A question alluding to baptist church format or etiquette of elders...

[Alithis]

ok so follow this if you can .. its a scenario from some time back that raised my eyebrow and ..haha my eyebrow hasn't dropped back down yet .

party #1 .. begins attending a small baptist church .
after about 2 years others new folks join in also .some come some leave , as happens .

party#1 meet new party #2 and a new friendship begins to quickly form .

party #1 learns that party@ is expecting a child and is not in a strong financial position .
so Party #1 decides to hold a baby shower to bless party#2 because party#2 really have next to nothing (being new to the country -refugees out of what was Burma)

party#1 gives out invites to every one at the little church and throws a great little baby shower a few weeks later and party #2 is blessed and openly gives glory to God ,for they were praying fervently for the things they did not have and needed with a new baby on the way and ALL those prayers got answered .

and all is well... THEN- ( and this part is a lesson in the harmful danger of GOSSIP of ANY KIND ) -party numberr#1 gets told by parties #3 & #4 .. that other parties, being elders in the church, are very unhappy that said baby shower was organized without their foreknowledge or approval ...

PArty#1 is stunned to hear this and very confused - party number #1 met a new friends ,saw a need and responded to the need in Love -party#1 is oblivious to any requirement to seek prior acknowledgement and approval to act out of love toward new friends( ..being partry#2 )

Is this a normal demand made upon baptist congregational attendees ? or is there an underlying "control issue" present .. ? ? ?

as far as i understand, a pastor's job is to prepare the flock to do the ministry of the lord to every one else and the elders assist in thos b ministering to the flock . in which case the elder should be rejoicing that part#1 was doing exactly what ALL congregational parties should be doing .
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(footnote: parties #3 & #4 were SO WRONG to repeat that information to parties #1 ... but its suspected it was said to them in hope that it would get back to Party#1 - and it did .

 

[Lamb]

Why didn't the elders go to Party #1 directly as scripture tells them to do?

I'm not Baptist, but it could possibly be that party #1 didn't even confer with anyone before planning the shower, hence, disrupting other plans or schedules for that day at the church? Could another event or meeting have been planned for that day?

Sometimes we forget, when we're doing something wonderful for someone, to go the proper route when planning. Even though the church building is for the congregation to use, some churches have a secretary who keeps track on a calendar of things happening there so did Party #1 get put on the schedule or just assume it was okay?

There are a lot of unknowns here

 

[Alithis]

Why didn't the elders go to Party #1 directly as scripture tells them to do?

I'm not Baptist, but it could possibly be that party #1 didn't even confer with anyone before planning the shower, hence, disrupting other plans or schedules for that day at the church? Could another event or meeting have been planned for that day?

Sometimes we forget, when we're doing something wonderful for someone, to go the proper route when planning. Even though the church building is for the congregation to use, some churches have a secretary who keeps track on a calendar of things happening there so did Party #1 get put on the schedule or just assume it was okay?

There are a lot of unknowns here

its a good question in regard to a double up of plans .but on the other point - the function was organised and held at the home of party#2 ... not the church .
and no ,party#1 did not confer. but were oblivious of any need to do so ... when one helps out new friends with intent to bless them one ,i always thought .. just does it .

and the elders did attend the baby shower . and said elders did a very strange thing ... the following sunday they mentioned the wonderful baby shower that "they" held for patry#2 ... this was bemusing ..

albeit bygone now . but yes there is something to be learned by party#1 in being more communicative in regard to planning . however when party#1 was approached by "pastor" with view to "organising christmas" ... this was quickly reversed by said elders ( a decision which was willingly submitted to by party#1 ).. ( I should have added that there were incidents of number which caused the resultant eye brow raising haha .)

 

[psalms 91]

I would probably leave that church

 

[Lamb]

Oh, my! If party #1 had it at a home, it's not really something they should be complaining about. We're blessed to be a blessing.

The only issues that could have been (without really knowing) is that Party #1 called it a church party? If the recipient of the party had a sinful background then the elders wouldn't want that sin celebrated (there are soooo many scenarios that come to mind as to how the recipient ended up pregnant and people throwing a fit that there was a party instead of privately donating). But again, if the person was repentant, then by all means, throw the party and be Little Christs, showing love to one another.

