A question alluding to baptist church format or etiquette of elders...

[tango]

well for a start lets not leap the situation into the topic of sin.. someone getting things wrong in the way they are handling things not should automatically be considered "sin full" .

I never said it was "sin full" as in "full of sin", I said it was abusive. How would you describe it as anything other than abuse for an elder to claim an authority they don't possess, then criticise people for not submitting to them?

love seeks the best first .. not the worst .

Can't argue with that, but it's not relevant to the topic here. If an elder has overstepped their position and claimed an authority far beyond what they actually possess they need to be corrected. Isn't it seeking the best for the elder to correct him in love before someone else corrects him more publicly and less lovingly?

we are not talking about pharisees we are speaking about fellow brothers and sisters .. the desire should NEVER be to bring about there fall or topple them from position

Where did I say anything about bringing about their fall or toppling them? If they are out of line they need to be corrected, if they refuse correction maybe they should be removed from their position if they are going to continue to abuse the congregation.

but only to love them in Godly love . and the lord is far better than we ar at confronting the heart ..we must have faith in him first and foremost . we must be considerate in love for the entire congregation..

How do we love the congregation by allowing an abusive elder to continue to abuse the congregation?

what good would it accomplish for all if we decimate an already small congregation with contention and bickerings

This is just another strawman. We're not talking of petty contention and bickerings, we're talking of an elder abusing what authority they have and criticising a church member who has done nothing wrong. That's totally different to bickering over who gets to bring the flowers on Sunday or whether old Mrs Jones should wear the same hat as Mrs Smith.

.. we would do nothing more then exactly what the enemy wants of us . this is not a scenario where an elder is secretly committing adultery or something ..
leaping to extremes is not a wise course of action. these people love the lord very much.. they will be corrected by his love as they continue in him..

Who said anything about elders committing adultery? My point was that Jesus told people to stop sinning, he didn't pussyfoot around the situation hoping they would just figure it out for themselves or duck important issues in case someone got upset.

What the enemy would want is for Christians to be damaged by whatever means it takes. Of course we need to be sensitive when dealing with situations but we can't allow abusive situations to go unchecked because we're afraid that the devil might gain from it. Nobody is talking about leaping to extremes either - that's just another strawman. How is correcting someone "leaping to extremes"?

we must be patient and enduring in love toward one another .

With respect, your post seems to be very long on fine-sounding spiritual rhetoric and very short on relevance to the topic at hand. Patience and love for one another don't provide a license to abuse each other, or to turn a blind eye to abuse in the hope the abuser will be corrected by God absent any human involvement. If we took that approach we might as well stop going out and preaching the gospel because anyone who seeks the truth will find it and anyone who doesn't won't listen anyway.

 

[Alithis]

I never said it was "sin full" as in "full of sin", I said it was abusive. How would you describe it as anything other than abuse for an elder to claim an authority they don't possess, then criticise people for not submitting to them?



Can't argue with that, but it's not relevant to the topic here. If an elder has overstepped their position and claimed an authority far beyond what they actually possess they need to be corrected. Isn't it seeking the best for the elder to correct him in love before someone else corrects him more publicly and less lovingly?



Where did I say anything about bringing about their fall or toppling them? If they are out of line they need to be corrected, if they refuse correction maybe they should be removed from their position if they are going to continue to abuse the congregation.



How do we love the congregation by allowing an abusive elder to continue to abuse the congregation?



This is just another strawman. We're not talking of petty contention and bickerings, we're talking of an elder abusing what authority they have and criticising a church member who has done nothing wrong. That's totally different to bickering over who gets to bring the flowers on Sunday or whether old Mrs Jones should wear the same hat as Mrs Smith.



Who said anything about elders committing adultery? My point was that Jesus told people to stop sinning, he didn't pussyfoot around the situation hoping they would just figure it out for themselves or duck important issues in case someone got upset.

What the enemy would want is for Christians to be damaged by whatever means it takes. Of course we need to be sensitive when dealing with situations but we can't allow abusive situations to go unchecked because we're afraid that the devil might gain from it. Nobody is talking about leaping to extremes either - that's just another strawman. How is correcting someone "leaping to extremes"?



With respect, your post seems to be very long on fine-sounding spiritual rhetoric and very short on relevance to the topic at hand. Patience and love for one another don't provide a license to abuse each other, or to turn a blind eye to abuse in the hope the abuser will be corrected by God absent any human involvement. If we took that approach we might as well stop going out and preaching the gospel because anyone who seeks the truth will find it and anyone who doesn't won't listen anyway.

