"Apocrypha" & The Gospel: Comparison Study #01

[Josiah]

Is it not obvious?

It IS obvious. You have nothing.... no substantiation whatsoever.

Lamm asked if you have any data for your claim. You offered NOTHING. And I think it IS obvious why you offered nothing.


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[Josiah]

we have a lot of Christians don't we?

@Andy
@Lamb

Yes. About 2.2 to 2.5 billion.

A LOT, a LOT more than those known to you. A LOT more than live in the USA.

The Catholics in the south go to Church

... are a TINY, TINY, TINY percentage of Catholics (there's over 1 BILLION of them). How many of them are known to you?

And the Protestants who live "in the Southern USA" are a tiny, very tiny, percentage of the Protestants even currently in the world.

and may own a bible but they really don't read them because when I start bringing up God and Scripture they get excited when I tell them some of the stories. My dad grew up Catholic and everything he says I have to correct him on it.
My cowarkers from past jobs who are Christians came to me for questions about the Bible.
The old testament is a TOUGH read for beginners, probably why new Converts who heard the good news were advised to read the Ecclesiasticals!

It may be that among the say 100 Christians known to you... with whom you've discussed these things... it could be that all 100 out of 2,200,000,000 are like that. I would not challenge your observation. Do the math: What percentage is 100 out of 2.2 - 2.5 Billion. I know. Do you?

Now, my question is: How does that prove your comments about "Lutherans" and "Protestants?" There are about 70 million Lutherans, you now admit you know none, not one, not even one of them. Do you know the percentage of 0 out of 70,000,000 is? I do. Do you? There are 800,000,000 Protestants in the world, how many of those have you discussed this issue with? Yet you speak of Christians.... Catholics... Protestants.... Lutherans....

no I don't have DATA

... then maybe you shouldn't go around making these many, many, remarkable, stunning, sweeping, condemning declarations about things and Christian brothers when you now ADMIT you can't substantiate them as true? Does truth matter? Think about that.


THIS has been the entire issue for many of us: Origen, Albion, Lanman, atpollard and others.... These HUGE, sweeping, remarkable, often shocking claims you've made... and your REFUSAL to substantiate them. Even when they are aimed at one of us! You have several out there about me... still, NOTHING to show your claim has an ounce of truth to it.

Maybe its different for LUTHERANS, but where I live I have bever met a Lutheran.

Wow! Yet you claimed that Lutherans "ESPECIALLY" discourage people from reading them... and yet you've never met even one of the 70 MILLION Lutherans. Wow! THINK about that, my brother. Are you embarrassed? Do you see a problem?

And you accused ME of being "The prime example of a Lutheran who discourages people from reading them." And yes, that claim stood for a very, very long time.

And just TODAY, you added two more incredible claims about me... not even attempted to be substantiated... but you are "taking leave" so that you can run from them. Hum.


This is what we've been talking about for over 2 years with you.... you have no data. NOW, after two years of this, NOW you finally admit what you've always denied but was obvious.

SO I AM SO SORRY YOU NEED PROOF OF EVERYTHING I EVER SAY

... only if truth matters. But I think that's the issue here.


YES, when you say such remarkable, stunning, shocking claims - even at PEOPLE (like me) - divisive, condemning and often very unhistorical claims.... yes, truth matters. If you don't know it's true, maybe you shouldn't say it. Especially in a public forum like this. Think about that. That's all we've been asking of you for 2 plus years now.



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[Josiah]

@Andy

Again, yet again, still one more time...

Here's my position:

There are a number of books beyond "the 66" that numerous Christians have cherished, used, quoted, even called "Scripture" and placed into collections with "the 66" ... books perhaps 7 to 20 or so in number.... historical and important and helpful books, sometimes called "Deuterocanonical" or "Apocrypha." But these books have largely been forgotten among a few Christians today, especially modern American "Evangelicals." All would be blessed to embrace them again, blessed if all were encouraged to read them - perhaps not as fully canonical but certainly as inspirational and helpful."

And I've added, "Luther included 8 of these in his German translation (although sharing his own personal opinion that such are not fully canonical, not equal in every sense to the rest). My own Bible, published by the Lutheran Concordia Publishing House, has these 8 in it, along with numerous notes and cross references to the OT and NT. And my own Lutheran parish did a 6 month study of them. They are included in some Lutheran lectionaries, and there is a Lutheran daily lectionary exclusively of them."

What part of "All would be blessed to embrace them, blessed if all were encouraged to read them - perhaps not as fully canonical but certainly as inspirational and helpful" don't you understand?


Now read post 42






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[Lanman87]

But no I don't have DATA but rarely do believers read their Bibles

I would say it depends upon how you define believers. If you say believers are anyone who says they believe in God then you are probably right.