 

[seekingsolace]

first world problems.

 

[Alithis]

first world problems.

haha true enough .... mind you i have observed human behaviour through out all "worlds" to be mundanely similar

 

[Alithis]

Oh, my! If party #1 had it at a home, it's not really something they should be complaining about. We're blessed to be a blessing.

The only issues that could have been (without really knowing) is that Party #1 called it a church party? If the recipient of the party had a sinful background then the elders wouldn't want that sin celebrated (there are soooo many scenarios that come to mind as to how the recipient ended up pregnant and people throwing a fit that there was a party instead of privately donating). But again, if the person was repentant, then by all means, throw the party and be Little Christs, showing love to one another.

no issues there either .. party#2( being the recipients ).. are refugees ,married and christian and it was not referred to as "church party " .
your beginning to see the cause of my raised eyebrow haha

 

[king of the unknown]

So years ago at a different church I attended the laws and rules of the church excluded new people from actually becoming members and many the members of the church became almost a gang rather then a loving group. They ended up throwing out the pastor because he disagreed with one of the members. The whole thing was terrible but good things did come from it.

Anyway this story oddly reminds me of the Pharisees in the bible. Even though the elders and leaders of the church are suppose to be those who are adult Christians many times they are chosen for other reasons and even if there are good reasons, sometimes they are still human. If I personally was in this situation I would have called them out on both taking credit for the good deeds party 1 did and also for being upset about something that had nothing to do with them.

I feel like what these elders did is disrespectful, manipulative and possible toxic to the church as a whole.

 

[Alithis]

So years ago at a different church I attended the laws and rules of the church excluded new people from actually becoming members and many the members of the church became almost a gang rather then a loving group. They ended up throwing out the pastor because he disagreed with one of the members. The whole thing was terrible but good things did come from it.

Anyway this story oddly reminds me of the Pharisees in the bible. Even though the elders and leaders of the church are suppose to be those who are adult Christians many times they are chosen for other reasons and even if there are good reasons, sometimes they are still human. If I personally was in this situation I would have called them out on both taking credit for the good deeds party 1 did and also for being upset about something that had nothing to do with them.

I feel like what these elders did is disrespectful, manipulative and possible toxic to the church as a whole.

well that sort of sentiment does try to raise its head .. however party#1 can learn much from it about overlooking in love and what does it matter if they took credit for it .the lord knows and the lord rewards .that part was never a concern because by taking credit "good works " were kept secret so the right hand did not know what the left hand was doing -so to speak .

that wrongs are evident is not really the issue .. we must always forgive regardless so there is no record kept of wrong ..that's love .

Its is just the underlying goings on that must be present to cause the scenario to take place in the first which concern me .
we have noticed a certain amount of " back patting " occurs on sundays .. things done over the week are repeated on sunday and it just doesn't "feel " right - not that feelings are all that important lol (learned that recently .) .
its just a little weird to me to hear people say .."in the week past we did this and that and we helped such and such .". -it has a sense of "look how wonderful we are "..

mind you - the scenario you have shared of a little "club" that wont let others in has a familiar ring to it .. these folks i think may need to learn to let go and let god move through whomever he chooses to move through ,to both build the church and reach the lost . (and no lol party#1 does not desire their calling haha)

 

[Alithis]

I would probably leave that church

and take our imperfections to another congregation and add to their problems haha ??? no i think that's not a good solution . unity in the spirit is always under attack from the enemy .. love in christ and forgiveness is always the great overcomer


as the old saying goes .. "i found the perfect church congregation .. and then i went and joined it .... so much for the perfect congregation ..

 

[king of the unknown]

well that sort of sentiment does try to raise its head .. however party#1 can learn from much from it about overlooking in love and what does it matter if they took credit for it .the lord knows and the lord rewards .that part was never a concern because by taking credit "good works " were kept secret so the right hand did not know what the left hand was doing -so to speak .

that wrongs are evident is not really the issue .. we must always forgive regardless so there is no record kept of wrong ..that's love .