I think your over dissecting posts again .and overcomplicating the matter.this is a singular incident not a repetative abuse. If you wish to not ignore verses then dont ignor the ones where love covers a multitude of sin. These elders may have done more good for the gospel then you ,i and 100 others collectivly.we must allow for the existance of a massive misundestanding. Not dive in Like a bull at a gate.

 

[tango]

I think your over dissecting posts again .and overcomplicating the matter.this is a singular incident not a repetative abuse.

Of course, it's all my fault. Sorry for having an opinion.

Doesn't repetitive abuse start out with singular abuse? Isn't it better to nip problems in the bud before they get out of hand? If this is a situation that is known is it a one-off, or is it part of a pattern that is only partially seen? Just in case there's any doubt I obviously don't know the answer, but it would make sense to find out, no?

If you wish to not ignore verses then dont ignor the ones where love covers a multitude of sin. These elders may have done more good for the gospel then you ,i and 100 others collectivly.we must allow for the existance of a massive misundestanding. Not dive in Like a bull at a gate.

You're throwing up more strawmen and there's little point having a discussion if you're not going to address the things I actually said. Where did I talk of going in like a bull at a gate? How does talking of correcting people in love turn into "like a bull at a gate"? You know, things like where I asked how we love people by not addressing abuses could have been read as a suggestion to deal with it in love, so there's really no need to comment on love covering a multitude of sins. The idea is that we correct in love, we forgive and forget in love, then we move forward in love. It isn't loving to anyone to hide things under the carpet and never talk about them.

Likewise when I talked of fulfilling the call of Gal 6:1 how exactly did that get turned into anything about bulls and gates? Gal 6:1 talks of restoring another in a spirit of gentleness and humility. That's not very much like a bull at a gate. But feel free to keep up with the rhetoric that's nothing to do with what I posted. Honestly, I'd rather discuss the issue and see people addressing the points the other actually made rather than strawmen but sometimes that can be fun too.

 

[Alithis]

im not addressing them because they are to many ,too varied . feet o the ground reality is..
it is a very small congregation .. going in like a bull at a gate in a matter that does not warrant a confrontational approach would risk blowing the church apart.
paryt# 1 would rather rather remain unrecognized then to aid the spread of prideful descent ..when they can rather commit it into the hands of the lord and pray his blessing upon the party in question , that his perfect wil wil e one and if their ways are in error he will show that to them ..because they are ever being perfect by him all the time anyway .. the holy Spirit does not sleep nor slumber but works tirelessly in all of us to transform us into the image of our Lord ,JESUS .

 

[Hammster]

ok so follow this if you can .. its a scenario from some time back that raised my eyebrow and ..haha my eyebrow hasn't dropped back down yet .

party #1 .. begins attending a small baptist church .
after about 2 years others new folks join in also .some come some leave , as happens .

party#1 meet new party #2 and a new friendship begins to quickly form .

party #1 learns that party@ is expecting a child and is not in a strong financial position .
so Party #1 decides to hold a baby shower to bless party#2 because party#2 really have next to nothing (being new to the country -refugees out of what was Burma)

party#1 gives out invites to every one at the little church and throws a great little baby shower a few weeks later and party #2 is blessed and openly gives glory to God ,for they were praying fervently for the things they did not have and needed with a new baby on the way and ALL those prayers got answered .

and all is well... THEN- ( and this part is a lesson in the harmful danger of GOSSIP of ANY KIND ) -party numberr#1 gets told by parties #3 & #4 .. that other parties, being elders in the church, are very unhappy that said baby shower was organized without their foreknowledge or approval ...

PArty#1 is stunned to hear this and very confused - party number #1 met a new friends ,saw a need and responded to the need in Love -party#1 is oblivious to any requirement to seek prior acknowledgement and approval to act out of love toward new friends( ..being partry#2 )

Is this a normal demand made upon baptist congregational attendees ? or is there an underlying "control issue" present .. ? ? ?

as far as i understand, a pastor's job is to prepare the flock to do the ministry of the lord to every one else and the elders assist in thos b ministering to the flock . in which case the elder should be rejoicing that part#1 was doing exactly what ALL congregational parties should be doing .
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(footnote: parties #3 & #4 were SO WRONG to repeat that information to parties #1 ... but its suspected it was said to them in hope that it would get back to Party#1 - and it did .

