more to this universe than meets the eye.

Of course there is, we are designed with our ability to understand the universe in relation to our limited senses no matter how we try to extend them past their designed capabilities they still have to be understood in terms of our senses to have any meaning.

 

[Ghost]

Of course there is, we are designed with our ability to understand the universe in relation to our limited senses no matter how we try to extend them past their designed capabilities they still have to be understood in terms of our senses to have any meaning.

Agreed, absolutely.

This next mini story is part of a larger story of mine that I hope to share in the future. There was a profound moment after I spent time looking up, both with my eyes closed and open at times, asking for guidance. This specific night stands out from the many other nights spent doing the same because of an overwhelming feeling and thought that entered my mind.

Specifically, I asked and received a message of oneness. That we are all one, and one is all. That the universe is full of love, and that we can feel this and engage in this global "network" if open to it.

So, when I think of the human experience with a start and an end, it is only one fragment of what is much more. Within the oneness, we are separate, but only in body and conscious thought. I believe in the underlying truth that we all share this experience, but our senses obscure this under the guise of revealing the truth. To a certain degree, we must ignore what we see to truly see.

I cannot quite explain the true feeling of the message. It's one thing to say we are all one. I had said it before that night too. However on that night, it felt different. It was like I was questioning it, asking for a feeling or message, and the truth of us all being one was provided. It felt far different than me consciously "thinking" that we are all one. It was in that moment and onwards that I felt and knew the oneness to be true.

At the time I wasn't as clear on what it meant for me, but i knew what I had felt was different than what I had thought previously. Even though I wasn't as open then as i am now, I felt the need to call my mother and tell her exactly how I felt in that moment, what happened, etc. Even then I knew it was profoundly unique from what I had experienced before.