Its is just the underlying goings on that must be present to cause the scenario to take place in the first which concern me .
we have noticed a certain amount of " back patting " occurs on sundays .. things done over the week are repeated on sunday and it just doesn't "feel " right - not that feelings are all that important lol (learned that recently .) .
its just a little weird to me to hear people say .."in the week past we did this and that and we helped such and such .". -it has a sense of "look how wonderful we are "..

mind you - the scenario you have shared of a little "club" that wont let others in has a familiar ring to it .. these folks i think may need to learn to let go and let god move through whomever he chooses to move through ,to both build the church and reach the lost . (and no lol party#1 does not desire their calling haha)

I understand the ideas of love and forgiveness but not standing up for the problem means most like it will happen again and maybe worse. People in power will do anything to stay in power and that isn't what a church is about.

I am sorry if I seem really upset about it but I have seen it first hand over and over about one or a group of people because obsessed with such things and destroying the church. The last thing I want is a church to die because people forget it is all about God. Not about the church looking good, not about pleasing the people in the church, and not about following the imaginary laws that some churches make up.

Again I am sorry if I seem upset and I am not made at any of you guys.

 

[Alithis]

I understand the ideas of love and forgiveness but not standing up for the problem means most like it will happen again and maybe worse. People in power will do anything to stay in power and that isn't what a church is about.

I am sorry if I seem really upset about it but I have seen it first hand over and over about one or a group of people because obsessed with such things and destroying the church. The last thing I want is a church to die because people forget it is all about God. Not about the church looking good, not about pleasing the people in the church, and not about following the imaginary laws that some churches make up.

Again I am sorry if I seem upset and I am not made at any of you guys.

oouh no you haven't upset me in the slightest ..iv just learned over the years that there are more powerful ways to confront then actually confronting ... David in the bible teaches us this very well when he rightfully is to be king he is blocked by saul for 30 odd years ,, but with every opportunity to deal to saul he does not take it .. but leaves it always in GODS HANDS .
some time back i suggested starting an evening prayer meeting open to all -young and old single and married -an all welcome prayer meeting . the idea was shot down .I could have got all offended and sulked .. but iv learned that sometimes the lord tests us when we least expect it .. so i went and prayed and gave it to the lord and did not raise the topic again.. a few months later ..it suddenly came up and i was given the go ahead .

So you see we may confront the intellect .. but it is always better to trust god because he can confront THE HEART of a person and we MUST at ALL TIMES desire the best for others ,esteeming all others as more deserving of it then ourselves -- it is LOVE .

 

[Alithis]

having said that ..im off to visit elsewhere this morning haha .. but that's no big deal.. having committed my way to the lord i know he is directing my path.
He ALWAYS has and ALWAYS Will

recently he did so with healing .. i was concerned and had become fearful for a head problem .. the Drs made an appointment for me to "discuss " antidepressants and other courses of anti stress things ..
i had been praying asking the lord what on earth is going on with my head -it was a bit scary for months ..
my appointment for monday was made on the friday afternoon .. on the way back to work i prayed and said lord i don't want to trust in man ..man masks symptoms man does not heal (this is me talking about me here -always trust god and Do what HE tells you to do )

that night as i read my bible before i slept the lord spoke to me through the story of the king of israel who having seen the deliverance of the lord in times past .. went and called on a foreign king (man)for help in a present situation -the lord sent the prophet to him who said why have you done this was the lord not able to help you in times past why do you now turn to men and not the lord ..
i immediately knew the holy Spirit was speaking to me in regard to what to do in this situation. i said Lord I will look to you. in the weekend i canceled that appointment.. on the tuesday morning after i awoke and the words BE STRONG AND VERY COURAGEOUS were running through my mind even before i awoke .. i even said them out loud ..i wondered about it .then all day every time my head felt odd i did not get worried i spoke Only be strong and very courageous..

The holy Spirit had spoken to my spirit the words of life i needed to hear - i had become weak and fearful and he has reversed it by speaking strength and courage into my life ..over that week i grew stronger and bolder .. now i sit absolutely healed and at peace .
GOD is so good .. he directed my path in the way i should go .. and in this case ..the way was not to man but TO GOD . ouh the wonder of his majestic power at work in us if we will but listen and obey .

 

[tango]

Why didn't the elders go to Party #1 directly as scripture tells them to do?