It's difficult to determine who's in the right because this amounts to gossip, and we have no way of addressing the elders and finding out what the issues are. On the surface it appears the elders are in the wrong. But without all of the information, it's impossible to make that determination.

 

[Brighten04]

May I be blunt. The planning of the baby shower was not church business and therefore did not need the elders approval. This is a cultish response from the elders imo. I attend a Baptist church and we don't report all of our plans and activities to our elders. That she invited them to come was all the notification the elders needed.

 

[tango]

im not addressing them because they are to many ,too varied . feet o the ground reality is..

So you don't feel like addressing any of my points because you don't want to address all of them? Really? Is that the best you can do? Especially since...

it is a very small congregation .. going in like a bull at a gate in a matter that does not warrant a confrontational approach would risk blowing the church apart.

I already addressed this but perhaps you didn't actually read my post. I never said anything about a bull at a gate, or about a confrontational approach, or about blowing the church apart. If an elder can't be lovingly corrected when their behavior has become abusive without blowing the church apart then the church has bigger problems than one elder being out of line.

paryt# 1 would rather rather remain unrecognized then to aid the spread of prideful descent ..when they can rather commit it into the hands of the lord and pray his blessing upon the party in question , that his perfect wil wil e one and if their ways are in error he will show that to them ..because they are ever being perfect by him all the time anyway .. the holy Spirit does not sleep nor slumber but works tirelessly in all of us to transform us into the image of our Lord ,JESUS .

If Party #1 would prefer to forget about the whole thing that is their prerogative. Correcting an issue in the church is nothing to do with pride (although I have no idea what "prideful descent" actually is). There's nothing prideful about wanting to see a bad situation corrected if it's done in love. Even the idea that seeking to correct a situation is a pride issue suggests there are major issues going on, either in the church or in your account of it all.

The rest of this is just fine-sounding spiritual rhetoric that adds lots of waffle without adding any substance to the discussion.

 

[Alithis]

May I be blunt. The planning of the baby shower was not church business and therefore did not need the elders approval. This is a cultish response from the elders imo. I attend a Baptist church and we don't report all of our plans and activities to our elders. That she invited them to come was all the notification the elders needed.

i agree .. however how party#1 responds is of equal importance . because offense comes in all shapes and sizes and we MUST forgive .

its been observed that some things are ..like the way things are being done . that there is a "grip" on the running of things that IMO needs to be let go of in order for the congregation to grow .
but i do not say that as one who desires to take up the position ..(haha id be more of a jonah .. " and run .... )

 

[Alithis]

So you don't feel like addressing any of my points because you don't want to address all of them? Really? Is that the best you can do? Especially since...



I already addressed this but perhaps you didn't actually read my post. I never said anything about a bull at a gate, or about a confrontational approach, or about blowing the church apart. If an elder can't be lovingly corrected when their behavior has become abusive without blowing the church apart then the church has bigger problems than one elder being out of line.



If Party #1 would prefer to forget about the whole thing that is their prerogative. Correcting an issue in the church is nothing to do with pride (although I have no idea what "prideful descent" actually is). There's nothing prideful about wanting to see a bad situation corrected if it's done in love. Even the idea that seeking to correct a situation is a pride issue suggests there are major issues going on, either in the church or in your account of it all.

The rest of this is just fine-sounding spiritual rhetoric that adds lots of waffle without adding any substance to the discussion.

oops embarrsing hhaa .. DISSENT .. lol not descent

ok ... tact change - because you and i keep going at odds ..and im not sure why and dont want to keep doing that .

so -- you said

If an elder can't be lovingly corrected when their behavior has become abusive without blowing the church apart then the church has bigger problems than one elder being out of line.

yes .. your right .perhaps party#1 needs to be more specific in seeking the lord as to what the correct and wise step is .. instead of dogmatically considering only the passive option .

 

[tango]

oops embarrsing hhaa .. DISSENT .. lol not descent

Oops... makes more sense now

 

[Alithis]

It's difficult to determine who's in the right because this amounts to gossip, and we have no way of addressing the elders and finding out what the issues are. On the surface it appears the elders are in the wrong. But without all of the information, it's impossible to make that determination.

great observation - the entire scenario would have remained unknown and most parties oblivious to it but for that middle party waggling the tongue ...