If you define believers as people who profess belief in Christ and regularly attend church then I would say that a large percentage of believers read their Bibles regularly and most are in regular Bible studies of some kind or another. Evangelical Sunday School and small groups typically pick a book of the Bible and has study material where the class not only reads the Bible but studies the Bible for deeper meaning.

Even before becoming a self identified theology nerd a few years ago, I had read the Bible through and undergone deep studies of Biblical text and various points throughout my life. Even in elementary school and high school (many years ago) we got into deep Biblical discussions.

So no, I think believers who are active church goers do read their Bible regularly, maybe not daily,but certainly on a regular basis.

Now the person who says "I'm a Christian" but only shows up to church on Easter and Christmas and lives a life with little regard to sin. Then they probably rarely read the Bible. And they probably do not have a living faith either.

 

[NathanH83]

Mention "Tobit" or the "Apocrypha" in general?

If you mention the Apocrypha, I know tons of Baptists who are aware of what that means to them.

It seems you want them to be better versed in specific books then? Not just the Apocrypha as a general topic?

Most Christians I know are aware that the “Apocryphal” books are the extra books that Catholics authored and added to the Bible in the 1500’s.

But most of the Christians I know are not well versed in these books, and are unaware that Maccabees is actually real Jewish history from before the time of Christ which Jews authored and added to their Jewish translation, which forms the basis of Hanukkah, which Daniel prophesied about, and which John 10:22 references. They aren’t aware of the men tortured in 2 Maccabees 7, and won’t be able to connect the dots to Hebrews 11:35 which references it.

Most Christians I know are vaguely somewhat familiar with the idea that Maccabees promotes the idea of Purgatory. But they’re not well versed enough to know that it doesn’t actually promote purgatory, but simply promotes the resurrection.

Most Christians I know probably won’t even recognize the names of Tobit or Judith, never read them, and are definitely not well versed enough in them to know that the people in Tobit entertained an angel unaware, and are therefore not able to connect the dots with Hebrews 13:2.

Maybe Baptists are more aware of these things because Baptist preachers actually teach on this stuff. My Pentecostal church just about never mentioned anything about it. Most sermons were anointed, and encouraging people to get saved and speak in tongues. But after years and years of Sunday sermons, our pastor never said anything about the Apocrypha, either for or against. Sunday school, youth groups, cell groups, church retreats, church camps, church conferences. Nothing about the apocrypha in all those years of ministry. I rarely, if ever, remember hearing anything about it whatsoever.

But, it was all pentecostal/Assemblies of God. I know there’s baptists who teach on the Apocrypha and Septuagint a lot more. I’ve listened to pastor Steven Anderson rant and rave against it, so certainly his congregation is at least familiar with the issues surrounding it, though their pastor has poisoned them against it.

 

[NathanH83]

Im glad I discovered him through your channel! Thanks

Seriously? Dang. I didn’t realized you learned of him because of my channel. I guess I just figured you already knew him. Not sure why I thought that.

 

[Lamb]

Most Christians I know are aware that the “Apocryphal” books are the extra books that Catholics authored and added to the Bible in the 1500’s.

But most of the Christians I know are not well versed in these books, and are unaware that Maccabees is actually real Jewish history from before the time of Christ which Jews authored and added to their Jewish translation, which forms the basis of Hanukkah, which Daniel prophesied about, and which John 10:22 references. They aren’t aware of the men tortured in 2 Maccabees 7, and won’t be able to connect the dots to Hebrews 11:35 which references it.

Most Christians I know are vaguely somewhat familiar with the idea that Maccabees promotes the idea of Purgatory. But they’re not well versed enough to know that it doesn’t actually promote purgatory, but simply promotes the resurrection.

Most Christians I know probably won’t even recognize the names of Tobit or Judith, never read them, and are definitely not well versed enough in them to know that the people in Tobit entertained an angel unaware, and are therefore not able to connect the dots with Hebrews 13:2.

Maybe Baptists are more aware of these things because Baptist preachers actually teach on this stuff. My Pentecostal church just about never mentioned anything about it. Most sermons were anointed, and encouraging people to get saved and speak in tongues. But after years and years of Sunday sermons, our pastor never said anything about the Apocrypha, either for or against. Sunday school, youth groups, cell groups, church retreats, church camps, church conferences. Nothing about the apocrypha in all those years of ministry. I rarely, if ever, remember hearing anything about it whatsoever.

But, it was all pentecostal/Assemblies of God. I know there’s baptists who teach on the Apocrypha and Septuagint a lot more. I’ve listened to pastor Steven Anderson rant and rave against it, so certainly his congregation is at least familiar with the issues surrounding it, though their pastor has poisoned them against it.

The reason they aren't "well versed" is because those books aren't considered canon and they're focusing on God's Word instead. But most Christians I know have heard of the Apocrypha and are aware of what they are.