I'm not Baptist, but it could possibly be that party #1 didn't even confer with anyone before planning the shower, hence, disrupting other plans or schedules for that day at the church? Could another event or meeting have been planned for that day?

Sometimes we forget, when we're doing something wonderful for someone, to go the proper route when planning. Even though the church building is for the congregation to use, some churches have a secretary who keeps track on a calendar of things happening there so did Party #1 get put on the schedule or just assume it was okay?

There are a lot of unknowns here

Baptist or not, why do the elders have to know about a baby shower let alone give their approval? The elders are there for spiritual guidance when sought out, not to impose their will on the church and demand that every little thing be cleared with them first.

Even if it had been in the church building, if it went through the normal booking process the elders shouldn't need to vet every single event. The church should have a standard policy of what is and is not acceptable precisely so the elders don't have to deal with day-to-day stuff like that. And if it was at someone's home there's even less reason for the elders to be involved.

Honestly, if an elder of any church I was attending started trying to tell me what I could and couldn't do in my own house I'd make it very clear to them that it was none of their business. The only reason an elder would have cause to intervene would be if a church member had fallen into flagrant sin. So if I was holding regular orgies at my house it would be reasonable for an elder to point out why such behavior was sinful and make it clear that my membership would be cancelled if I didn't stop and repent. Unless the activity is clearly sinful (and it's hard to see how a baby shower can possibly be seen as sinful) the elders get to mind their own business.

 

[Alithis]

perhaps .. however learning to submit to the authority of office is important under being submissive one to another . sometimes we simply must be as a spirit of humility is very acceptable to the lord and if those in office use their office wrongly God will not wink and eye at that .but that's up to God .

ours is to pray in love for those in office that they might walk in the will of God and be protected and blessed always .

submitting to authority is not taught enough in the church and is especially lacking in church youth ..
and teens that become christians with parents who are not need very much to submit to their mother and their father (for this is good and right in the lord ) even if their parent says to them "you cant go to church" .. they should submit to that and give it to the lord in prayer and do everything the mother of father asks of them and do it with a wiling joyful heart as if it is God asking them (i speak of demand and chores and what ever ) after doing that ,not only will the parent allow them to go to church .,.they may ask if they can come too because they will be convinced of the sincerity of the gospel displayed in the teens life . rebellion in ANY form does not ever glorify God -obedience to God always comes first . so.. we submit to authorities in everything that does not ask us out right to deny our faith .

 

[tango]

perhaps .. however learning to submit to the authority of office is important under being submissive one to another . sometimes we simply must be as a spirit of humility is very acceptable to the lord and if those in office use their office wrongly God will not wink and eye at that .but that's up to God .

ours is to pray in love for those in office that they might walk in the will of God and be protected and blessed always .

submitting to authority is not taught enough in the church and is especially lacking in church youth ..
and teens that become christians with parents who are not need very much to submit to their mother and their father (for this is good and right in the lord ) even if their parent says to them "you cant go to church" .. they should submit to that and give it to the lord in prayer and do everything the mother of father asks of them and do it with a wiling joyful heart as if it is God asking them (i speak of demand and chores and what ever ) after doing that ,not only will the parent allow them to go to church .,.they may ask if they can come too because they will be convinced of the sincerity of the gospel displayed in the teens life . rebellion in ANY form does not ever glorify God -obedience to God always comes first . so.. we submit to authorities in everything that does not ask us out right to deny our faith .

Up to a point, but only when those in authority aren't abusing it. Jesus didn't submit to the Pharisees after all.

We need to show humility but there's a difference between being humble and being a doormat. Jesus allowed himself to be crucified but still threw the money-changers out of the temple.

 

[Alithis]

Up to a point, but only when those in authority aren't abusing it. Jesus didn't submit to the Pharisees after all.

We need to show humility but there's a difference between being humble and being a doormat. Jesus allowed himself to be crucified but still threw the money-changers out of the temple.

well i was referring to authority "within" the church . that is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of people. of a person in a position of authority is not listening to the lord .. things can get awkward real fast .. but the remedy is not rebellion .. the remedy is payer that the person may be reconciled to walking in obedience to the Holy Spirit again
in the lord we must always esteem the other s more deserving then ourselves and never try to usurp authority by means of the flesh , as that would be walking i the flesh ..
God is always able and willing to build unity i the body and desires it in us all with a while heart . that we love one another as christ loved us .

 

[tango]

well i was referring to authority "within" the church . that is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of people. of a person in a position of authority is not listening to the lord .. things can get awkward real fast .. but the remedy is not rebellion .. the remedy is payer that the person may be reconciled to walking in obedience to the Holy Spirit again

So how does one fulfil the call of Gal 6:1 to restore another who has fallen into trespass without confronting the sin?

If the sin is allowed to continue without being corrected, or isn't addressed without lots of dancing around the issue and people doing what an abusive leader says to avoid "rebellion", how will the abusive leader ever be corrected? Jesus didn't merely pray that the moneychangers would leave the temple of their own volition, he threw them out.

in the lord we must always esteem the other s more deserving then ourselves and never try to usurp authority by means of the flesh , as that would be walking i the flesh ..

Any chance we could discuss the issues and not constantly make vague comments about "walking in the flesh"?

Nobody is talking about church members usurping authority, it's about not submitting to an authority that doesn't exist. Elders of a church do not have authority to tell us whether or not we're allowed to hold a baby shower so any usurping that is going on here is being done by the elders. Whether we regard them as more deserving than ourselves or not is irrelevant to the problem that when one claims an authority they do not have nobody is under any calling to submit to the non-existent authority.

God is always able and willing to build unity i the body and desires it in us all with a while heart . that we love one another as christ loved us .

True, but not relevant to the issue here. We can love someone while still pointing out their errors. If anything if we're not willing to point out an error like this then our claim to love the other lacks credibility. We do nobody any favors by submitting to their claimed authority that doesn't exist because all it will do is enable the abusive behavior, effectively permit it to continue, all the while living under a burdensome yoke that is unnecessary. Christ loved us, and he wasn't averse to pointing out sin. He didn't say to the woman caught in adultery "no worries, off you go", he said "go and sin no more". He didn't submit to the Pharisees' requirements while praying they would see the light, he corrected them and often publicly.

 

[Alithis]

So how does one fulfil the call of Gal 6:1 to restore another who has fallen into trespass without confronting the sin?

If the sin is allowed to continue without being corrected, or isn't addressed without lots of dancing around the issue and people doing what an abusive leader says to avoid "rebellion", how will the abusive leader ever be corrected? Jesus didn't merely pray that the moneychangers would leave the temple of their own volition, he threw them out.



Any chance we could discuss the issues and not constantly make vague comments about "walking in the flesh"?

Nobody is talking about church members usurping authority, it's about not submitting to an authority that doesn't exist. Elders of a church do not have authority to tell us whether or not we're allowed to hold a baby shower so any usurping that is going on here is being done by the elders. Whether we regard them as more deserving than ourselves or not is irrelevant to the problem that when one claims an authority they do not have nobody is under any calling to submit to the non-existent authority.



True, but not relevant to the issue here. We can love someone while still pointing out their errors. If anything if we're not willing to point out an error like this then our claim to love the other lacks credibility. We do nobody any favors by submitting to their claimed authority that doesn't exist because all it will do is enable the abusive behavior, effectively permit it to continue, all the while living under a burdensome yoke that is unnecessary. Christ loved us, and he wasn't averse to pointing out sin. He didn't say to the woman caught in adultery "no worries, off you go", he said "go and sin no more". He didn't submit to the Pharisees' requirements while praying they would see the light, he corrected them and often publicly.

well for a start lets not leap the situation into the topic of sin.. someone getting things wrong in the way they are handling things not should automatically be considered "sin full" . love seeks the best first .. not the worst .
we are not talking about pharisees we are speaking about fellow brothers and sisters .. the desire should NEVER be to bring about there fall or topple them from position ,but only to love them in Godly love . and the lord is far better than we ar at confronting the heart ..we must have faith in him first and foremost . we must be considerate in love for the entire congregation.. what good would it accomplish for all if we decimate an already small congregation with contention and bickerings .. we would do nothing more then exactly what the enemy wants of us . this is not a scenario where an elder is secretly committing adultery or something ..
leaping to extremes is not a wise course of action. these people love the lord very much.. they will be corrected by his love as they continue in him..
we must be patient and enduring in love toward one another .